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This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of

This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to generate profits can eschew it and take a moral high ground why can't the government do it? Are the cheap goods from china so necessary that it is not worth antagonizing China ? EDIT: Additional details from Enterprise blog post http://googleenterprise.blogspot.com/2010/01/keeping-your-data-safe.html http://googleenterprise.blogspot.com/2010/01/keeping-your-da... It was an attack on the technology infrastructure of major corporations in sectors as diverse as finance, technology, media, and chemical This is clearly an act of espionage by the Chinese Government. The bigger questions is whether these are the only companies targeted or the only ones discovered. This is not the first time, the chinese have tried something like this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7970471.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7970471.stm The researchers said hackers were apparently able to take control of computers belonging to several foreign ministries and embassies across the world using malicious software

credo 17y ago
I hope this increases the pressure on other search providers to do the right thing. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds
- pavs 17y ago
  > It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds. Chinese Gov will be glad if google leaves - they have nothing to loose. Their credibility as an ethical government will be bruised, not that there was any credibility to begin with.
  - michaelneale 17y ago
    Don't assume that the Chinese Gov. are ignorant of PR dangers, they aren't irrational. It would be complex mixed feelings.
    - omouse 17y ago
      They can spin this easily. Google is showing porn images in their search results or some other bullshit story. They would do that, and it would make their local search engine Baidu look very good in comparison. They could also spin it as Google not being able to stand the competition and "look! Westerns can't help us, they don't know anything about us!" They aren't ignorant of PR and they know when to apply force and when to hold back.
      - damien 17y ago
        It seems they've already started that kind of spin. For example, in the wsj article: "Chinese internet analysts said they were shocked by the Google announcement, but at the same time they understood the reasons behind its threat to back out of China. They said the cyber attacks have exposed Google's inability to protect its users' privacy..." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126335402591827235.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126335402591827235.html
        michaelneale 17y ago
        Yes they have spun things that way - spinning it as good news for them. But it won't hold forever. People are not ignorant - well at least not all of them, not all the time ;)
        bad_user 17y ago
        > They said the cyber attacks have exposed Google's inability to protect its users' privacy This can always backfire on them ... once groups like those at 4chan get working on Baidu :) And I'd be willing to bet that Google has a much more reliable security. Not to mention that this statement is kind of hypocritical ... since when are they concerned about privacy? Also ... these PR spins won't work for them internationally ... since communism has a negative image, and this is one of the factors considered when extending a business to China. So they have a more relaxed communism, allowing privately owned companies to thrive ... but look, Google announced they were hurt by the Chinese government, and apparently they weren't the only ones. Whom would you be more inclined to believe? And Google is also good at PR :)
  - CWuestefeld 17y ago
    On the contrary, the services that Google provides are very important. It's hard for me to imagine China in the role of technology leadership that they'd like, without the support of Google's services. I think that China's leadership needs to give serious thought to what it'll cost them if their industry and their people can't (legally) use Google.
    - gommm 17y ago
      They did use to block google regularly before Google came in China... And Baidu is quite a bit more popular with Chinese people than Google so I'm not sure if that will be the problem... What might be bad for China though is all the investment Google made on research and the PR disaster (and the chinese government is very concerned with face).
- cakesy 17y ago
  Ha, funny. Microsoft will follow the money, no matter that they have to do. They always have an always will. I wish it was different.
- angelbob 17y ago
  And interesting to see how Bing responds...
  - mikeliu 17y ago
    I think this is the best thing that ever happened to Bing, not Baidu. Google users in China will not switch to Baidu, they will switch to Bing; they use google because they feel it has more unbiased results coming from a non-govt backed entity. To a chinese google user, Baidu is an ad search engine and a govt lapdog. I wouldn't be surprised if google's market share got snapped up by Bing if they do leave.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- jwoodruff 17y ago
  I hope this increases pressure on other COMPANIES in general to do the right thing, especially in regards to China.
btilly 17y ago
What you say is true. Yet is this move in any way inconsistent with how Google has generally been running its business? To me that is the most remarkable fact in the whole affair.
- boundlessdreamz 17y ago
  They were willing to censor results. No more. I would say that is a big change in the way they are willing to run the business. Something about this affair must have stung Google. Either morally (going after human rights activists) or in business (increased risks of attacks and infiltration)
