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China to take on Boeing, Airbus with new passenger jet
- lujim 11y agoSo this is a competitor to the 737 and A320. Seems like a pretty crowded market.
- ucaetano 11y agoNot to mention that both 737 and A320 are fully depreciated, highly optimized cash cows. It takes decades for a plane to reach that stage, and both Boeing & Airbus can mass produce them with their eyes closed. As with many other "value added" Chinese products, it might make inroads in "friendly markets" such as Asia and Africa, but will have a very hard time competing in the huge European and American (as in the continents) markets.
- bigethan 11y ago"The lack of certification from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is seen as a major hindrance for international sales." no kidding. China's current reputation (fast and default to crappy quality without extreme oversight) doesn't really fit what I'd want out of an airliner. Optimistically, this project succeeds and changes a bit of the culture around quality and shortcuts in manufacturing. If "Made in China" could gain some equivalence to "Made in Germany" without exploding their cost structure. That'd be an interesting world.
- yc1010 11y agoWell "Made in Germany" brand took on a hammering, the only other country manufacturing planes en masse is Russia, but their plane safety record speaks for itself. It will be a steep hill for China to climb, the question really is how much technology and knowhow was "appropriated" Cheap toys and phones is one thing, planes are another
- woobar 11y agoBrasil is another country that makes commercial planes. They (and Canada) are much bigger internationally then Russia. And they are pretty successful with Embraer even though they did not have any prior reputation.
- blumkvist 11y agoThere are two major aerospace companies, neither of which is German. Boeing is from the US and Airbus is from France. Civilian aircraft production in Russia is practically non-existent.
- ucaetano 11y agoAirbus is based in France, but it's actually an European consortium, with manufacturing facilities across the continent (and in China).
- fspeech 11y agoChina just bought 130 Airbus from Germany: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34665546 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34665546 "Airbus has headquarters in Germany and France."
- superuser2 11y agoThe irony is that VWs are actually made in Mexico.
- venomsnake 11y agoDepends. China have a lot of quality production. But they are producing cheap and crappy because that is what the world buys. They have the means to produce at whatever part of the price/quality curve you want.
- JorgeGT 11y agoNot to speak of the aircraft technology / engineering work they're buying from European suppliers. One of my colleagues in France works mainly for Chinese manufacturers.
- upofadown 11y agoAccording to this: * http://aviationweek.com/awin/c919-may-be-largely-limited-chinese-market http://aviationweek.com/awin/c919-may-be-largely-limited-chi... ... that is a bit misleading. The C919 is not pursuing FAA certification directly. Instead an attempt is being made to have the Chinese certification be recognized by the FAA. The article points out that in 2013 that process was not going well. Also from the article: >There is no suggestion the CAAC would be soft on Comac; on the contrary, it is repeatedly reported that the Chinese authority is tougher than the FAA. So chances are that there are no serious gotchas here and that this will all come down to paperwork.
- dclowd9901 11y ago> Instead an attempt is being made to have the Chinese certification be recognized by the FAA. That has about as much chance of happening as a Chinese plane has of getting FAA certification. Politics are wound up as tightly in this as a tapeworm.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago> it is repeatedly reported that the Chinese authority is tougher than the FAA. Except their government and regulatory structures are much, much more corrupt than their Western counterparts. Sure, they'll produce a document that'll say its safe but whats in the air is a totally different story. The same way lead-free products from China are full of lead. Everyone I know who resells from alibaba does lead testing on their own for every bulk shipment to avoid this. The problem is that bad. Then you have poison in baby formula, USB chargers that catch fire, and the slew of other concerning things that come out of China regularly. So yeah, maybe the FAA should be a little skeptical of a certification from a corrupt one-party state eager to make its mark on the world as being competitive with the West and taking every shortcut to get there.
- UnoriginalGuy 11y agoThe line about lacking an FAA certification is odd. This aircraft couldn't possibly have an FAA certification yet, it hasn't even had its first test flight. They have a basic certification from the Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) which will allow them to conduct test flights and similar. They are partnering with Ryanair (mostly inter-europe flights) and even Airbus expects them to compete outside of China by 2020. As to quality question: China produces both high AND low quality even if they're "known" for low quality. For example that iPhone in your pocket: China. Many chip fabricators: China. High end batteries: China. Etc. If china needs high quality, they will attain it. There's no specific reason, aside from time, why China cannot be a legitimate competitor for international aircraft.
