4 ms·

Ask HN: A friend has an offer from an ethically questionable company

4 points by jMyles 11y ago

Hola HN. I'm in a situation that I think a lot of us have been in, but I've never really seen advice on what to do. For the second time in a year, I have a friend who is considering an offer from a company whose vertical is highly questionable. Specifically, this company provides intelligence on the "dark web," ostensibly tracking (and I quote) "terrorists and their supporters." They literally boast about working with the NSA for the past few years, at a time when, as we all know, parts of NSA SigInt were wholesale criminal operations, illegally spying on people. Their "news" section is full of glorification of war and state intrusion. It almost reads like a parody. My friend currently has a job at a much more wholesome company, but, as you might guess, this offer constitutes a substantial pay raise. My main concerns are that my friend might be asked to do something really horrible and, due to a confidentiality agreement, might not discuss the matter even if it becomes haunting. Obviously I want to be supportive and help my friend make a decision that is sustainable over the long-term. The hardest part, I think, is distinguish what I do in these situations (decline without a second thought) and what's best for a friend. I don't know every detail of the kinds of opportunities my friends have, and I realize that I'm in a pretty privileged position even within the open source / python communities; the last thing I want to be is callous. Have you ever been in this situation? What, if any, advice did you offer?

staticautomatic 11y ago
Your friend's ethics aren't really your business except insofar as you get to decide whether you want to remain friends with him/her. Let them join Palantir (I assume). Perhaps they'll see from the inside that it's gross. If they think it's amazing that they're fighting the baddies while snooping on your gmail then you can always just slowly break off the friendship. I think this is obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y
- tptacek 11y ago
  The description they've provided sounds nothing whatsoever like Palantir.
  - staticautomatic 11y ago
    You're joking, right?
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Exactly what is it that you think Palantir's products actually do?
      - kasey_junk 11y ago
        Provide liquidity & keep the internet free?
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    For reference, the palantir news page that glorifies war: https://www.palantir.com/media/ https://www.palantir.com/media/
- jMyles 11y ago
  I'm not questioning my friend's ethics; my friend objects to this work too. There's no hypnosis happening here, it's just a job offer. :-) The question is, how, if at all, can I help my friend think about balancing, on one hand, the ethical implications of working for such a company, and, on the other, gaining a bit more (probably much needed) financial security.
  - staticautomatic 11y ago
    It would seem that dodging the ethical issue entirely is a possibility. Is is not fair to assume that if your friend can get a job with this company, he/she could get a job paying a similar amount at a non-questionable company? Seems the easiest way out from a practical standpoint would be to just seek work elsewhere. I don't think there's any clear rubric for making these kinds of decisions involving ethical quandaries. It's up to your friend to simply make a call about whether it feels right to trade their conscience for money, to put it cynically.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    > my friend objects to this work too. Then he/she shouldn't take the job. Your friend has to live with himself/herself. Don't go in thinking "maybe it won't be so bad; maybe I can live with it". That's just asking for trouble.
jMyles 11y ago
Several people have asked and surmised, so I guess it's worth clarifying: the company in question is not Palantir. It's a company I've never heard of and, to look at their website, lacks even the tact of Palantir - ie, far more flag waving and cultish.
- lovelearning 11y ago
  I found the company quite easily with your search words. This post may be read by someone there and affect your friend's offer or work. I feel you should edit your question to make it less obvious.
  - jMyles 11y ago
    I'm not sure what search phrase you used, but I'm not immediately seeing the company by searching what I've provided. Nevertheless, perhaps editing it is a good idea. I don't see a way to edit the post, though - is there one?
    - mod 11y ago
      https://www.google.com/search?q=%22terrorists+and+their+supporters%22+%22dark+web%22&oq=%22terrorists+and+their+supporters%22+%22dark+web%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22terrorists+and+their+supp... Just for kicks I used what you quoted, and it seems to be the third result.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
rnovak 11y ago
Well, I mean, is he asking for your advice? If not, I really don't see a point in bringing it up, unless maybe you have the type of friendship where you occasionally exchange quips, you might be able to hint at the idea that you're not cool with it. I think the most I'd ever say to a friend in such a situation is: "hey, are you sure you're comfortable with what they do?", phrasing it so that you're genuinely looking out for his best interest.
argonaut 11y ago
If this is Palantir you're talking about (I'm not really sure), I do think your concerns are overblown. I know a some people who work or worked there. 1) Most of Palantir's customers are ordinary companies, local/state governments, other types of organizations, or other federal organizations that are not the CIA/NSA/FBI/DEA/Homeland/TSA/military. You do have to admit that at least for these clients, Palantir can be construed as doing good (e.g. streamlining state government tech or something). 2) Your friend can leave any time. 3) One engineer I know who left after a short stint spoke really highly about the amount of technical growth he got and the amount of responsibility/autonomy he was given as a new employee, in addition to the respect his opinions were given by his peers. It also helps that Palantir has a really great brand name in Silicon Valley. If he truly does want to go there, it does seem almost overly-moralizing to try really hard to convince him not to go, especially if it would really help his career.
fuj 11y ago
Well... this is not really your business, is it? If your friend does not like it, he can easily leave. I do not see the problem here. If you were my friend and I found out that you have been asking this sort of stuff behind my back on such public forum like this, plus, potentially jeopardizing my chances of getting a job since it's not that hard to figure out which company you're talking about, I'd tell you to go take a hike.
chatmasta 11y ago
How about you mind your own business instead of attempting to project your own personal set of ethics onto somebody else?