  - btilly 17y ago
    That in itself was a significant enough shift from their normal operating procedure for me to think of it as an exception, and they were bothered enough by it that they felt they had to justify it. Also their justification at least made some sense, so the decision that they came to wasn't entirely out of character with how they generally operate.
  - nfnaaron 17y ago
    "Something about this affair must have stung Google." Maybe China had promised Google clean networks in exchange for censorship?
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - ubernostrum 17y ago
    They censored results, yes, but I was always intrigued by the way they did it. In case you never looked into it, they implemented a system similar to what they do in the US with DMCA complaints: remove the offending results, but provide a notice saying that some results were removed. Which is really a pretty bold step; rather than being a simple invisible removal, it was an in-your-face "your government didn't want you to see the results for this query" approach.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
siculars 17y ago
I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a broad public move. As far as I'm concerned, Google has just turned me into a lifelong user.
- djcapelis 17y ago
  > I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. I'm not sure these types of interactions can still be described as corporate espionage. The fact that one of these parties is a sovereign nation creates wrinkle to this whole thing. (From what I understand China doesn't directly link themselves too closely with this but no one really thinks this isn't covert stuff being directed by their government.)
  - rms 17y ago
    It's further muddled because China is a sovereign nation with significant corporate holdings.
  - dubcomesaveme 17y ago
    Governments are basically corporations with varying degrees of public ownership that have monopolies on societal goods. I would consider this corporate espionage. The US also engages in corporate espionage through the NSA in the interest of its defense contractors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELO... (last paragraph)
- itistoday 17y ago
  > I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for realizing that it's not good to bow down and comply with a government that tortures and locks up its citizens for speaking their minds, but they don't deserve any sort of hero worship.
cwan 17y ago
I have to imagine they have also weighed the business calculus on this. Where they might lose in China for now, will enhance their reputation elsewhere - particularly given how they've come under increased criticism in a wide range of fields. This decision whether intentionally so or in keeping with their stated mission is highly symbolic. Further, don't think this won't help them in China over the long run either. When a "glastnost" comes to China, as it did Russia, if they're clever about marketing, using Google could ultimately be a symbol of new found freedoms. The fact that the Chinese government has made it difficult for them to operate, given competitors an operational advantage and enabled hackers that attack them and other firms, must make it an easier risk to take. Being the idealist I am, I want to believe, and I think there's a good probability that doing the right thing here, will mean greater profits now and in the future.
- netcan 17y ago
  The more right you are, the more significant this is. Already Google have made a lot of people believe that "Don't be Evil" is a good business strategy. Regardless of the truth of this sentiment, it is to the benefit of society. The more the slogan is fleshed out and the more evidence accrues that this is indeed good business practice, the more companies will follow.
  - cwan 17y ago
    An additional thought: this could potentially be genius from a business strategy standpoint against Microsoft. I confess I've been weighing the possibility of switching to Bing for a variety of reasons but because of this I'm less likely to do so. After the dust settles, if Google is able to change Chinese government policy on search that would be monumental. If they aren't and ultimately leave China, that puts the spotlight on other infotech firms particularly Microsoft which has far more to lose by leaving China. On the other hand, if Microsoft chooses to do nothing and stay, it reinforces in the minds of users internationally a key point of differentiation between Google and Microsoft.
    - netcan 17y ago
forkandwait 17y ago
... This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company... I don't want to romanticize times gone by, but I think at certain points in history there have been people who controlled large companies also knew that their sustainable existence depended on a healthy society; there might be short term costs to investing in such a society, but the long term benefits are enormous. In the neo-liberal era, this approach is no longer given any credence, but that is Bad Thing, indeed, and really just plain foolishness. (Please somebody explain the downvote.)
- jacoblyles 17y ago
  I downvoted you for your unsupported claim that "In the neo-liberal era, this approach is no longer given any credence". I also downvoted you for complaining about a downvote, which probably gave you more sympathy upvotes than you deserved.
  - forkandwait 17y ago
