33 ms·

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were bla

by steven2012 11y ago

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the number of qualified candidates is so small, is not the right way to solve the problem. The only way you will hit higher-than-normal diversity numbers is to reduce hiring standards, which is wrong. The real way to solve it is at the bottom of the funnel, at the elementary, middle and high school levels. By getting more children of all races involved and interested in tech is the only way we truly increase diversity. And that is on us, those of us that have experience in tech. My goal is to try to volunteer to teach young children in economically disadvantaged areas about technology. Of course, I have no idea how to start doing this, and would love suggestions or pointers.

peterwwillis 11y ago
This is exactly the same as saying that the reason women had little power in America before 1920 was because they couldn't vote. Which is true, but completely overlooks why women didn't have the right to vote. Women didn't have power because they were oppressed by men for centuries. Black people don't have "as good an education" because they've been systematically abandoned by the most powerful parts of society for centuries. You could spend 100 million on a program just in my city alone to try to give disadvantaged kids tech lessons. You know what would happen? Nothing, because you haven't addressed the fact that they have to sell dope, hustle or work multiple jobs just to put food on their family's table; that they're watching their baby sibling while mom and dad go out to score junk; that their friends need them to join the local gang to protect their neighborhood; that they don't have access to transportation to get to the classes; that the rest of the city needs money and will steal from the education fund as it always does, because why try to teach the kids when they're not going to learn anyway; and of course, because their parents gave up on their future a long time ago and give zero shit about trying to help them make something of themselves.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
  So the fix is to lower hiring standards? What exactly are you promoting as a fix here?
  - cmsj 11y ago
    "Lower hiring standards" is a myopic fallacy. You don't hire Jeff the amazing coder who likes to punch people in the face. Discounting the value of culture is a huge mistake. Humans work best when they are not treated as replaceable units of quantified productivity. Diverse cultures can attack problems with a broader perspective than homogenous cultures.
    - sokoloff 11y ago
      It's still not clear what you would have a hiring manager do today. I usually have several positions open at any given time; I don't even recall the last black applicant we've seen. I have talented co-workers of many different races (specifically including black), but even without visiting our office, you could guess the percentage breakdown and you wouldn't be far off. I can't hire applicants that don't exist and I can't hire applicants that aren't qualified.
      - meric 11y ago
        We hired some remote engineers from South Africa through stack overflow. Now we have a permanent office in Cape Town. Give that a go maybe. A lot more bang for the buck comparatively than hiring remote engineers from the U.S., and the programmers there (shouldn't even be surprise) are as good as from any country including the U.S.
        nzoschke 11y ago
        Awesome. I can think of a ton of reasons a hiring manager would say "I can't do that." Not about race, but about remote and time zones. So kudos to you for trying something that opened you up to far more candidates, finding them, making them successful, and sharing this example for others to learn from.
beat 11y ago
Role models matter tremendously too, and that's something that we don't see much, something that's a real problem. Now, I'm biased toward capability. I think progress is made almost entirely by people who possess both talent and will to power. But that's innate, and evenly distributed across racial and gender lines. So differences in outcomes are, broadly, due to privilege (specifically, resources). If someone has access to education and support, they'll do better than someone who does not, all other things being equal. Racist and sexist results are because of our failure as a society, not racial or gender inadequacy. But anyway, about role models. For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc. Their role models. If the most successful people you see growing up are doctors and lawyers and engineers, you imagine your own success as being a doctor or lawyer or engineer. If the most successful people you see are drug dealers and slumlords... well. There are very few black engineers in this country. They're underrepresented. Because of this, smart and ambitious young black kids don't get "engineer" as a role model. They may have never met an adult who makes software or hardware for a living. So they have no frame of reference, no concept that this is "success". It's a big problem.
- MBCook 11y ago
  > For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc. I've once saw of glimpse of this first hand and it was really depressing. Knew a waiter at a restaurant my family frequented. One day he was making chit-chat with us and talking about his son (who would have been rather young, 4-8) and that his dream for his son was to be a restaurant manager or a supervisor at a lawn care business or something like that. That was how high that family was dreaming, I guess that was as high as they could see being reasonable (unless they kid was a genius/pro-athlete). From hearing stories of women in the industry seeing that one person that looks like them that shows the 'you can be this too' seems like it's often a huge help or an important moment.
  - beat 11y ago
    I grew up poor, what they call "white trash" in the south. I saw this firsthand. I knew I wanted out, so I went to college at an excellent private liberal arts school. One of the most amazing eye-openers there was meeting the parents of other students, and meeting alumni, people who had done amazing things with their lives. A few years earlier, success to me meant owning your own motorcycle dealership. Today, I've shook the hands of multiple billionaires. I could not have even imagined that as a child. But I'm lucky. I'm very intelligent, talented, lack major health issues, and I'm white, male, and American. The combination of innate talent and privilege opened a lot of doors for me.
wpietri 11y ago
