6 ms·

How our housing choices make adult friendships more difficult

79 points by prawn 11y ago

TulliusCicero 11y ago
Note that it's not just individual choices that have led to this. Minimum parking requirements, anti-density zoning laws, and other car-first regulations have forcibly shaped our communities to be hostile to walking, biking, and transit. A huge loss in spontaneous community interaction is the inevitable result.
- topspin 11y ago
  Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Your view of the world doesn't match my experience at all. Exactly the opposite.
  - muddyrivers 11y ago
    Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors. Culture might be. People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to not share them unless to good friends. The less people share, the less opportunities to make friends. I also find it is easier for adults, especially men, to make friends in Asia, like in China and Japan.
    - topspin 11y ago
      Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with Kumbaya. In fact it ends with everyone on edge, peering at each other silently as they sweat the value of their tiny piece of it.
      - zyxley 11y ago
        > Anxiety is high among residence. [citation needed]
      - TulliusCicero 11y ago
        Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be, so that people's individual choices dictate what's available, rather than the law. It's supporting all modes of transportation so that people have an actual choice in how they get around, instead of being required to drive to do anything or go anywhere. Forcing everyone into what topspin thinks is best isn't liberty, it's coercion.
        Pyxl101 11y ago
        > Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countries like Japan are fairly xenophobic at best, racist at worst. I believe there was an article on HN recently about how difficult it is to found a start up in Japan as a foreigner. Plus, I'm not sure this kind of tight-knit culture is something I'd want to be a part of: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ > The company is your public life. Have an issue with your landlord? The company will handle it, in those cases where the company is not your landlord.[...] Need to file paperwork with City Hall? Someone from HR can do it for you. > The company is your private life. All friends you’ve made since your school days almost by definition work for your company, because you spend substantially every waking hour officially at work or at quote leisure unquote with people from work. That sounds to me like modern-day feudalism. ---- > Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area? If the people in an area don't want to vote for an increase in density, then so be it. Let them live their lives how they want to.
  - TulliusCicero 11y ago
    > anti-car municipal governments impeding road development In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." > However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Honestly, this just sounds like your personality is more attuned to a rural area; you're fitting in better, and therefore socializing more. There are certainly people like yourself for whom this is the case, and that's absolutely fine. The problem with the regulations I mentioned isn't that they allow for low-density development, it's that they enforce low-density development. Also, what you're describing still matches the article more or less: you don't really have spontaneous interaction in the community, but you do have intentional/planned interaction.
    - lagadu 11y ago
      > In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." I agree with you but in the sense that non-car transports should be treated much more seriously than cars, which I suspect is not what you meant to transmit.
  - rcurry 11y ago
    My experience has been the same as yours - I spent years living in NYC and years living in rural Wisconsin. The difference, in terms of social contact, is remarkable. It used to kill me when I'd roll up to a complete stranger's farm to ask for permission to hunt out on their property and end up getting dragged into the house to have dinner with their family, ha ha.
    - prawn 11y ago
      Is that because of the people themselves, or because you had a reason to interact socially? I think given reasons to interact, people in denser areas have just as healthy relationships. But many of us don't create those opportunities by default on the street or in the apartment lift. But provide a little catalyst (street parade, removalist trying to reverse down a tight lane, lost dog, etc) and people come together.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > Minimum parking requirements On the flipside, if you have friends who aren't right next door (or perhaps who once were and you don't want to write them off because they moved), it helps to have the ability to drive to their place. I'm not arguing for "car first", but I don't think "pedestrian first" makes sense either. Most of my friends are scattered around a 20-minute radius. (And quite frankly, you can choose your friends but you can't really choose your neighbors.) > anti-density zoning laws I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing.
  - krasin 11y ago
    >I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing. Yep. Instead of having a thousand of single-family houses, I would rather have a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius. Cars are expected to live underground and reach the surface outside of the park. Saying that as I have lived a few years in a very similar setting, while being at a university: http://cdn.absolutevisit.com/blog/photo-of-the-day/100075/Moscow-State-University-Reflection-Moscow-Russia.jpg http://cdn.absolutevisit.com/blog/photo-of-the-day/100075/Mo...