    By the definition of neoliberal, non-market structures are considered bad. But you don't know that, or you wouldn't have downvoted me, at least not the first time. Why you might have downvoted me is that you think a shift away from more socialist structures toward more market structures is a good thing, or (less likely) that we are not in a neoliberal era. In either case, to downvote an opinion because you think it is wrong seems silly to me. Why not write a rebuttal, if you're so smart? I think I have come to take more pride in my vote volatility than in having lots of karma; when I watch it go up and down on a post I think -- wow, people actually care about what I said. And anyone who actually worries about their karma points on HN.... well, sorry about that. Oh -- I do appreciate the explanation.
    - andreyf 17y ago
      I do appreciate the explanation. I have a better one: you sound snotty and smarter than me. Burn him!
    - cturner 17y ago
liuliu 17y ago
And for all these years, Google China has done decent job by providing Google Pinyin, Goolge Music for China to the country. I really appreciate that. Hoping this decision was just a beginning of a bigger picture.
- lallysingh 17y ago
  Which also makes their departure a bigger negotiating point with the Chinese government.
  - liuliu 17y ago
    It is not a negotiating, it is a choice that Google already made by not censoring search result. Chinese gov is known for the attitude not negotiating with human right activists.
    - djcapelis 17y ago
      I checked google.cn and the results still seem to be censored. The blog post says they will stop the censorship, not that they already have. I think they're leaving the door open for the government to save some face here and approve it if it wants. That said, they did not leave a whole lot of room for China to save face and that may be enough to sink any hope of progress on that front.
Quarrelsome 17y ago
I hate to be cynical but isn't Google's share in China only equivalent to a pawn sacrifice? If you consider the brand++; in other markets maybe even a gain.
- netcan 17y ago
  Isn't you charitable donation just a way of making yourself feel better?
- mikedouglas 17y ago
  The latest numbers I could find place Google's search market share in China at 19.8%[0]. Sadly, I think 19.8% of China's internet users is much, much larger than the number of people who decide search providers based on the ethical record of the company. [0]: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/06/google-baidu-swap-market-share-in-china http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/06/google-baidu-sw...
  - dskhatri 17y ago
    Google handles 29% of searches in China (vs. Baidu's 62%) [1] Thanks to javed for the reference. [1] http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100112/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_google_china http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100112/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_googl...
- dskhatri 17y ago
  ".. in other markets maybe even a gain" Google may lose out in other markets as well. Authoritarian governments will become weary of Google even more now.
ErrantX 17y ago
I think the most amazing thing here is the way they are going about this. I think it would be naive to imagine that this is a move based solely on ethics (but, then, you never know - I wouldn't want to do them the disservice of ruling it out utterly). But to do it with such direct criticism of the Chinese government. Even if it is a veiled reference there can be little doubt about the claims. The only inference I can think of is that they are very sure (or have proof) it is the Chinese government that are responsible (I cant help feeling if it was corporate or extremist groups etc. they would be directly named - or at least more clearly referenced). It's a huge political statement. Im glade I stuck with Google through the last few months and the spate of anti-google sentiment starting to emerge (the cynic might suggest this grand gesture is related...?).
- youngian 17y ago
  I agree. It's practically a declaration of war. And someone on their PR team deserves some kudos for writing a release that makes some damning accusations very clear without ever stating them explicitly.
rabidgnat 17y ago
"I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop." Half of the surprise I received reading this article was my shock that the Chinese government would attack profitable companies like Google. Sure, they've always attacked foreign governments, but China's government depends on US companies spending Dollars overseas. Since consumer spending is down in USA, it only seems natural for China to start banking on the successful industries of today, like internet advertising. Is the political danger of human rights activists really worth more than the money that Google brings? Or were their egos so high that they thought they could get away with it, either by avoiding detection or keeping Google at status quo Maybe the Chinese government + military is just too huge to get everyone to toe the party line.
- codexon 17y ago
  Last time I checked, the Chinese didn't need Google. They have communist party approved Baidu.
- garply 17y ago
  Google is not very big in China anyway, the Chinese gov't doesn't stand to lose much.
  - enomar 17y ago
    A company like Google saying that it isn't safe to do business in China has to at least annoy them to some degree.
    - onoj 17y ago
      What is really interesting to me (i live in china) is that now that they have made this public it is impossible for them to continue doing business in china. Due to the social rules here if they wanted to save the situation in any way it should have been done privately. Given that they are clever people they know that announcing this will kill the china business. It is in essence a "slap", "we're out of here".
Femur 17y ago
How often do you cross-post the exact same comment between HN and reddit? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aouv5/new_approach_to_china/c0iny14 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aouv5/new_appro... Edit: I may have jumped to conclusions; the individual on reddit may have very well stolen your comment in which case my accusation is invalid.
