16 ms·

A new approach to China

• adrianwaj 17y ago
  "In the last two decades, China's economic reform programs and its citizens' entrepreneurial flair have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty." Yeah, through slave-like conditions. Well done.
• steveplace 17y ago
  Why are we assuming that corporate responsibility and the shareholder interest are mutually exclusive?
• deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
• azharcs 17y ago
  I now hope Google stands up to other countries, mainly USA to whom they share their user data as well as log files. When Google does that, I will be a impressed by them, threatening to leave a market in which they don't really exist is not something hard to do, when you have realized that your operating costs are going to be much larger than money you're going to make (even in the long run), it is viable to quit the market. Lot of other companies do this all the time, it is just that they don't make a huge fuss about it or write blogposts.
  • boundlessdreamz 17y ago
    Same question raise and answered http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049298 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049298 Google has stood up to US govt. too
• enomar 17y ago
  We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China. Wow.
  • omouse 17y ago
    They shouldn't have even opened an office in China. What the heck did they expect to happen?
    • JCThoughtscream 17y ago
      They expected to do business, of course. It is, after all, a 1.32bn audience base. Quite glad they're opting to take the ethical route this time, though.
      • code_devil 17y ago
        Well,the decision could also have been made along with the fact that they don't have a large user base. I am guessing "Baidu" is still pretty popular there. I wonder if they would have done the same if they had a 60% penetration in the Chinese market. EDIT: Why am I being downmodded ? I thought we are supposed to have open discussions here. (I did find the actual google mkt share in the TC blog later, but I was presenting an alternative reason along with the fact that their site was attacked)
        • pavs 17y ago
          Even if they have 5% market pulling out of china is huge. They currently have ~17% market share in China. No profit-making company in their right mind would pull out of country with ~17% market share.
          • lallysingh 17y ago
            s/profit-making/profit-centered/
            • shard 17y ago
              It's a public company's fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of it's stockholders, which in most cases is profit-centered (considering that the major holders of Google are investment funds and groups). It looks like after hours trading of GOOG is trending lower.
• maxklein 17y ago
  It's easy to shut down the site when you are losing the search game to local competition. In any case, even though I find freedom of speech to be necessary and encouraged, I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks.
  • twism 17y ago
    But who else would want to garner information from emails of human rights activists in China?
    • imajes 17y ago
      that's incredibly naïve. Plenty of organizations would find that information useful.
      • pyre 17y ago
        That may be true, but the facts lend themselves to the implication that the Chinese government is involved. Though that might not be true, it likely is true that the Chinese government is the the single largest entity with the highest interest in these emails.
  • recampbell 17y ago
    I do not think that Google is right to imply in this blog post that the Chinese government is behind the attacks. Unless they have evidence to support that implication...
    • tjic 17y ago
      Reading between the lines, that's exactly what I saw.
    • alanthonyc 17y ago
      Google simply stated the facts. The implication (or more accurately, the inference) is yours.
• boundlessdreamz 17y ago
  This is incredible. This is the first time, I have seen a LARGE company * Putting its users above profits * Stand up to Chinese Government. Since accounts of human rights activists were targeted, this operation was clearly done at the behest of Chinese Government. I'm disgusted by the levels to which the Chinese Government can stoop. It is time the world stands up to China. If a corporation, whose main aim is to generate profits can eschew it and take a moral high ground why can't the government do it? Are the cheap goods from china so necessary that it is not worth antagonizing China ? EDIT: Additional details from Enterprise blog post http://googleenterprise.blogspot.com/2010/01/keeping-your-data-safe.html http://googleenterprise.blogspot.com/2010/01/keeping-your-da... It was an attack on the technology infrastructure of major corporations in sectors as diverse as finance, technology, media, and chemical This is clearly an act of espionage by the Chinese Government. The bigger questions is whether these are the only companies targeted or the only ones discovered. This is not the first time, the chinese have tried something like this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7970471.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7970471.stm The researchers said hackers were apparently able to take control of computers belonging to several foreign ministries and embassies across the world using malicious software
  • credo 17y ago
    I hope this increases the pressure on other search providers to do the right thing. It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds
    • pavs 17y ago
      > It will be interesting to see how the Chinese govt responds. Chinese Gov will be glad if google leaves - they have nothing to loose. Their credibility as an ethical government will be bruised, not that there was any credibility to begin with.