- sithadmin 11y ago>There's no specific reason, aside from time, why China cannot be a legitimate competitor for international aircraft. Though this has no bearing on a Chinese firm's ability to bring a product to market, I can think of many moral and ethical arguments that could undermine the 'legitimacy' of Chinese jets (provided they're constructed with typical Chinese labor practices). Functional or not, the product is tainted.
- wycx 11y agoFabricators of chips you are familiar with: Taiwan. Most of the Chinese fabless SoC companies (Allwinner, Rockchip etc.) aren't getting their chips fabbed by Chinese owned fabs. Most of those cheap chinese phones have Mediatek SoCs, from Taiwan.
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- secfirstmd 11y agoAs far as I know they are not genuinely partnering with Ryanair. That was a clever negotiating tactic from CEO Michael O'Leary to squeeze more concessions from Boeing. He has always been a tough negotiator with them. Ryanair has a business model based on only keeping one type of jet. There is no way they would put all their eggs in a Chinese made aerial basket at this point.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoInteresting, and I hope their aviation industry can do well at home before it decides to go international. Sometimes things crash during R&D. Admitting failure isn't something I've come to expect from China's authorities and media, personally speaking. Unfortunately for China, the problem in the world and coming years isn't a lack of aviation manufacturers, it's a lack of aviators[0]! I've got several commercial airline professionals in my family (all retired) and each of them is glad to be out of the industry - especially the pilots. Working conditions went downhill. Frequent airline executive decisions (bankruptcies / mergers) found ways to, essentially, erase agreed-upon pensions or seniority. On and on. Basically my understanding is that the profession of being a pilot is about on-par with that of being a teacher: Do it because you love it, not because the pay or working conditions are really that good. I'm not sure if it's the same globally, but if the US isn't producing a surplus of pilots to staff the rest of the world, I've got significant doubts that needs will be met with qualified personnel. As in, you don't want a pilot who cheated to get into the cockpit. [0] http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-09/asia-is-running-out-of-pilots http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-09/asia-is-run...
- ausjke 11y agoI read a component checklist for C919 yesterday and it seems other than the main body, most if not all the internal pieces(including the engines) are outsourced elsewhere. Boeing probably does something similar, in that it acts like more of a system designer and integrator, I recall its major software was also outsourced to some India company for its newest model.
- GordonS 11y agoWhat are the C919's selling point versus the Boeing 737 and Airbus A320?
- blumkvist 11y ago"Keeping those western imperialists out of our country!"
- GordonS 11y agoHeh, I meant from a technical perspective :)
- ucaetano 11y ago"Keeping those western imperialist technologies out of our country!"
- lujim 11y ago20% more lead in the construction offset by the decreased weight of no safety equipment. Actually it was advertised to have better fuel economy than some variants of the 737, but it doesn't really appear to be much of an improvement. Just China's answer to the 737 and A320 as far as I can see.
- iSnow 11y agoObviously price. And it's a first, Airbus didn't sell that many A-300 in the first years. Only with the A-320 did they have a winner and subsequently developed a whole family of jets. China isn't just looking at the next couple of business quarters, they want to get a foothold in the commercial jet market in the next decades.
- Someone1234 11y agoThey're trying to be the "Kia of aircraft" meaning they offer a lot of value for a relatively low price. They're primarily targeting budget airlines. It is a little speculatory but supposedly their average aircraft will cost $68 million Vs. $71.9m or $78.3m for a A320 and 737 respectively. So they will be the cheapest in that line, and are trying to match or better the other two in fuel economy, supposedly 15% more fuel efficient than the A320 [0] (but the A320neo is meant to be more comparable). That being said few analysts think that Comac's first attempt at commercial success will be successful. They have a lot of obstacles to overcome. However assuming the money doesn't dry up their second or third aircraft might be fairly competitive. So watch this space for the mid to late 2020s, might see Comac on the tarmac somewhere nearby. [0] http://leehamnews.com/2012/01/05/c919-gains-but-loses-advantages/ http://leehamnews.com/2012/01/05/c919-gains-but-loses-advant...