- PieSquared 17y ago
  If it's the same article, why shouldn't it be the same comment?
- tjic 17y ago
  What's so wrong with saying the same thing in two different conversations?
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Nothing, as long as it's the same person saying it.
- andreyf 17y ago
  the individual on reddit may have very well stolen your comment I did, thought of it more as a social experiment than theft, though. Apologies to boundlessdreamz, if he cares...
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    That's pretty low.
    - andreyf 17y ago
      Huh? To cross-post a comment from news.YC to reddit? Why?
      - jacquesm 17y ago
jordyhoyt 17y ago
My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good." The parallel here, in my mind, is that Google has an opportunity for accomplishing several things while "posturing" for war with the Chinese government: * Put pressure on the Chinese government to change. This is the public-facing goal of the campaign. The cause. * Make up for any negative press about privacy by reinforcing the idea that their users' accounts are meant to be completely private and secure. * Align themselves with human-rights causes, garnering trust amid doubts about trustworthiness and projecting a policy on censorship. Posturing for war will likely prove very good for Google, and may result in the Chinese government caving. But if they actually have to go to war, it will be painful. In my mind, it would be ideal for Google to posture for as long as they can, and as loud as they can, and see if they can't get the Chinese government to back down at all. Any significant win, without going to war, could be cause to not go to war, for it could be wrapped up as the government "cooperating". Never attribute to goodwill, that which can be more adequately explained by good marketing.
- joe_the_user 17y ago
  Actually, I think Google very definitely declared war on China by making very public, very damning accusations. The Chinese government could not possible allow itself to be seen caving into a single corporation and Google now cannot allow itself to be seen going back on "Don't Be Evil". This is the end for Google and China. War should be avoided at most costs but not all costs. Right on Google.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good." You had a history teacher who said this?!? Doesn't the period of history he teaches include the United States war against the Axis (World War II)? Yes, the United States delayed entering that war about as long as any country could, but it was on the right side of that war, and it was better for the world that the United States went to war in that case. (Similar points could be made about other countries in other wars; I mention the United States only because you mentioned a teacher of United States history.)
omouse 17y ago
If it's an attack done by the Chinese government, then Google's withdrawal from the country would be welcome by them. It would increase the market share of Baidu, the local Chinese-based earch engine. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to generate profits can eschew it and take a moral high ground why can't the government do it? Are the cheap goods from china so necessary that it is not worth antagonizing China ? It's been time to do that for a very long time...cheap goods aren't worth it at all.
- ytinas 17y ago
  I agree, but are you ready to pay what it really costs to make things?
  - Retric 17y ago
    Yes, but I buy few physical goods relative to my income.
boundlessdreamz 17y ago
According to GiagOm "if the Chinese government bans the search giant, then Google could be walking away from about $600 million in 2010 revenues." http://gigaom.com/2010/01/12/how-much-will-it-cost-google-to-exit-china/ http://gigaom.com/2010/01/12/how-much-will-it-cost-google-to...
- s3graham 17y ago
  David Drummond on CNBC said that the value of the Chinese business was "immaterial either way". I don't think 600M is immaterial for G yet, so something's not right. And given that the gigaom article incorrectly says that google has already stopped censoring, I'm inclined to believe they're randoming making shit up.
- vorg 17y ago
  "$600 million in 2010 revenues" But what's the profit, i.e. less the costs? And in what currency and which country's banks is that profit (if any)?
- neilk 17y ago
  It doesn't matter what the current revenues are, or even the profits. The point is to be part of the fastest growing market in the world, and to be an option when many new consumers are choosing online services. If Google is deciding that they don't want in on this, it's not about giving up millions today; it's about forgoing billions from the next decade.
sireat 17y ago
I am proud of the Google, but the skeptic in me says: Google knows that it is not in a leading position in China and has been losing market share there. The fight there is probably not a fair one(but where is it a fair one?). http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-Drops-in-Market-Share-in-China-122465.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-Drops-in-Market-Share-... Thus they can make a strong, positive statement that the rest of the market will applaud, while not really losing that much(although 12% of China is still quite a bit).
joecode 17y ago
In the long run, this is actually a very good and profitable business decision by Google. If the Chinese government is allowed to continue their human rights abuses, it will have major economic ramifications for everyone as China continues to grow in power. "If you dance with the devil, you have to pay the piper."