      • michaelneale 17y ago
        Don't assume that the Chinese Gov. are ignorant of PR dangers, they aren't irrational. It would be complex mixed feelings.
• siculars 17y ago
  Go Google, Go! This is what the world needs more of. Mega Multination Corporations standing up to dictatorships, human rights violators and all around douche bag governments.
• carbocation 17y ago
  Every once in awhile their Don't be evil motto reminds us that it still exists. Reading in between the lines, it seems that they must feel that the Chinese government was involved in the attacks on the user accounts. Otherwise, the first portion of the post re: cyber security has little to do with the latter portion re: dealing with China at all. This is a fairly clever approach to conveying such a heavy message without stating it.
  • siculars 17y ago
    Nobody does data mining better than good 'ole Google. If they went public with this post you can be sure there is more to it than what you're reading.
    • borism 17y ago
      "in order to say 'don't be evil' you must already dwell in that space of evil" -Slavoj Zizek at Google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x0eyNkNpL0#t=1h13m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x0eyNkNpL0#t=1h13m55s
      • houseabsolute 17y ago
        I can't really spend the time to watch that video right now, nor am I in the right context. Could someone summarize it for me? It can't be that what he's saying is that you have to be evil for "don't be evil" to have any meaning, because that would be moronic. But I can't parse any other meaning from this short little quote. Edit: no, that's not what he's saying, but I think I might not have the intellectual capacity to paraphrase what he did say well without thinking about it some more.
        • defen 17y ago
          Honestly, you shouldn't waste too many brain cycles on trying to decode Zizek
          • 17y ago
• tjic 17y ago
  > We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn Kudos to Google! Amazing. You work for a great company, Googlers!
  • zaphar 17y ago
    I know and I couldn't be prouder right now.
• chaosmachine 17y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GhostNet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GhostNet
• jfornear 17y ago
  Google standing up to the Chinese government re: human rights? This is huge.
  • jfornear 17y ago
    The more I think about it... How do we get from security breaches and human rights activists to "we'll shut down unless we're uncensored"?
• andrewljohnson 17y ago
  Call me suspicious, but could this pull-out have anything to do with Google getting beat up by Baidu? Maybe getting beat isn't the reason for pulling out, but it at least makes the decision much easier if you aren't the market leader in the country. Another big company, GE, will shut down businesses where they aren't 1st or 2nd in a market. If Google were dominant in China or making a lot of money, this decision might be a lot tougher.
  • deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  • ErrantX 17y ago
    With the sheer number of internet users in China I suspect even 2nd and 3rd place wouldn't be something to walk away from lightly.
  • pyre 17y ago
    > If Google were dominant in China or making a lot of money, this decision might be a lot tougher. Not necessarily. It would also depend on what they predict their future prospects to be. If they predict that 5-10 years down the line they will be hard-pressed to be able to grow their business there, they could make such a decision (even if they are making a lot of money there right now). But this could also be seen as a hostile environment/market too. You're essentially doing business with a country/government that behind the scenes is trying to attack you and/or your customers.
  • wildwood 17y ago
    Google got whipped by Yahoo JP for quite a while, as I recall, and they stuck with it. They're still getting their asses handed to them in South Korea. This doesn't seem like a decision that's being based on market share. And Google doesn't have a track record for bailing on tough markets. With their cost structure, why would they? (Google doesn't have near the physical plant costs that GE does.)
• daniel-cussen 17y ago
  You are witnessing "Don't be evil." This is amazing.
• acangiano 17y ago
  Major kudos to Google. This is an outstanding outcome. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. How sad that they had to specify this, or a few of their Chinese employees would risk their freedom, or worst, their lives.
  • nfnaaron 17y ago
    They probably risk questioning, regardless. Google execs did what they could, a good thing.
