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There are quite a few hurdles for small businesses and young startups in Europe to do business online: * registration of a limited company is not that simple i

There are quite a few hurdles for small businesses and young startups in Europe to do business online: * registration of a limited company is not that simple in some countries. UK is relatively easy, but in Germany you need to invest at least 25,000 EUR just to get started. Half of it upfront. Not to mention notary fees and other red tape. * VAT is a huge pain since 2015, especially for digital goods and services. Look up VAT MOSS aka #vatmess * language - if you want to cater to a wider audience, localization is still a major aspect and costs a lot in terms of development, content, support etc * employment rules are usually much more strict. This is generally positive for employed individuals, but when it comes to a small business trying to work with freelancers (or freelancers themselves), they are massive hurdles. I'm familiar with IR35 in the UK, but there's pretty much the same thing here in Germany without having a fancy name... I'm pretty sure similar rules apply in other EU countries as well, but have no actual knowledge about other countries. Source: being a small fish entrepreneur in Israel, UK and Germany. EDIT I should also add currency support. Whilst the EUR covers a fair number of countries, there are still exceptions...

pyvpx 11y ago
I incorporated in Berlin with 1500EUR. I got a shelf corporation, with the documents translated to English so I didn't need an official interpreter @ 150EUR per hour, and the notar costs included. Granted it isn't a GmbH but a UG, so I imagine for some industries that wont work; but for a boutique consulting firm it's been excellent. VAT is a mess, though. definitely. but then you hire an accountant and you get VAT + all that other tax stuff "abstracted" away for a very reasonable cost.
- kawera 11y ago
  I want to incorporate in Germany too and am researching the topic right now. Did you use an online incorporation service. If so, could you share a few pointers?
  - pyvpx 11y ago
    there are cheaper ways to go about it, but I used Foratis and cannot speak higher of their service and product. My partner also formed her own UG but used firma.de, hired a certified but inexpensive official translator, and it took nearly four months from start to finish. Note that Foratis does not do the VAT registration for you, like some other shelf corporation providers. I didn't realize this and it became a minor pain. Whatever you do, budget for a competent Steuerberater. DIY is nearly impossible unless you have strong German skills, and even my native business owner friends don't DIY when it comes to Finanzamt dealings :)
    - kawera 11y ago
      Thank you very much! I'm not looking for the cheapest and certainly won't go the DIY route. Foratis seems very interesting and they even help opening a bank account, generally a big hurdle. Now off I go find a competent Steuerberater...
- _up 11y ago
  Has someone incorporated in Delaware and Headquartered in Germany? We are talking small budget here. Is this a nightmare or could work in some instances? Taxes could be a problem I heard. I am working on a feedly competitor (with Popularity Sorting) and it would make sense to concentrate on the US Market first anyway.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - germanier 11y ago
    From German view you will have to follow almost the same rules and regulations that a German company would have to follow, so not really an advantage on that front. Doing taxes will be complicated though. You would have to pay the same German taxes that every German company needs to pay but of course the US might also want their share. Navigating double-taxation treaties is not easy. If you need a legal presence in the US it's actually easiest to start two companies, one on each side of the pond, with one of them owning the other. You should definitely go to a tax consultant knowing this stuff if you consider doing such things.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      This is especially an issue with the US, which is notorious for double-taxing income of its citizen that was generated (and taxed) in other countries.
      - kspaans 11y ago
        Are you referring to double-taxing or the US's "taxing income earned abroad" policy? It looks like the US has many tax treaties[0], and it's my understanding that these treaties will usually shield you from double-taxation. What the US does do, however (as I understand it), is tax you on the difference between the income tax you pay in a foreign country and what you would pay if you were in the US. In other words, living in a foreign country with lower income tax than the US won't let you avoid paying at least as much income tax as if you were still in the US. (And if you move somewhere with higher taxes the US won't charge you any extra (nor give you tax credits! :P).) 0 - https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/United-States-Income-Tax-Treaties---A-to-Z https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/Unit...
- gingerlime 11y ago
  I'm talking about charging VAT for customers in Europe, which means a different rate for every country, and two forms of proof for the actual location. Reporting duties and storing records for 10 years etc... For a B2C company (or even small scale B2B dealing with many small companies) this is a total and utter mess. No accountant can abstract that away to my knowledge.
germanier 11y ago
You could start a limited company without a capital of 25 000 € at a cost which is comparable to the UK's for seven years now (the so called Mini-GmbH, or formally UG (haftungsbeschränkt)). Sure, it could be much easier (see Estonia as an example) but it isn't much better in the UK than in Germany.
- gingerlime 11y ago
  I don't remember the exact reasons. Possibly due to our share split agreement or just wishing to have a "real" company, but my co founders opted for GmbH over UG. In any case it's a relatively small hurdle either way, but still something you have to work out and decide during the early days.
  - germanier 11y ago
    An UG is legally exactly the same as a GmbH (they share most of the laws) with three differences: * No required minimum capital * Different name (which signals business partners that you didn't put down the minimum for a GmbH) * You have to leave 25% of the company's earnings in the company until you reach 25k Everything else, including all possible agreements between the owners is the same.
corv 11y ago
Actually, registration of a limited company formally only requires 1 EUR in Germany since 2008. This 'UG' company will then accumulate 25% of its annual profit until 25,000 EUR is reached, at which point it is transformed into a GmbH. The notary costs are significantly less than with a GmbH and the process is much simpler.
mavdi 11y ago
I wanted to start a limited company in Spain. After reading the requirements, I faced the other way and never enquired about it again. Now Spain won't lose much by losing my business, but if everyone's as terrified as I was when trying to incorporate in Spain, suddenly it makes sense that they lack foreign investment.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
Don't believe all you read in the Daily mail IR35 is self employment (its a tax law not an employment law) and in the UK your first two years effectively at will. Have you actually run a proper company (ie one that employs some one other than you) in the UK doesn't sound like it