credo 17y ago

I hope this increases the pressure on other search providers to do the right thing. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds

pavs 17y ago
> It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds. Chinese Gov will be glad if google leaves - they have nothing to loose. Their credibility as an ethical government will be bruised, not that there was any credibility to begin with.
- michaelneale 17y ago
  Don't assume that the Chinese Gov. are ignorant of PR dangers, they aren't irrational. It would be complex mixed feelings.
  - omouse 17y ago
    They can spin this easily. Google is showing porn images in their search results or some other bullshit story. They would do that, and it would make their local search engine Baidu look very good in comparison. They could also spin it as Google not being able to stand the competition and "look! Westerns can't help us, they don't know anything about us!" They aren't ignorant of PR and they know when to apply force and when to hold back.
    - damien 17y ago
      It seems they've already started that kind of spin. For example, in the wsj article: "Chinese internet analysts said they were shocked by the Google announcement, but at the same time they understood the reasons behind its threat to back out of China. They said the cyber attacks have exposed Google's inability to protect its users' privacy..." http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126335402591827235.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126335402591827235.html
      - michaelneale 17y ago
        Yes they have spun things that way - spinning it as good news for them. But it won't hold forever. People are not ignorant - well at least not all of them, not all the time ;)
      - bad_user 17y ago
        > They said the cyber attacks have exposed Google's inability to protect its users' privacy This can always backfire on them ... once groups like those at 4chan get working on Baidu :) And I'd be willing to bet that Google has a much more reliable security. Not to mention that this statement is kind of hypocritical ... since when are they concerned about privacy? Also ... these PR spins won't work for them internationally ... since communism has a negative image, and this is one of the factors considered when extending a business to China. So they have a more relaxed communism, allowing privately owned companies to thrive ... but look, Google announced they were hurt by the Chinese government, and apparently they weren't the only ones. Whom would you be more inclined to believe? And Google is also good at PR :)
- CWuestefeld 17y ago
  On the contrary, the services that Google provides are very important. It's hard for me to imagine China in the role of technology leadership that they'd like, without the support of Google's services. I think that China's leadership needs to give serious thought to what it'll cost them if their industry and their people can't (legally) use Google.
  - gommm 17y ago
    They did use to block google regularly before Google came in China... And Baidu is quite a bit more popular with Chinese people than Google so I'm not sure if that will be the problem... What might be bad for China though is all the investment Google made on research and the PR disaster (and the chinese government is very concerned with face).
cakesy 17y ago
Ha, funny. Microsoft will follow the money, no matter that they have to do. They always have an always will. I wish it was different.
angelbob 17y ago
And interesting to see how Bing responds...
- mikeliu 17y ago
  I think this is the best thing that ever happened to Bing, not Baidu. Google users in China will not switch to Baidu, they will switch to Bing; they use google because they feel it has more unbiased results coming from a non-govt backed entity. To a chinese google user, Baidu is an ad search engine and a govt lapdog. I wouldn't be surprised if google's market share got snapped up by Bing if they do leave.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
jwoodruff 17y ago
I hope this increases pressure on other COMPANIES in general to do the right thing, especially in regards to China.

btilly 17y ago

What you say is true. Yet is this move in any way inconsistent with how Google has generally been running its business? To me that is the most remarkable fact in the whole affair.

boundlessdreamz 17y ago
They were willing to censor results. No more. I would say that is a big change in the way they are willing to run the business. Something about this affair must have stung Google. Either morally (going after human rights activists) or in business (increased risks of attacks and infiltration)
- btilly 17y ago
  That in itself was a significant enough shift from their normal operating procedure for me to think of it as an exception, and they were bothered enough by it that they felt they had to justify it. Also their justification at least made some sense, so the decision that they came to wasn't entirely out of character with how they generally operate.
- nfnaaron 17y ago
  "Something about this affair must have stung Google." Maybe China had promised Google clean networks in exchange for censorship?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- ubernostrum 17y ago
  They censored results, yes, but I was always intrigued by the way they did it. In case you never looked into it, they implemented a system similar to what they do in the US with DMCA complaints: remove the offending results, but provide a notice saying that some results were removed. Which is really a pretty bold step; rather than being a simple invisible removal, it was an in-your-face "your government didn't want you to see the results for this query" approach.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

siculars 17y ago

I am so proud of Google right now. It's hard to contain. It is high time somoene stood up to China and let them know enough is enough. I sincerely hope other corporations follow suit. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am sure there is more to the story than is being let on now. I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. Good for Google calling them on it and making a broad public move. As far as I'm concerned, Google has just turned me into a lifelong user.