> I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. You might consider reading the excellent paper, "Are Emily And Greg More Employable Than Lakisha And Jamal? A Field Experiment On Labor Market Discrimination": http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 My take is that if tech really, truly has no race or gender discrimination problems, that would be remarkably different than a lot of other US industries. One quick way to check is to ask your friends in those groups whether that's case. The ones I've talked to mostly disagree with you. > The real way to solve it is at the bottom of the funnel [...] I am strongly opposed to the notion that there is one real way to solve this problem. That you believe you have a plausible solution that might help is great. Definitely do it. But that's no reason to discourage people from trying other solutions.
- steven2012 11y ago
  It is remarkably different. The amount of Asians/South Asians in tech is very high. If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this. I don't know anyone who wouldn't hire a smart person based on their race. I'm sure it exists in small quantities, just like everywhere else, but I believe it's much smaller in tech than any other industry. The reason why there aren't a lot of blacks and Hispanics in tech I believe is because there simply aren't a lot going to school for it. Again, this was my experience in college, and the experience of most of my colleagues. Which again is because the poor education system especially in poor areas, not because companies are racist against blacks and Hispanics. I gave my opinion. This is what a discussion consists of. Nowhere did I discourage people from trying other solutions.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    The article itself says that only 4.5% of CS graduates from the top universities are black, so if you're only hiring graduates of those universities then you're never going to have a diverse workforce.
    - rrrx3 11y ago
      Exactly. There are numerous HBCUs that have very well structured CS programs. I'd be willing to put money on the fact that those graduates don't even get a second look. Valley people are too preoccupied with the optics of having a BIG SCHOOL NAME to actually care if an employee without the school name can do the job just as well or better.
InclinedPlane 11y ago
It's both. The sad fact is that it doesn't take very strong forces to diminish the presence of people of color in tech, just widespread ones that exist at all layers. A slight increase in resumes being passed over for phone screens. A slight preference against hiring due to nearly indescribable "culture fit" reasons. It doesn't require explicit, objective racism at any point. It's absolutely necessary to kill the myth of tech hiring as a perfect meritocracy. It is not, it's far from it. It's a dirty and incredibly flawed process that barely even works, let alone represents any pretense of egalitarian perfection.
frankdenbow 11y ago
If you're in NYC you can check out the Academy for Software Engineering, a cs focused high school. We do mentorship there via iMentor. There's also CSNYC.org which works to support cs education programs to get spread within the school system and to train more teachers on cs topics
RodericDay 11y ago
> The real way to solve it is at the bottom of the funnel, at the elementary, middle and high school levels. The way I see it, the biggest beneficiaries of "affirmative action" aren't the people getting jobs because of diversity policies. It's younger, impressionable kids who get to benefit from role models in their likeness. "Forced diversity" may be the best hack possible to foster persistent diversity down the line, and fix vicious cycles.
wpietri 11y ago
An actual black person in tech responds to points you and others make: https://twitter.com/polotek/status/662312638324469761 https://twitter.com/polotek/status/662312638324469761
- steven2012 11y ago
  Unless I misread it, I didn't read a single thing that will help a black person today get hired.
  - aeflash 11y ago
    It likely will. You revealed an unconscious bias you have. You think that focusing on diversity is lowering the hiring bar. This is a fundamentally biased position -- it assumes minorities are worse tech workers. You're the top comment on a popular HN thread, many people are rebutting you, and are getting linked from many external sources. All it takes is one hiring manager to read this thread, realize their unconscious bias, and then realize that focusing on diversity does not compromise employee standards. Then a black person gets hired.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
      - wpietri 11y ago
        Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment. The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But at some level of repetition and entrenched defense of an apparently naive position, it gets pretty hard to say, "Oh Steven2012 just doesn't know." It begins to look like you don't want to know. Which is also fine, really, as long as you own that and move along in spite of it. Maybe try that? It seems better than being the poster boy for statements like "I don't read HN often. But it can be instructive. You get to read unfiltered sentiment from ppl who don't realize they're misogynist/racist."
Geekette 11y ago
* "over 20 years in tech ... I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black ... I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. ... The only way you will hit higher-than-normal diversity numbers is to reduce hiring standards, which is wrong. * WOW. Haven't time to unpack all that is wrong with your response but mainly: Black people in the US can be found across all strata of society, including top/good schools. The implication that they must all be poor and in inadequate schools is ludicrous. Part of why the diversity issue is so aggravating is because the # of qualified candidates may be relatively small, but it still significantly exceeds the # of Black candidates hired. Likewise, stating that the only way to improve diversity is by lowering of standards is wrong. It communicates your obviously flawed perspective that Black candidates in tech are inferior.
- steven2012 11y ago
  Where did I state that "they" must all be poor and in adequate schools? I agree there is a diversity problem, and my proposed solution is to increase investment in education in disadvantaged areas. And somehow I'm vilified as a closet, biased racist. It's hilarious. It's responses like this that make any discussion on increasing diversity completely impossible and futile.
mc32 11y ago
I too think it begins with parents, attitudes and elementary school. Parents need to steer or at least inform their children about the workforce. I'd like to see how minority owned or run small to mid size enterprises even large have fared in hiring minorities (their own, as well as outside their own) in the "tech" field. If they can who higher rates, then it may indicate that non minority owned and run are to some extent racist, or at least not actively seeking minorities.