    - zyxley 11y ago
      > a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius The problem with this is that you're basically getting the worst of both worlds. You lose many of the real benefits of dense development because there's no space for jobs and shopping, and you lose the benefits of privately kept land like customized yards and broken-up sightlines and so on. The "giant building separated from everything else by a giant moat of grass" style also has a long, ugly history in public housing developments, with it meant as idealistic but ultimately turning to crap.
      - JoshTriplett 11y ago
- hugh4 11y ago
  On the other hand, people in rural areas tend to be on friendlier terms with their neighbours than people in high-density areas. For various reasons, including the fact that it's much easier to be on good terms with your neighbour when he lives way over the other side of the hill and nothing he does really affects you or vice versa. Also because of necessity -- if there's only two people in a ten-mile radius who can help you if you have a problem, it's nice to be on good terms with them. And finally just the fact that the fewer people you come into contact with, the easier it is to become friends with them. If you keep running into the same fifty people over and over again you'll get to know them, but most of the people I see in the city are people I'll never see again.
  - TulliusCicero 11y ago
    > On the other hand, people in rural areas tend to be on friendlier terms with their neighbours than people in high-density areas. Ostensibly friendlier, but how often do they actually interact on a day-to-day basis? (I agree with the rest of your post)
pasbesoin 11y ago
Counterpoint: If you've ever really been burned by having a crappy neighbor -- or a string of them -- you may be inclined to get as far away as possible. I'm sensitive to noise, and I ended up not with average neighbors but with extremely noisy ones, on multiple occasions. (On one occasion, inescapable even when I was across the street and down two houses.) I'd like a greater sense of community, but I never want to go through that, again. I don't know whether manners have changed, or more people are sensitive to noise (some aspect of the autistic spectrum or the like?). Regardless, for me, higher density living will only become attractive with improvements in soundproofing of such units and/or better control of noisy behavior. (Come to think of it, people didn't used to have such absurd stereos and televisions producing such absurd levels of bass, either -- on average. Not that that is the only problem with noise, these days.) P.S. I'll add that the sound of kids playing and the like doesn't bother me, in reasonable measure. The situations I encountered went FAR beyond that. Sociologists/anthropologists and urban planners need to broaden their perspective with regard to this, in my opinion, when considering contemporary U.S. environments and their like. Further, I can add that I have made upwards of 10 good friends in the last decade. Not neighbors -- although I am friendly with several of them -- but people who, while differing in details and some beliefs and opinions, are kind and respectful. So... is it that we don't have "casual interactions" near our homes? Or, is something else going on? Probably some of each. Again, if you want to promote higher density living, amongst other things ameliorate the noise issues. Better sound-proofing. Effective ordinances.
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  I ended up not with average neighbors but with extremely noisy ones It might not even be the neighbor himself, it could be his dog. A dog that barks constantly, for little or no reason, at all odd hours. Or, something that happened to me, a neighbor with a rooster. A rooster that loved to start crowing at about 4 or 5 AM!
- kenesom1 11y ago
  Sadly the housing situation in most metropolitan areas is an assault on all the senses. Housing right next to highways, no sound insulation between units, damp buildings infested with mold, inadequate ventilation, overflowing trash bins. A lot of it is down to the short-term objectives of most property development projects, management companies who are unwilling to properly maintain buildings, and shoddy building standards in the US - flimsy materials, stick-built buildings instead of concrete, etc. The housing stock is in terrible shape and current policy encourages the development of disposable buildings that are barely livable. Poor noise control in building designs results in: Everyone's Upstairs Neighbors - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU
ChuckMcM 11y ago
Well I have learned a lot from my wife in this regard, we walk our dog in the early evenings and say Hi! and chat with anyone willing to stop and talk. Perhaps the biggest thing I learned is that you have to give your time unconditionally, sometimes for a while, before people will trust you enough to reciprocate. But you can break down barriers this way.
PhantomGremlin 11y ago
Something that I haven't seen mentioned here is online communities. E.g. HN. Or the thousands of other websites that cater to the varied interests we have. It's not the same as real life, in person interaction. But it does result in "friendships" of a sort. It allows people to interact with like minded individuals. Much different than everyone being passive consumers watching the boob tube.