  • romland 17y ago
    What I read between the lines there was: "We have the feeling that this might have been made possible due to an inside job by one or more of our employees in China. However, we don't know who or to what extent and we'd rather not do our dirty laundry in public." Call me cynical. :/
    • houseabsolute 17y ago
      Dunno why you consider that cynical. It's just realistic, and it wouldn't even indicate bad faith on Google's part or anyone else's if that was the reason under the covers.
      • davidmurphy 17y ago
        Rumor is that Google China staff were sent home early today http://twitter.com/joCNN/status/7702905501 http://twitter.com/joCNN/status/7702905501
• jbrun 17y ago
  Very good news, my guess is that the Obama administration may be backing this aggressive move to push China towards more openness without directly going at them. Hopefully this will pan out top changes in China, but having worked there for a year, I would not get my hopes too high.
  • davidmurphy 17y ago
    FWIW, Eric Schmidt was part of a dinner Secretary of State Hilary Clinton hosted just last week with tech leaders. And Clinton did issue a statement today saying she has a speech planned on internet freedoms Jan. 21. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-liebman/perspective-on-digital-di_b_416876.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-liebman/perspective-on-d... http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/01/135105.htm http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2010/01/135105.htm
• zmimon 17y ago
  This is amazingly bold. Not because they are shutting down operations or even stopping the censoring - they could have done that in a hundred ways that would save face and leave the door open for them to come back in at any time - but because they have come right out and said it, cut the BS, they consider the human rights actions of the Chinese government unacceptable. I do wonder how wise this is as a business decision - I would fully expect they will never make a cent in China again, possibly even other countries increasingly dependent on China might get pressure to be more 'hostile' to Google. Congrats to them on such a brave stand!
• Flemlord 17y ago
  Ballmer must be ecstatic.
  • whughes 17y ago
    Come on. Only Western search engines exist? There's more to it than just Google and Bing. Baidu has 60+% of the Chinese search market.
    • jacquesm 17y ago
      Make that 90% as of tomorrow.
• there 17y ago
  nobody seems to be commenting on the attack part of that post. what was the "highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google"? that doesn't sound like just a few end-user gmail accounts being compromised, but something that was much more serious that may have exposed more information than just what these chinese attackers were looking for.
  • jmtulloss 17y ago
    Maybe it takes a highly sophisticated attach just to get that much out of gmail.
    • pyre 17y ago
      > the theft of intellectual property from Google To me, that implies more than just customer information (i.e. private data in a gmail account).
      • Xichekolas 17y ago
        Total speculation, but source code and private keys would be especially useful if you wanted to crack gmail and track down dissidents or generally read people's email.
    • techiferous 17y ago
      I think gmail's attach is pretty basic. Just like any other mail program.
  • jjguy 17y ago
    10 bucks on 0day.
    • DrJokepu 17y ago
      As I commented elsewhere in this post, gossip is that the attack was launched from _within_ the Chinese offices of Google, not just from the Internet.
• riobard 17y ago
  I want to add some background knowledge: - ever since the ending of the Olympics in 2008, Chinese government started a series of large scale "cleaning up" operations all in the name of removing porn from the Internet (while we all know what's the more obvious reason ...). - Many report that as of now Xinjiang Autonomous Region has Internet access to only a few selected official websites after the riot in 2009. - There are rumors about a potential whitelist-based filtering system coming online this year (2010). All websites (no matter where they are physically located or legally registered) must register and report to MII (http://www.miibeian.gov.cn/ http://www.miibeian.gov.cn/) if they offer Chinese content to visitors from mainland China, or they might be banned by the Great Firewall. - Previously, individuals can register .cn domains. They tight up control over .cn registration and some registrars are actually starting to limit the IP address that .cn domains can use to only those within mainland China.
  • jhancock 17y ago
    I'm not defending the China gov for these actions (and many not listed above). When criticizing these actions, it helps to understand the tremendous strains within China. China has changed more in the last 10 years than possibly any other country in the history of the world. These changes are accompanied by massive externalities. There are some serious powder kegs of anger and resentment, Xinjiang being a prime example. I'm not taking you to task for your criticism, but if you were a top government leader in China today, how would you handle these issues? Keep in mind that if your answer is to just make things free and open, there will most likely be a price to pay. You may say the short-term price of social disruption is worth the potential long-term benefits. However, there is no guarantee China would survive such extensive social disorder. Controlling internet traffic is both a citizen control issue and an economic protection plan. I don't know what is in the reams of WTO deals China has made but its possible they never agreed to play free and open with companies outside China for access to their Internet user base. You may not agree with this protectionist approach, but it fits squarely within China's "middle-kingdom" mentality. Again, don't take my words as a defense of any of China's actions. But seriously, what would you do if you were in charge? I certainly wouldn't take the job.