djcapelis 17y ago
> I could only imagine the level of corporate espionage that is in play between China and Google. I'm not sure these types of interactions can still be described as corporate espionage. The fact that one of these parties is a sovereign nation creates wrinkle to this whole thing. (From what I understand China doesn't directly link themselves too closely with this but no one really thinks this isn't covert stuff being directed by their government.)
- rms 17y ago
  It's further muddled because China is a sovereign nation with significant corporate holdings.
- dubcomesaveme 17y ago
  Governments are basically corporations with varying degrees of public ownership that have monopolies on societal goods. I would consider this corporate espionage. The US also engages in corporate espionage through the NSA in the interest of its defense contractors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELON http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Agency#ECHELO... (last paragraph)
itistoday 17y ago
> I am so proud of Google right now. I am too, but I think we should remember that China's citizens were and still are being censored, killed, and tortured on a daily basis. Google was fine doing business with them and even assisting in their censorship. Only until Google found itself on the receiving end of China's baton did it finally decide to change their relationship. They deserve kudos and a pat on the back for realizing that it's not good to bow down and comply with a government that tortures and locks up its citizens for speaking their minds, but they don't deserve any sort of hero worship.

cwan 17y ago

I have to imagine they have also weighed the business calculus on this. Where they might lose in China for now, will enhance their reputation elsewhere - particularly given how they've come under increased criticism in a wide range of fields. This decision whether intentionally so or in keeping with their stated mission is highly symbolic. Further, don't think this won't help them in China over the long run either. When a "glastnost" comes to China, as it did Russia, if they're clever about marketing, using Google could ultimately be a symbol of new found freedoms. The fact that the Chinese government has made it difficult for them to operate, given competitors an operational advantage and enabled hackers that attack them and other firms, must make it an easier risk to take. Being the idealist I am, I want to believe, and I think there's a good probability that doing the right thing here, will mean greater profits now and in the future.

netcan 17y ago
The more right you are, the more significant this is. Already Google have made a lot of people believe that "Don't be Evil" is a good business strategy. Regardless of the truth of this sentiment, it is to the benefit of society. The more the slogan is fleshed out and the more evidence accrues that this is indeed good business practice, the more companies will follow.
- cwan 17y ago
  An additional thought: this could potentially be genius from a business strategy standpoint against Microsoft. I confess I've been weighing the possibility of switching to Bing for a variety of reasons but because of this I'm less likely to do so. After the dust settles, if Google is able to change Chinese government policy on search that would be monumental. If they aren't and ultimately leave China, that puts the spotlight on other infotech firms particularly Microsoft which has far more to lose by leaving China. On the other hand, if Microsoft chooses to do nothing and stay, it reinforces in the minds of users internationally a key point of differentiation between Google and Microsoft.
  - netcan 17y ago

forkandwait 17y ago

... This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company... I don't want to romanticize times gone by, but I think at certain points in history there have been people who controlled large companies also knew that their sustainable existence depended on a healthy society; there might be short term costs to investing in such a society, but the long term benefits are enormous. In the neo-liberal era, this approach is no longer given any credence, but that is Bad Thing, indeed, and really just plain foolishness. (Please somebody explain the downvote.)

jacoblyles 17y ago
I downvoted you for your unsupported claim that "In the neo-liberal era, this approach is no longer given any credence". I also downvoted you for complaining about a downvote, which probably gave you more sympathy upvotes than you deserved.
- forkandwait 17y ago
  By the definition of neoliberal, non-market structures are considered bad. But you don't know that, or you wouldn't have downvoted me, at least not the first time. Why you might have downvoted me is that you think a shift away from more socialist structures toward more market structures is a good thing, or (less likely) that we are not in a neoliberal era. In either case, to downvote an opinion because you think it is wrong seems silly to me. Why not write a rebuttal, if you're so smart? I think I have come to take more pride in my vote volatility than in having lots of karma; when I watch it go up and down on a post I think -- wow, people actually care about what I said. And anyone who actually worries about their karma points on HN.... well, sorry about that. Oh -- I do appreciate the explanation.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    I do appreciate the explanation. I have a better one: you sound snotty and smarter than me. Burn him!
  - cturner 17y ago

liuliu 17y ago

And for all these years, Google China has done decent job by providing Google Pinyin, Goolge Music for China to the country. I really appreciate that. Hoping this decision was just a beginning of a bigger picture.