- adaml_623 11y agoI know their planes are a tiny bit smaller but has anyone not heard of Embraer planes? They've sold over a thousand of these jets but CNN don't think they are worth mentioning? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_family#E-190_and_195 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_E-Jet_family#E-190_and...
- aeharding 11y agoMy OCD now wants an aircraft manufacturer starting with a D. Airbus-Boeing-Comac-D????-Embraer. Who wants the D?
- sithadmin 11y agoThere was a time when Douglas aircraft were king (DC-series), prior to merger with McDonnell in the late 60s, then Boeing more recently.
- dingaling 11y agoOnly really Dassault left to fill that sequence and they don't compete directly in that market any more ( though their Mercure fuselage lives on in the A320 series. Marcel Bloch wanted something wider than the 737 for marketing purposes ). The "D"s appear to be cursed; de Havilland Canada, Dornier and ( McDonnell )-Douglas have all disappeared since 2000.
- iSnow 11y agoToo bad Douglas was swallowed.
- ant6n 11y agoDumbardier
- goatforce5 11y agoBombardier is currently being bailed out by the Quebec government to the tune of $1bn, so that's another (almost) D company that's not doing so great: http://business.financialpost.com/investing/trading-desk/bombardier-inc-could-need-a-second-bailout-within-12-18-months-scotiabank http://business.financialpost.com/investing/trading-desk/bom...
- crimsonalucard 11y agohttp://newsinfo.inquirer.net/709422/another-woman-killed-in-china-in-elevator-accident-this-time http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/709422/another-woman-killed-in-... China can't even make an escalator or elevator safe. I'm ethnically chinese, but I wouldn't set a foot on a chinese plane.
- cttet 11y agoI did a little bit research and found the escalator is from Otis. Of course there are management and maintenance issues, but it is not related to the product quality Chinese-branded plane. And if you are buying cheap product or using a cheap service, don't expect it to be the same quality as the expensive counter parts.
- kirk21 11y ago3 years of test flights. Am I the only one that finds this a long time to test an aircraft?
- ceejayoz 11y agoPlanes have pretty disastrous failure modes, and useful lifespans in the decades. An accelerated test cycle seems... unwise.
- anon8418 11y agoNot for a passenger jet.
- mikeash 11y agoHow much time do you spend testing some mildly complex web app, by the time you're done with it? You're probably testing a ton as you go along, but a lot of stuff in an airplane can't be tested until the whole thing is assembled. Then consider that even a smallish airliner is about a thousand times more complex than your web app. The software running on just one of the many computers alone is vastly more complex than your web app, not to mention the huge quantity of complex and often custom-designed mechanical equipment and such, plus the intersections of all these various pieces. Then add in the fact that bugs that get through testing in your web app probably mean you have to fix it and redeploy, while bugs that get through aircraft testing result in dead passengers. Three years seems pretty reasonable to me.
- genericresponse 11y agoAnyone else wonder if much of their R&D and design on this is coming from international espionage? Chinese exfiltration of sensitive industrial data is becoming pretty well known.
- bpp 11y agoThat would probably make me feel better about getting on one of these.
- mikeash 11y agoI don't know about that.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss That story is probably untrue, but the potential for similar things has to be there.
- bpp 11y agoThat would probably make me feel better about getting on one of these.
- JorgeGT 11y agoHum, what decade are you living in? Espionage? They just contract international suppliers, designers and engineering R&D firms, exactly the same as Airbus or Boeing do. I know that many suppliers in France work for Chinese aircraft manufacturers. It's not like we are at war or something. As other user commented, if you look at the BOM of this plane you will see that a lot of components are internationally outsourced.
- ww520 11y agoPeople think they will compete with Boeing and Airbus internationally but they are not, at least not initially. They mainly aim at China's domestic market which has long term high growth as more people becoming wealthier and use air flight as a mode of transportation. Some estimate that the demand for new planes goes into thousands in the near future. It's better to develop and buy from a domestic manufacturer than sending the money oversea. In some sense they are competing with Boeing and Airbus for the China's and the other emerging markets.
- robodale 11y agoBoeing and Airbus are known for quality AND reliability. Those two terms are derived from hard data just as much as from public perception. As other's here have said...China will face an uphill battle.