4 ms·

Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, an

by topspin 11y ago

Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Your view of the world doesn't match my experience at all. Exactly the opposite.

muddyrivers 11y ago
Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors. Culture might be. People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to not share them unless to good friends. The less people share, the less opportunities to make friends. I also find it is easier for adults, especially men, to make friends in Asia, like in China and Japan.
- topspin 11y ago
  Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with Kumbaya. In fact it ends with everyone on edge, peering at each other silently as they sweat the value of their tiny piece of it.
  - zyxley 11y ago
    > Anxiety is high among residence. [citation needed]
  - TulliusCicero 11y ago
    Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be, so that people's individual choices dictate what's available, rather than the law. It's supporting all modes of transportation so that people have an actual choice in how they get around, instead of being required to drive to do anything or go anywhere. Forcing everyone into what topspin thinks is best isn't liberty, it's coercion.
    - Pyxl101 11y ago
      > Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countries like Japan are fairly xenophobic at best, racist at worst. I believe there was an article on HN recently about how difficult it is to found a start up in Japan as a foreigner. Plus, I'm not sure this kind of tight-knit culture is something I'd want to be a part of: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ > The company is your public life. Have an issue with your landlord? The company will handle it, in those cases where the company is not your landlord.[...] Need to file paperwork with City Hall? Someone from HR can do it for you. > The company is your private life. All friends you’ve made since your school days almost by definition work for your company, because you spend substantially every waking hour officially at work or at quote leisure unquote with people from work. That sounds to me like modern-day feudalism. ---- > Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area? If the people in an area don't want to vote for an increase in density, then so be it. Let them live their lives how they want to.
- TulliusCicero 11y ago
  I think this is a selection bias. In a big city, you see everyone. In a rural area, people who are more anti-social are more likely to become outright recluses, they're totally invisible to the rest of society. Thus, you only see the more pro-social people in a rural area. For example, we think of people in rural areas as being those who love the outdoors, they get out a lot into nature, exercise a lot, more than city slickers, right? Except no, they're actually less healthy than urban residents. Sure, there are some there who really are going out into nature constantly and are in fantastic shape, but what you don't see are the people who just sit at home all the time watching TV and smoking, because there just ain't that much to do - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304793504576434442652581806 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023047935045764344...
TulliusCicero 11y ago
> anti-car municipal governments impeding road development In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." > However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Honestly, this just sounds like your personality is more attuned to a rural area; you're fitting in better, and therefore socializing more. There are certainly people like yourself for whom this is the case, and that's absolutely fine. The problem with the regulations I mentioned isn't that they allow for low-density development, it's that they enforce low-density development. Also, what you're describing still matches the article more or less: you don't really have spontaneous interaction in the community, but you do have intentional/planned interaction.
- lagadu 11y ago
  > In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." I agree with you but in the sense that non-car transports should be treated much more seriously than cars, which I suspect is not what you meant to transmit.
rcurry 11y ago
My experience has been the same as yours - I spent years living in NYC and years living in rural Wisconsin. The difference, in terms of social contact, is remarkable. It used to kill me when I'd roll up to a complete stranger's farm to ask for permission to hunt out on their property and end up getting dragged into the house to have dinner with their family, ha ha.
- prawn 11y ago
  Is that because of the people themselves, or because you had a reason to interact socially? I think given reasons to interact, people in denser areas have just as healthy relationships. But many of us don't create those opportunities by default on the street or in the apartment lift. But provide a little catalyst (street parade, removalist trying to reverse down a tight lane, lost dog, etc) and people come together.

by topspin 11y ago

muddyrivers 11y ago

Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors. Culture might be. People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to not share them unless to good friends. The less people share, the less opportunities to make friends. I also find it is easier for adults, especially men, to make friends in Asia, like in China and Japan.

topspin 11y ago
Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with Kumbaya. In fact it ends with everyone on edge, peering at each other silently as they sweat the value of their tiny piece of it.
- zyxley 11y ago
  > Anxiety is high among residence. [citation needed]
- TulliusCicero 11y ago
  Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be, so that people's individual choices dictate what's available, rather than the law. It's supporting all modes of transportation so that people have an actual choice in how they get around, instead of being required to drive to do anything or go anywhere. Forcing everyone into what topspin thinks is best isn't liberty, it's coercion.
  - Pyxl101 11y ago
    > Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countries like Japan are fairly xenophobic at best, racist at worst. I believe there was an article on HN recently about how difficult it is to found a start up in Japan as a foreigner. Plus, I'm not sure this kind of tight-knit culture is something I'd want to be a part of: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ > The company is your public life. Have an issue with your landlord? The company will handle it, in those cases where the company is not your landlord.[...] Need to file paperwork with City Hall? Someone from HR can do it for you. > The company is your private life. All friends you’ve made since your school days almost by definition work for your company, because you spend substantially every waking hour officially at work or at quote leisure unquote with people from work. That sounds to me like modern-day feudalism. ---- > Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area? If the people in an area don't want to vote for an increase in density, then so be it. Let them live their lives how they want to.
TulliusCicero 11y ago
I think this is a selection bias. In a big city, you see everyone. In a rural area, people who are more anti-social are more likely to become outright recluses, they're totally invisible to the rest of society. Thus, you only see the more pro-social people in a rural area. For example, we think of people in rural areas as being those who love the outdoors, they get out a lot into nature, exercise a lot, more than city slickers, right? Except no, they're actually less healthy than urban residents. Sure, there are some there who really are going out into nature constantly and are in fantastic shape, but what you don't see are the people who just sit at home all the time watching TV and smoking, because there just ain't that much to do - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304793504576434442652581806 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023047935045764344...

TulliusCicero 11y ago

> anti-car municipal governments impeding road development In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." > However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Honestly, this just sounds like your personality is more attuned to a rural area; you're fitting in better, and therefore socializing more. There are certainly people like yourself for whom this is the case, and that's absolutely fine. The problem with the regulations I mentioned isn't that they allow for low-density development, it's that they enforce low-density development. Also, what you're describing still matches the article more or less: you don't really have spontaneous interaction in the community, but you do have intentional/planned interaction.

lagadu 11y ago
> In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." I agree with you but in the sense that non-car transports should be treated much more seriously than cars, which I suspect is not what you meant to transmit.

rcurry 11y ago

My experience has been the same as yours - I spent years living in NYC and years living in rural Wisconsin. The difference, in terms of social contact, is remarkable. It used to kill me when I'd roll up to a complete stranger's farm to ask for permission to hunt out on their property and end up getting dragged into the house to have dinner with their family, ha ha.

prawn 11y ago
Is that because of the people themselves, or because you had a reason to interact socially? I think given reasons to interact, people in denser areas have just as healthy relationships. But many of us don't create those opportunities by default on the street or in the apartment lift. But provide a little catalyst (street parade, removalist trying to reverse down a tight lane, lost dog, etc) and people come together.