lallysingh 17y ago
Which also makes their departure a bigger negotiating point with the Chinese government.
- liuliu 17y ago
  It is not a negotiating, it is a choice that Google already made by not censoring search result. Chinese gov is known for the attitude not negotiating with human right activists.
  - djcapelis 17y ago
    I checked google.cn and the results still seem to be censored. The blog post says they will stop the censorship, not that they already have. I think they're leaving the door open for the government to save some face here and approve it if it wants. That said, they did not leave a whole lot of room for China to save face and that may be enough to sink any hope of progress on that front.

Quarrelsome 17y ago

I hate to be cynical but isn't Google's share in China only equivalent to a pawn sacrifice? If you consider the brand++; in other markets maybe even a gain.

netcan 17y ago
Isn't you charitable donation just a way of making yourself feel better?
mikedouglas 17y ago
The latest numbers I could find place Google's search market share in China at 19.8%[0]. Sadly, I think 19.8% of China's internet users is much, much larger than the number of people who decide search providers based on the ethical record of the company. [0]: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/06/google-baidu-swap-market-share-in-china http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/06/google-baidu-sw...
- dskhatri 17y ago
  Google handles 29% of searches in China (vs. Baidu's 62%) [1] Thanks to javed for the reference. [1] http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100112/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_google_china http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100112/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_googl...
dskhatri 17y ago
".. in other markets maybe even a gain" Google may lose out in other markets as well. Authoritarian governments will become weary of Google even more now.

ErrantX 17y ago

I think the most amazing thing here is the way they are going about this. I think it would be naive to imagine that this is a move based solely on ethics (but, then, you never know - I wouldn't want to do them the disservice of ruling it out utterly). But to do it with such direct criticism of the Chinese government. Even if it is a veiled reference there can be little doubt about the claims. The only inference I can think of is that they are very sure (or have proof) it is the Chinese government that are responsible (I cant help feeling if it was corporate or extremist groups etc. they would be directly named - or at least more clearly referenced). It's a huge political statement. Im glade I stuck with Google through the last few months and the spate of anti-google sentiment starting to emerge (the cynic might suggest this grand gesture is related...?).

youngian 17y ago
I agree. It's practically a declaration of war. And someone on their PR team deserves some kudos for writing a release that makes some damning accusations very clear without ever stating them explicitly.

rabidgnat 17y ago

"I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop." Half of the surprise I received reading this article was my shock that the Chinese government would attack profitable companies like Google. Sure, they've always attacked foreign governments, but China's government depends on US companies spending Dollars overseas. Since consumer spending is down in USA, it only seems natural for China to start banking on the successful industries of today, like internet advertising. Is the political danger of human rights activists really worth more than the money that Google brings? Or were their egos so high that they thought they could get away with it, either by avoiding detection or keeping Google at status quo Maybe the Chinese government + military is just too huge to get everyone to toe the party line.

codexon 17y ago
Last time I checked, the Chinese didn't need Google. They have communist party approved Baidu.
garply 17y ago
Google is not very big in China anyway, the Chinese gov't doesn't stand to lose much.
- enomar 17y ago
  A company like Google saying that it isn't safe to do business in China has to at least annoy them to some degree.
  - onoj 17y ago
    What is really interesting to me (i live in china) is that now that they have made this public it is impossible for them to continue doing business in china. Due to the social rules here if they wanted to save the situation in any way it should have been done privately. Given that they are clever people they know that announcing this will kill the china business. It is in essence a "slap", "we're out of here".

Femur 17y ago

How often do you cross-post the exact same comment between HN and reddit? http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aouv5/new_approach_to_china/c0iny14 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aouv5/new_appro... Edit: I may have jumped to conclusions; the individual on reddit may have very well stolen your comment in which case my accusation is invalid.