79 points by prawn 11y ago

Note that it's not just individual choices that have led to this. Minimum parking requirements, anti-density zoning laws, and other car-first regulations have forcibly shaped our communities to be hostile to walking, biking, and transit. A huge loss in spontaneous community interaction is the inevitable result.

topspin 11y ago
Well that's 100% out of phase with my experience. I just ended 21 years in the "Front Range" area; Boulder, Fort Collins CO. Bike trails and bikers abound, anti-car municipal governments impeding road development, everyone living on anti-sprawl 0.2 acre plats. However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Your view of the world doesn't match my experience at all. Exactly the opposite.
- muddyrivers 11y ago
  Agree. I don't think physical distance and density are important factors. Culture might be. People are more friendly in the midwest, and they are more open to talk about family matters. Family matters are in essence intimate, and the topics draw the people in the conversation together. In the big cities, these topics are regarded as "more" private (they are indeed private). It is a social norm to not share them unless to good friends. The less people share, the less opportunities to make friends. I also find it is easier for adults, especially men, to make friends in Asia, like in China and Japan.
  - topspin 11y ago
    Culture? Hmm. Maybe. These highly ordered, dense and costly neighborhoods are hostile. Anxiety is high among residence. Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty, some space and the need to collaborate to keep the road open and people connect naturally. The 'urban planners' and their cheerleaders have it wrong. They've decided that downsizing everyone and making them live in each others laps will end with Kumbaya. In fact it ends with everyone on edge, peering at each other silently as they sweat the value of their tiny piece of it.
    - zyxley 11y ago
      > Anxiety is high among residence. [citation needed]
    - TulliusCicero 11y ago
      Ok, it's pretty clear now that you just have a personal grudge against any sort of density, man. You need extra space to be happy, that's fine, but you're not everyone. Look across the pond at Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. > Remove that and replace it with a degree of liberty Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be, so that people's individual choices dictate what's available, rather than the law. It's supporting all modes of transportation so that people have an actual choice in how they get around, instead of being required to drive to do anything or go anywhere. Forcing everyone into what topspin thinks is best isn't liberty, it's coercion.
      - Pyxl101 11y ago
        > Western Europe or Japan: two very different cultures, both higher-density than the US, both tend to have higher social cohesion than in America, not lower. It's a lot easier to have "high social cohesion" when you have a uniform culture that's been around for centuries, and are not living in a nation of immigrants from all over. I have nothing against that, by the way, but I'm simply pointing out that many countries like Japan are fairly xenophobic at best, racist at worst. I believe there was an article on HN recently about how difficult it is to found a start up in Japan as a foreigner. Plus, I'm not sure this kind of tight-knit culture is something I'd want to be a part of: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/ > The company is your public life. Have an issue with your landlord? The company will handle it, in those cases where the company is not your landlord.[...] Need to file paperwork with City Hall? Someone from HR can do it for you. > The company is your private life. All friends you’ve made since your school days almost by definition work for your company, because you spend substantially every waking hour officially at work or at quote leisure unquote with people from work. That sounds to me like modern-day feudalism. ---- > Do you know what liberty is? It's letting the market have a say in how dense developments can be What's wrong with the people in each area voting for the laws that govern their area? If the people in an area don't want to vote for an increase in density, then so be it. Let them live their lives how they want to.
- TulliusCicero 11y ago
  > anti-car municipal governments impeding road development In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." > However, actual contact with neighbors was very sparse; a service for every need, everything on auto-pilot. The last three months I've been living semi-rural in the midwest; all the households are on two acres (minimum, due to to well and septic density.) I've had more direct contact with my neighbors in these 12 weeks than the previous 21 years put together. Maintaining larger properties that are much more distant from the urban core invites collaboration. Household attendance at the HOA meeting last month was almost 50%; waaay more than I saw back in the Front Range burbs. Honestly, this just sounds like your personality is more attuned to a rural area; you're fitting in better, and therefore socializing more. There are certainly people like yourself for whom this is the case, and that's absolutely fine. The problem with the regulations I mentioned isn't that they allow for low-density development, it's that they enforce low-density development. Also, what you're describing still matches the article more or less: you don't really have spontaneous interaction in the community, but you do have intentional/planned interaction.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    > In my experience, this translates as, "governments who think non-car transportation modes should be treated as seriously as cars." I agree with you but in the sense that non-car transports should be treated much more seriously than cars, which I suspect is not what you meant to transmit.
- rcurry 11y ago
  My experience has been the same as yours - I spent years living in NYC and years living in rural Wisconsin. The difference, in terms of social contact, is remarkable. It used to kill me when I'd roll up to a complete stranger's farm to ask for permission to hunt out on their property and end up getting dragged into the house to have dinner with their family, ha ha.
  - prawn 11y ago
    Is that because of the people themselves, or because you had a reason to interact socially? I think given reasons to interact, people in denser areas have just as healthy relationships. But many of us don't create those opportunities by default on the street or in the apartment lift. But provide a little catalyst (street parade, removalist trying to reverse down a tight lane, lost dog, etc) and people come together.
JoshTriplett 11y ago
> Minimum parking requirements On the flipside, if you have friends who aren't right next door (or perhaps who once were and you don't want to write them off because they moved), it helps to have the ability to drive to their place. I'm not arguing for "car first", but I don't think "pedestrian first" makes sense either. Most of my friends are scattered around a 20-minute radius. (And quite frankly, you can choose your friends but you can't really choose your neighbors.) > anti-density zoning laws I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing.
- krasin 11y ago
  >I'd have less problem with dense housing (especially since I don't actually care about the stereotypical "yard and a white picket fence") if said housing started including -90dB or better soundproofing. Yep. Instead of having a thousand of single-family houses, I would rather have a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius. Cars are expected to live underground and reach the surface outside of the park. Saying that as I have lived a few years in a very similar setting, while being at a university: http://cdn.absolutevisit.com/blog/photo-of-the-day/100075/Moscow-State-University-Reflection-Moscow-Russia.jpg http://cdn.absolutevisit.com/blog/photo-of-the-day/100075/Mo...
  - zyxley 11y ago
    > a beautiful 30+ stories castle surrounded by a park of ~1 km radius The problem with this is that you're basically getting the worst of both worlds. You lose many of the real benefits of dense development because there's no space for jobs and shopping, and you lose the benefits of privately kept land like customized yards and broken-up sightlines and so on. The "giant building separated from everything else by a giant moat of grass" style also has a long, ugly history in public housing developments, with it meant as idealistic but ultimately turning to crap.
    - JoshTriplett 11y ago
hugh4 11y ago
On the other hand, people in rural areas tend to be on friendlier terms with their neighbours than people in high-density areas. For various reasons, including the fact that it's much easier to be on good terms with your neighbour when he lives way over the other side of the hill and nothing he does really affects you or vice versa. Also because of necessity -- if there's only two people in a ten-mile radius who can help you if you have a problem, it's nice to be on good terms with them. And finally just the fact that the fewer people you come into contact with, the easier it is to become friends with them. If you keep running into the same fifty people over and over again you'll get to know them, but most of the people I see in the city are people I'll never see again.
- TulliusCicero 11y ago
  > On the other hand, people in rural areas tend to be on friendlier terms with their neighbours than people in high-density areas. Ostensibly friendlier, but how often do they actually interact on a day-to-day basis? (I agree with the rest of your post)