peterwwillis 11y ago

This is exactly the same as saying that the reason women had little power in America before 1920 was because they couldn't vote. Which is true, but completely overlooks why women didn't have the right to vote. Women didn't have power because they were oppressed by men for centuries. Black people don't have "as good an education" because they've been systematically abandoned by the most powerful parts of society for centuries. You could spend 100 million on a program just in my city alone to try to give disadvantaged kids tech lessons. You know what would happen? Nothing, because you haven't addressed the fact that they have to sell dope, hustle or work multiple jobs just to put food on their family's table; that they're watching their baby sibling while mom and dad go out to score junk; that their friends need them to join the local gang to protect their neighborhood; that they don't have access to transportation to get to the classes; that the rest of the city needs money and will steal from the education fund as it always does, because why try to teach the kids when they're not going to learn anyway; and of course, because their parents gave up on their future a long time ago and give zero shit about trying to help them make something of themselves.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
So the fix is to lower hiring standards? What exactly are you promoting as a fix here?
- cmsj 11y ago
  "Lower hiring standards" is a myopic fallacy. You don't hire Jeff the amazing coder who likes to punch people in the face. Discounting the value of culture is a huge mistake. Humans work best when they are not treated as replaceable units of quantified productivity. Diverse cultures can attack problems with a broader perspective than homogenous cultures.
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    It's still not clear what you would have a hiring manager do today. I usually have several positions open at any given time; I don't even recall the last black applicant we've seen. I have talented co-workers of many different races (specifically including black), but even without visiting our office, you could guess the percentage breakdown and you wouldn't be far off. I can't hire applicants that don't exist and I can't hire applicants that aren't qualified.
    - meric 11y ago
      We hired some remote engineers from South Africa through stack overflow. Now we have a permanent office in Cape Town. Give that a go maybe. A lot more bang for the buck comparatively than hiring remote engineers from the U.S., and the programmers there (shouldn't even be surprise) are as good as from any country including the U.S.
      - nzoschke 11y ago
        Awesome. I can think of a ton of reasons a hiring manager would say "I can't do that." Not about race, but about remote and time zones. So kudos to you for trying something that opened you up to far more candidates, finding them, making them successful, and sharing this example for others to learn from.