PieSquared 17y ago
If it's the same article, why shouldn't it be the same comment?
tjic 17y ago
What's so wrong with saying the same thing in two different conversations?
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Nothing, as long as it's the same person saying it.
andreyf 17y ago
the individual on reddit may have very well stolen your comment I did, thought of it more as a social experiment than theft, though. Apologies to boundlessdreamz, if he cares...
- jacquesm 17y ago
  That's pretty low.
  - andreyf 17y ago
    Huh? To cross-post a comment from news.YC to reddit? Why?
    - jacquesm 17y ago

jordyhoyt 17y ago

My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good." The parallel here, in my mind, is that Google has an opportunity for accomplishing several things while "posturing" for war with the Chinese government: * Put pressure on the Chinese government to change. This is the public-facing goal of the campaign. The cause. * Make up for any negative press about privacy by reinforcing the idea that their users' accounts are meant to be completely private and secure. * Align themselves with human-rights causes, garnering trust amid doubts about trustworthiness and projecting a policy on censorship. Posturing for war will likely prove very good for Google, and may result in the Chinese government caving. But if they actually have to go to war, it will be painful. In my mind, it would be ideal for Google to posture for as long as they can, and as loud as they can, and see if they can't get the Chinese government to back down at all. Any significant win, without going to war, could be cause to not go to war, for it could be wrapped up as the government "cooperating". Never attribute to goodwill, that which can be more adequately explained by good marketing.

joe_the_user 17y ago
Actually, I think Google very definitely declared war on China by making very public, very damning accusations. The Chinese government could not possible allow itself to be seen caving into a single corporation and Google now cannot allow itself to be seen going back on "Don't Be Evil". This is the end for Google and China. War should be avoided at most costs but not all costs. Right on Google.
tokenadult 17y ago
My high school US history teacher said this (during the ramp-up to the Iraq war): "Posturing for war can be very good, actually going to war is NEVER good." You had a history teacher who said this?!? Doesn't the period of history he teaches include the United States war against the Axis (World War II)? Yes, the United States delayed entering that war about as long as any country could, but it was on the right side of that war, and it was better for the world that the United States went to war in that case. (Similar points could be made about other countries in other wars; I mention the United States only because you mentioned a teacher of United States history.)

omouse 17y ago

If it's an attack done by the Chinese government, then Google's withdrawal from the country would be welcome by them. It would increase the market share of Baidu, the local Chinese-based earch engine. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to generate profits can eschew it and take a moral high ground why can't the government do it? Are the cheap goods from china so necessary that it is not worth antagonizing China ? It's been time to do that for a very long time...cheap goods aren't worth it at all.

ytinas 17y ago
I agree, but are you ready to pay what it really costs to make things?
- Retric 17y ago
  Yes, but I buy few physical goods relative to my income.

boundlessdreamz 17y ago

According to GiagOm "if the Chinese government bans the search giant, then Google could be walking away from about $600 million in 2010 revenues." http://gigaom.com/2010/01/12/how-much-will-it-cost-google-to-exit-china/ http://gigaom.com/2010/01/12/how-much-will-it-cost-google-to...

s3graham 17y ago
David Drummond on CNBC said that the value of the Chinese business was "immaterial either way". I don't think 600M is immaterial for G yet, so something's not right. And given that the gigaom article incorrectly says that google has already stopped censoring, I'm inclined to believe they're randoming making shit up.
vorg 17y ago
"$600 million in 2010 revenues" But what's the profit, i.e. less the costs? And in what currency and which country's banks is that profit (if any)?
neilk 17y ago
It doesn't matter what the current revenues are, or even the profits. The point is to be part of the fastest growing market in the world, and to be an option when many new consumers are choosing online services. If Google is deciding that they don't want in on this, it's not about giving up millions today; it's about forgoing billions from the next decade.

sireat 17y ago

I am proud of the Google, but the skeptic in me says: Google knows that it is not in a leading position in China and has been losing market share there. The fight there is probably not a fair one(but where is it a fair one?). http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-Drops-in-Market-Share-in-China-122465.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/Google-Drops-in-Market-Share-... Thus they can make a strong, positive statement that the rest of the market will applaud, while not really losing that much(although 12% of China is still quite a bit).

joecode 17y ago

In the long run, this is actually a very good and profitable business decision by Google. If the Chinese government is allowed to continue their human rights abuses, it will have major economic ramifications for everyone as China continues to grow in power. "If you dance with the devil, you have to pay the piper."