4 points by jMyles 11y ago

staticautomatic 11y ago

Your friend's ethics aren't really your business except insofar as you get to decide whether you want to remain friends with him/her. Let them join Palantir (I assume). Perhaps they'll see from the inside that it's gross. If they think it's amazing that they're fighting the baddies while snooping on your gmail then you can always just slowly break off the friendship. I think this is obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y

tptacek 11y ago
The description they've provided sounds nothing whatsoever like Palantir.
- staticautomatic 11y ago
  You're joking, right?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Exactly what is it that you think Palantir's products actually do?
    - kasey_junk 11y ago
      Provide liquidity & keep the internet free?
- tedunangst 11y ago
  For reference, the palantir news page that glorifies war: https://www.palantir.com/media/ https://www.palantir.com/media/
jMyles 11y ago
I'm not questioning my friend's ethics; my friend objects to this work too. There's no hypnosis happening here, it's just a job offer. :-) The question is, how, if at all, can I help my friend think about balancing, on one hand, the ethical implications of working for such a company, and, on the other, gaining a bit more (probably much needed) financial security.
- staticautomatic 11y ago
  It would seem that dodging the ethical issue entirely is a possibility. Is is not fair to assume that if your friend can get a job with this company, he/she could get a job paying a similar amount at a non-questionable company? Seems the easiest way out from a practical standpoint would be to just seek work elsewhere. I don't think there's any clear rubric for making these kinds of decisions involving ethical quandaries. It's up to your friend to simply make a call about whether it feels right to trade their conscience for money, to put it cynically.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  > my friend objects to this work too. Then he/she shouldn't take the job. Your friend has to live with himself/herself. Don't go in thinking "maybe it won't be so bad; maybe I can live with it". That's just asking for trouble.

jMyles 11y ago

Several people have asked and surmised, so I guess it's worth clarifying: the company in question is not Palantir. It's a company I've never heard of and, to look at their website, lacks even the tact of Palantir - ie, far more flag waving and cultish.

lovelearning 11y ago
I found the company quite easily with your search words. This post may be read by someone there and affect your friend's offer or work. I feel you should edit your question to make it less obvious.
- jMyles 11y ago
  I'm not sure what search phrase you used, but I'm not immediately seeing the company by searching what I've provided. Nevertheless, perhaps editing it is a good idea. I don't see a way to edit the post, though - is there one?
  - mod 11y ago
    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22terrorists+and+their+supporters%22+%22dark+web%22&oq=%22terrorists+and+their+supporters%22+%22dark+web%22 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22terrorists+and+their+supp... Just for kicks I used what you quoted, and it seems to be the third result.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

rnovak 11y ago

Well, I mean, is he asking for your advice? If not, I really don't see a point in bringing it up, unless maybe you have the type of friendship where you occasionally exchange quips, you might be able to hint at the idea that you're not cool with it. I think the most I'd ever say to a friend in such a situation is: "hey, are you sure you're comfortable with what they do?", phrasing it so that you're genuinely looking out for his best interest.

argonaut 11y ago

If this is Palantir you're talking about (I'm not really sure), I do think your concerns are overblown. I know a some people who work or worked there. 1) Most of Palantir's customers are ordinary companies, local/state governments, other types of organizations, or other federal organizations that are not the CIA/NSA/FBI/DEA/Homeland/TSA/military. You do have to admit that at least for these clients, Palantir can be construed as doing good (e.g. streamlining state government tech or something). 2) Your friend can leave any time. 3) One engineer I know who left after a short stint spoke really highly about the amount of technical growth he got and the amount of responsibility/autonomy he was given as a new employee, in addition to the respect his opinions were given by his peers. It also helps that Palantir has a really great brand name in Silicon Valley. If he truly does want to go there, it does seem almost overly-moralizing to try really hard to convince him not to go, especially if it would really help his career.

fuj 11y ago

Well... this is not really your business, is it? If your friend does not like it, he can easily leave. I do not see the problem here. If you were my friend and I found out that you have been asking this sort of stuff behind my back on such public forum like this, plus, potentially jeopardizing my chances of getting a job since it's not that hard to figure out which company you're talking about, I'd tell you to go take a hike.

chatmasta 11y ago

How about you mind your own business instead of attempting to project your own personal set of ethics onto somebody else?