beat 11y ago

Role models matter tremendously too, and that's something that we don't see much, something that's a real problem. Now, I'm biased toward capability. I think progress is made almost entirely by people who possess both talent and will to power. But that's innate, and evenly distributed across racial and gender lines. So differences in outcomes are, broadly, due to privilege (specifically, resources). If someone has access to education and support, they'll do better than someone who does not, all other things being equal. Racist and sexist results are because of our failure as a society, not racial or gender inadequacy. But anyway, about role models. For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc. Their role models. If the most successful people you see growing up are doctors and lawyers and engineers, you imagine your own success as being a doctor or lawyer or engineer. If the most successful people you see are drug dealers and slumlords... well. There are very few black engineers in this country. They're underrepresented. Because of this, smart and ambitious young black kids don't get "engineer" as a role model. They may have never met an adult who makes software or hardware for a living. So they have no frame of reference, no concept that this is "success". It's a big problem.

MBCook 11y ago
> For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc. I've once saw of glimpse of this first hand and it was really depressing. Knew a waiter at a restaurant my family frequented. One day he was making chit-chat with us and talking about his son (who would have been rather young, 4-8) and that his dream for his son was to be a restaurant manager or a supervisor at a lawn care business or something like that. That was how high that family was dreaming, I guess that was as high as they could see being reasonable (unless they kid was a genius/pro-athlete). From hearing stories of women in the industry seeing that one person that looks like them that shows the 'you can be this too' seems like it's often a huge help or an important moment.
- beat 11y ago
  I grew up poor, what they call "white trash" in the south. I saw this firsthand. I knew I wanted out, so I went to college at an excellent private liberal arts school. One of the most amazing eye-openers there was meeting the parents of other students, and meeting alumni, people who had done amazing things with their lives. A few years earlier, success to me meant owning your own motorcycle dealership. Today, I've shook the hands of multiple billionaires. I could not have even imagined that as a child. But I'm lucky. I'm very intelligent, talented, lack major health issues, and I'm white, male, and American. The combination of innate talent and privilege opened a lot of doors for me.

wpietri 11y ago

> I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. You might consider reading the excellent paper, "Are Emily And Greg More Employable Than Lakisha And Jamal? A Field Experiment On Labor Market Discrimination": http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873 My take is that if tech really, truly has no race or gender discrimination problems, that would be remarkably different than a lot of other US industries. One quick way to check is to ask your friends in those groups whether that's case. The ones I've talked to mostly disagree with you. > The real way to solve it is at the bottom of the funnel [...] I am strongly opposed to the notion that there is one real way to solve this problem. That you believe you have a plausible solution that might help is great. Definitely do it. But that's no reason to discourage people from trying other solutions.

steven2012 11y ago
It is remarkably different. The amount of Asians/South Asians in tech is very high. If there were material racism, then you wouldn't see this. I don't know anyone who wouldn't hire a smart person based on their race. I'm sure it exists in small quantities, just like everywhere else, but I believe it's much smaller in tech than any other industry. The reason why there aren't a lot of blacks and Hispanics in tech I believe is because there simply aren't a lot going to school for it. Again, this was my experience in college, and the experience of most of my colleagues. Which again is because the poor education system especially in poor areas, not because companies are racist against blacks and Hispanics. I gave my opinion. This is what a discussion consists of. Nowhere did I discourage people from trying other solutions.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  The article itself says that only 4.5% of CS graduates from the top universities are black, so if you're only hiring graduates of those universities then you're never going to have a diverse workforce.
  - rrrx3 11y ago
    Exactly. There are numerous HBCUs that have very well structured CS programs. I'd be willing to put money on the fact that those graduates don't even get a second look. Valley people are too preoccupied with the optics of having a BIG SCHOOL NAME to actually care if an employee without the school name can do the job just as well or better.