pyvpx 11y ago

I incorporated in Berlin with 1500EUR. I got a shelf corporation, with the documents translated to English so I didn't need an official interpreter @ 150EUR per hour, and the notar costs included. Granted it isn't a GmbH but a UG, so I imagine for some industries that wont work; but for a boutique consulting firm it's been excellent. VAT is a mess, though. definitely. but then you hire an accountant and you get VAT + all that other tax stuff "abstracted" away for a very reasonable cost.

kawera 11y ago
I want to incorporate in Germany too and am researching the topic right now. Did you use an online incorporation service. If so, could you share a few pointers?
- pyvpx 11y ago
  there are cheaper ways to go about it, but I used Foratis and cannot speak higher of their service and product. My partner also formed her own UG but used firma.de, hired a certified but inexpensive official translator, and it took nearly four months from start to finish. Note that Foratis does not do the VAT registration for you, like some other shelf corporation providers. I didn't realize this and it became a minor pain. Whatever you do, budget for a competent Steuerberater. DIY is nearly impossible unless you have strong German skills, and even my native business owner friends don't DIY when it comes to Finanzamt dealings :)
  - kawera 11y ago
    Thank you very much! I'm not looking for the cheapest and certainly won't go the DIY route. Foratis seems very interesting and they even help opening a bank account, generally a big hurdle. Now off I go find a competent Steuerberater...
_up 11y ago
Has someone incorporated in Delaware and Headquartered in Germany? We are talking small budget here. Is this a nightmare or could work in some instances? Taxes could be a problem I heard. I am working on a feedly competitor (with Popularity Sorting) and it would make sense to concentrate on the US Market first anyway.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- germanier 11y ago
  From German view you will have to follow almost the same rules and regulations that a German company would have to follow, so not really an advantage on that front. Doing taxes will be complicated though. You would have to pay the same German taxes that every German company needs to pay but of course the US might also want their share. Navigating double-taxation treaties is not easy. If you need a legal presence in the US it's actually easiest to start two companies, one on each side of the pond, with one of them owning the other. You should definitely go to a tax consultant knowing this stuff if you consider doing such things.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    This is especially an issue with the US, which is notorious for double-taxing income of its citizen that was generated (and taxed) in other countries.
    - kspaans 11y ago
      Are you referring to double-taxing or the US's "taxing income earned abroad" policy? It looks like the US has many tax treaties[0], and it's my understanding that these treaties will usually shield you from double-taxation. What the US does do, however (as I understand it), is tax you on the difference between the income tax you pay in a foreign country and what you would pay if you were in the US. In other words, living in a foreign country with lower income tax than the US won't let you avoid paying at least as much income tax as if you were still in the US. (And if you move somewhere with higher taxes the US won't charge you any extra (nor give you tax credits! :P).) 0 - https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/United-States-Income-Tax-Treaties---A-to-Z https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/Unit...
gingerlime 11y ago
I'm talking about charging VAT for customers in Europe, which means a different rate for every country, and two forms of proof for the actual location. Reporting duties and storing records for 10 years etc... For a B2C company (or even small scale B2B dealing with many small companies) this is a total and utter mess. No accountant can abstract that away to my knowledge.

germanier 11y ago

You could start a limited company without a capital of 25 000 € at a cost which is comparable to the UK's for seven years now (the so called Mini-GmbH, or formally UG (haftungsbeschränkt)). Sure, it could be much easier (see Estonia as an example) but it isn't much better in the UK than in Germany.

gingerlime 11y ago
I don't remember the exact reasons. Possibly due to our share split agreement or just wishing to have a "real" company, but my co founders opted for GmbH over UG. In any case it's a relatively small hurdle either way, but still something you have to work out and decide during the early days.
- germanier 11y ago
  An UG is legally exactly the same as a GmbH (they share most of the laws) with three differences: * No required minimum capital * Different name (which signals business partners that you didn't put down the minimum for a GmbH) * You have to leave 25% of the company's earnings in the company until you reach 25k Everything else, including all possible agreements between the owners is the same.

corv 11y ago

Actually, registration of a limited company formally only requires 1 EUR in Germany since 2008. This 'UG' company will then accumulate 25% of its annual profit until 25,000 EUR is reached, at which point it is transformed into a GmbH. The notary costs are significantly less than with a GmbH and the process is much simpler.

mavdi 11y ago

I wanted to start a limited company in Spain. After reading the requirements, I faced the other way and never enquired about it again. Now Spain won't lose much by losing my business, but if everyone's as terrified as I was when trying to incorporate in Spain, suddenly it makes sense that they lack foreign investment.

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

Don't believe all you read in the Daily mail IR35 is self employment (its a tax law not an employment law) and in the UK your first two years effectively at will. Have you actually run a proper company (ie one that employs some one other than you) in the UK doesn't sound like it