    • 17y ago
• bilbo0s 17y ago
  Wow! Things just went batshit crazy. Trying to tell financial people to calm down. Google wasn't making any money in China anyway. And there is no reason to think right now that this will affect anyone else. I REALLY hope people can regain their bearing before tomorrow's trading session. Thank you Google for announcing this after market close! To have announced it during trading would have been horrid. EDIT: BTW It is testimony to the power of social media that people didn't freak when it hit Google's blog, but when it hit the social media sites. Lesson learned there, by me anyway.
  • houseabsolute 17y ago
    Horrible, but also very exciting!
  • Estragon 17y ago
    Google wasn't making any money in China anyway. Yeah, I was thinking as I read this, "You were going to have to cede the market to Baidu, anyway."
  • andreyf 17y ago
    This might be a great time to buy GOOG - from the little I know about finance people, this has all of the heuristics which will make them overreact.
  • SapphireSun 17y ago
    Heh, I was thinking of selling my Google stock, but I'm glad I kept it for financial and emotional reasons. I just wish they'd look at my job application again ;-)
• djcapelis 17y ago
  There are very few hacking incidents that have led to such public international incidents. I think this is one of the first times I've seen a company publicly pin attacks of nationalistic hackers against a government. This is incredible in a plethora of ways and its impacts on computer security shouldn't be overlooked either.
• storborg 17y ago
  If Google has concrete evidence to suggest that the Chinese government was behind these attacks, why did they stop just short of saying so? And if they don't, why would they even consider implying that?
  • netcan 17y ago
    They are treading thin ice. "We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China" I'm glad they are standing up and taking the high road. Still, no need to be stupid.
    • davidmurphy 17y ago
      One could argue they may have purposely done it this way to protect the Chinese staff from blame for this decision, hoping that the Chinese gov't wouldn't prosecute Google.CN staff because the "fault" for the decision lies back in the USA. (FWIW, some reports say Google.cn already is uncensored, which may be against the law. Thus the staff could be at risk.)
  • pyre 17y ago
    They also say that they are working with the Chinese government to have a completely unfiltered Google.cn in China. Not outright mentioning that the Chinese government was involved could be: 1) a bargaining chip/threat to be in a better negotiating position with the government (i.e. We'll make this evidence public if you don't give us some leeway.) or 2) this could just be a way of making sure they don't sour relations with the Chinese government (in the hopes of having an unfiltered google.cn) before negotiations are concluded/terminated.
• dskhatri 17y ago
  This is a huge development. I was just discussing this with friends by email (we should be using Wave) and realized the move, although incredibly noble, could be even more detrimental economically to Google's growth outside the US. Totalitarian governments (of which there are quite a few) will become weary of Google's power and possibly inhibit the company's growth in those countries. On the other hand, this move will probably placate European countries like France which was recently calling for a tax on Google (and other US companies)[1] [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1041242 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1041242
  • EricBurnett 17y ago
    FYI, here and in your other post above (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049046 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049046), I believe the word you are looking for is 'wary' not 'weary'. But good point nevertheless.
    • dskhatri 17y ago
      Thanks
• jfischer 17y ago
  I'm all for taking the high ground, but I highly doubt this will change the Chinese government's behavior. Google doesn't have such a huge market share in China and leaving will only help local competition (e.g. Baidu) that can be more easily controlled by the government. What leverage does Google have? This is really the classic engagement vs. isolation debate. The only thing that might have any leverage would be to close all their development offices in China. Maybe they are doing this as well?
  • enomar 17y ago
    It does send a pretty clear message though that Google (one of the best known companies in the world) doesn't think it's safe to do business in China.