InclinedPlane 11y ago

It's both. The sad fact is that it doesn't take very strong forces to diminish the presence of people of color in tech, just widespread ones that exist at all layers. A slight increase in resumes being passed over for phone screens. A slight preference against hiring due to nearly indescribable "culture fit" reasons. It doesn't require explicit, objective racism at any point. It's absolutely necessary to kill the myth of tech hiring as a perfect meritocracy. It is not, it's far from it. It's a dirty and incredibly flawed process that barely even works, let alone represents any pretense of egalitarian perfection.

frankdenbow 11y ago

If you're in NYC you can check out the Academy for Software Engineering, a cs focused high school. We do mentorship there via iMentor. There's also CSNYC.org which works to support cs education programs to get spread within the school system and to train more teachers on cs topics

RodericDay 11y ago

> The real way to solve it is at the bottom of the funnel, at the elementary, middle and high school levels. The way I see it, the biggest beneficiaries of "affirmative action" aren't the people getting jobs because of diversity policies. It's younger, impressionable kids who get to benefit from role models in their likeness. "Forced diversity" may be the best hack possible to foster persistent diversity down the line, and fix vicious cycles.

wpietri 11y ago

An actual black person in tech responds to points you and others make: https://twitter.com/polotek/status/662312638324469761 https://twitter.com/polotek/status/662312638324469761

steven2012 11y ago
Unless I misread it, I didn't read a single thing that will help a black person today get hired.
- aeflash 11y ago
  It likely will. You revealed an unconscious bias you have. You think that focusing on diversity is lowering the hiring bar. This is a fundamentally biased position -- it assumes minorities are worse tech workers. You're the top comment on a popular HN thread, many people are rebutting you, and are getting linked from many external sources. All it takes is one hiring manager to read this thread, realize their unconscious bias, and then realize that focusing on diversity does not compromise employee standards. Then a black person gets hired.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
    - wpietri 11y ago
      Your ability to repeat your talking points is impressive. But you demonstrate zero engagement with any other views, zero understanding of the lived reality of minorities in tech, and zero understanding of the decades of research and discussion around racism and employment. The charitable assumption is that's accidental. There's no reason white people end up knowing about this stuff automatically. I sure didn't. But at some level of repetition and entrenched defense of an apparently naive position, it gets pretty hard to say, "Oh Steven2012 just doesn't know." It begins to look like you don't want to know. Which is also fine, really, as long as you own that and move along in spite of it. Maybe try that? It seems better than being the poster boy for statements like "I don't read HN often. But it can be instructive. You get to read unfiltered sentiment from ppl who don't realize they're misogynist/racist."

Geekette 11y ago

* "over 20 years in tech ... I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black ... I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. ... The only way you will hit higher-than-normal diversity numbers is to reduce hiring standards, which is wrong. * WOW. Haven't time to unpack all that is wrong with your response but mainly: Black people in the US can be found across all strata of society, including top/good schools. The implication that they must all be poor and in inadequate schools is ludicrous. Part of why the diversity issue is so aggravating is because the # of qualified candidates may be relatively small, but it still significantly exceeds the # of Black candidates hired. Likewise, stating that the only way to improve diversity is by lowering of standards is wrong. It communicates your obviously flawed perspective that Black candidates in tech are inferior.

steven2012 11y ago
Where did I state that "they" must all be poor and in adequate schools? I agree there is a diversity problem, and my proposed solution is to increase investment in education in disadvantaged areas. And somehow I'm vilified as a closet, biased racist. It's hilarious. It's responses like this that make any discussion on increasing diversity completely impossible and futile.

mc32 11y ago

I too think it begins with parents, attitudes and elementary school. Parents need to steer or at least inform their children about the workforce. I'd like to see how minority owned or run small to mid size enterprises even large have fared in hiring minorities (their own, as well as outside their own) in the "tech" field. If they can who higher rates, then it may indicate that non minority owned and run are to some extent racist, or at least not actively seeking minorities.