pasbesoin 11y ago

Counterpoint: If you've ever really been burned by having a crappy neighbor -- or a string of them -- you may be inclined to get as far away as possible. I'm sensitive to noise, and I ended up not with average neighbors but with extremely noisy ones, on multiple occasions. (On one occasion, inescapable even when I was across the street and down two houses.) I'd like a greater sense of community, but I never want to go through that, again. I don't know whether manners have changed, or more people are sensitive to noise (some aspect of the autistic spectrum or the like?). Regardless, for me, higher density living will only become attractive with improvements in soundproofing of such units and/or better control of noisy behavior. (Come to think of it, people didn't used to have such absurd stereos and televisions producing such absurd levels of bass, either -- on average. Not that that is the only problem with noise, these days.) P.S. I'll add that the sound of kids playing and the like doesn't bother me, in reasonable measure. The situations I encountered went FAR beyond that. Sociologists/anthropologists and urban planners need to broaden their perspective with regard to this, in my opinion, when considering contemporary U.S. environments and their like. Further, I can add that I have made upwards of 10 good friends in the last decade. Not neighbors -- although I am friendly with several of them -- but people who, while differing in details and some beliefs and opinions, are kind and respectful. So... is it that we don't have "casual interactions" near our homes? Or, is something else going on? Probably some of each. Again, if you want to promote higher density living, amongst other things ameliorate the noise issues. Better sound-proofing. Effective ordinances.

PhantomGremlin 11y ago
I ended up not with average neighbors but with extremely noisy ones It might not even be the neighbor himself, it could be his dog. A dog that barks constantly, for little or no reason, at all odd hours. Or, something that happened to me, a neighbor with a rooster. A rooster that loved to start crowing at about 4 or 5 AM!
kenesom1 11y ago
Sadly the housing situation in most metropolitan areas is an assault on all the senses. Housing right next to highways, no sound insulation between units, damp buildings infested with mold, inadequate ventilation, overflowing trash bins. A lot of it is down to the short-term objectives of most property development projects, management companies who are unwilling to properly maintain buildings, and shoddy building standards in the US - flimsy materials, stick-built buildings instead of concrete, etc. The housing stock is in terrible shape and current policy encourages the development of disposable buildings that are barely livable. Poor noise control in building designs results in: Everyone's Upstairs Neighbors - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IRB0sxw-YU

ChuckMcM 11y ago

Well I have learned a lot from my wife in this regard, we walk our dog in the early evenings and say Hi! and chat with anyone willing to stop and talk. Perhaps the biggest thing I learned is that you have to give your time unconditionally, sometimes for a while, before people will trust you enough to reciprocate. But you can break down barriers this way.

PhantomGremlin 11y ago

Something that I haven't seen mentioned here is online communities. E.g. HN. Or the thousands of other websites that cater to the varied interests we have. It's not the same as real life, in person interaction. But it does result in "friendships" of a sort. It allows people to interact with like minded individuals. Much different than everyone being passive consumers watching the boob tube.