  • netcan 17y ago
    Depending how this unfolds, I would expect a shallow but broad effect on Chinese business. Imagine that all Google properties get banned: Interoperability with foreign businesses becomes a minor issue. Small business-to-small-business gets a little bit of friction (eg, cannot read your spreadsheet). Some classes of (especially outsourcing) Chinese companies cannot compete. They cannot provide ppc or seo services. Chinese web designers cannot add some Google maps app to a site they are developing for a Canadian client. A Chinese can't reach something on Google code. Annoyances, friction, slight inefficiencies. Being a little annoying (can you use a Zoho spreadsheet instead of Google please) repeatedly can you you client if you are an outsourcing company. Also, Google provides a lot of non critical, but useful stuff. In many cases, Google is best and the competition can be either close or far. Adwords, Analytics, Docs, Search, Mail. Google does a lot of stuff. In some cases, I would be measurably less productive if I had to use some other product. They can't just cut off Google with no impact.
    • jfischer 17y ago
      I'm not convinced. Google is talking about shutting down google.cn, not blocking google.com from the Chinese internet. I've used google services from China without any issues. Also, the local market in China is much more Windows-focused than in the U.S. I think Microsoft leaving the Chinese market would have a huge effect. Overall, the question is not whether it has an impact on Chinese business but whether it would have enough of an impact to influence the decision makers in the government.
• mcantelon 17y ago
  Wikileaks brings up a good point... "Should be noted that Google keeps secret how many user's records are disclosed to US intelligence, others." Nonetheless, good on Google for taking a stand.
  • Husafan 17y ago
    Maybe because those requests are part of a lawful subpoena? I'm sure things would be different if they were busy getting hacked by the CIA and FBI.
    • lhuang 17y ago
      To be fair, there are many sections of FISA that are not so "lawful" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillan...
    • mcantelon 17y ago
      AT&T's domestic wiretaps were (are?) "lawful", but still a threat to civil society. So why isn't Google open about the volume of data they relay to the state?
    • spot 17y ago
      lawful? you mean like this: http://www.eff.org/cases/hepting http://www.eff.org/cases/hepting
• jsm386 17y ago
  The Times' has a source with an interesting addition to the story: Google did not publicly link the Chinese government to the cyber attack, but people with knowledge of Google’s investigation said they had enough evidence to justify its actions. A United States expert on cyber warfare said that 34 companies were targeted, most of them high-technology companies in Silicon Valley. The attacks came from Taiwanese Internet addresses, according to James Mulvenon, an expert on Chinese cyberwarfare capabilities. Mr. Mulvenon said that the stolen documents were sent electronically to a server controlled by Rackspace, based in San Antonio. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/13/world/asia/13beijing.html
• JunkDNA 17y ago
  Just awesome. I'm so glad google did this I can barely describe it. I can't help but think of the old saw about "feeding the alligator hoping he will eat you last". It appears google has realized that the alligator sometimes comes after you anyway. This is a wakeup call to other companies that tolerate oppressive regimes all over the world.
• deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
• anApple 17y ago
  Wouldn't every entrepreneur hope google would pull out of his market? :-)
  • techiferous 17y ago
    Google can be an exit strategy for entrepreneurs.
  • Raphael 17y ago
    Doubt it. Google search is instrumental in driving traffic to one's site. And its other products are integral in so many other areas, from docs to email, and so many other services I won't even try to list.
• DavidSJ 17y ago
  A thought: if several other Western-based web service providers (Yahoo? MSN? etc.) all made a similar move in a short period of time, the effects on Chinese policy could be substantial. Is this an opportunity for a grass roots petition?
• shrike 17y ago
  The last three paragraphs gave me chills. If Google follows thru and exits China I really, really hope it will be the beginning of an exodus of those companies that support the Golden Shield Project. I'm looking at you Cisco - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=jhs&q=%22Great+Wall+of+China%22+Cisco&aq=f&oq=&aqi= http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=f... I am sure we will all be watching closely over the next few weeks, but kudos are due to Google already.
  • est 17y ago
    Cisco has nothing to do with current implementation of GFW system, Golden Shield and GFW are two completely different systems. The wikipedia entry of GFW seems to be maintained by gov agents to create a delusion of a false target. see: http://freemorenews.com/2009/08/30/burn-after-reading-gfw/ http://freemorenews.com/2009/08/30/burn-after-reading-gfw/ It's in Chinese, but it's pretty accurate. This article created shock within the gov, China's intelligence department almost turned the GFW department upside down for TFA
• Frazzydee 17y ago
  Google has an online store: http://www.googlestore.com/ http://www.googlestore.com/ This really is a landmark announcement and really shows that they still take their corporate motto seriously. The announcement may not mean anything until they take concrete action, but they have pretty much committed to doing /something/. Anyways, I'm going to start showing my support now :)
• utx00 17y ago
  go google. that does it, i just put an order for a google phone.
• DrJokepu 17y ago
  "Gossip from within google.cn is Shanghai office used as CN gov attack stage in US source code network." - wikileaks: http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689041346 http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689041346
  • jorgeortiz85 17y ago
    Also: "gossip inside google China is gov hackers found infiltrating google source code repository; gmail attacks an old issue." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7688415363 http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7688415363 "China has been quietly asking for the same access to google logfiles as US intelligence for 2-3 years now." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689072081 http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689072081 "Should be noted that Google keeps secret how many user's records are disclosed to US intelligence, others." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689142127 http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689142127 "correction: the time of the Chinese requests/demands are not exactly known and are possibly in the last 12 months." - @wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689422772 http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/7689422772
  • EricBurnett 17y ago
    It says a lot when Google isn't even willing to store any source code in China. Hard to argue with that decision at this point, though.
  • hga 17y ago
    I've been wondering why Google's response has been so ... ferocious. If the PRC government has been suborning Google's Chinese employees (easy enough for a government that ruthless and powerful) then Google can't really afford to maintain a presence in China ... and they need to let people know on the QT what's happening. If this is true, it's very serious, worse than e.g. the moles France planted in US companies.
• newhouseb 17y ago
  I just talked to a friend of mine in the computer industry, native Chinese, my age (early 20s). I asked him about the Google news and he said when it comes to economics he's quite the idiot, and such things don't really concern him much. It's kind of ironic, since I recall him mentioning that Google was thinking of pulling out of China months ago. He did mention however that other new restrictions on things like registering .cn domains had caused him great inconvenience (he had to migrate all of his stuff to a .com), so that evidences he's not all roses about everything Chinese gov't wise. It appears that within China this is being spun as the surrender of a foreign company failing to understand the Chinese market, and outside China as some sort of stand on Humans Rights. Probably both are true, but I think it's interesting to see the perspectives as reported by both sides.
• ghshephard 17y ago
  Read the following: "Google said that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human right activists, but that the attack also targeted 20 other large companies in the finance, technology, media and chemical sectors." The question I have - is were these companies' infrastructures being run by Google? And, if so, could this reaction be the harbinger of a revelation of an attack on their managed services business?
  • brown9-2 17y ago
    It just sounds as if once they realized they were under attack, they shared some information with other companies in those industries and then these companies discovered they were under the same attack. Or more likely they shared the info with the US government who helped discover that other companies were under the same attack.
• sown 17y ago
  There has to be a real strategic serious reason they're doing this. Something along the lines of self interest. I just can't believe that a 187 billion dollar US company with millions of shareholders would just go out and do what it appears it is doing.
  • s3graham 17y ago
    Avoidance of security breaches maybe? It's been rumoured/suggested that some attack started within google chinese offices at least.
• yumraj 17y ago
  According to CNet at least Adobe was also impacted. Link: http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-10433538-265.html?tag=newsLeadStoriesArea.1 http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-10433538-265.html?tag=news...
• fcu_1 17y ago
  I love that CNN's app on the iPhone immediately sent me an alert to let me know when Brittany Murphy died whereas 3 hours after a real story like this broke I still haven't gotten any sort of notification. Uninstalling CNN's app right after I post this.
  • blhack 17y ago
    It pains me to admit this, but I think that there are considerably more people who care about Brittany Murphy dying than care about this. I suggest that you, instead, just subscribe to some RSS feeds.
    • davidmurphy 17y ago
      I'll be honest. I didn't know who Brittany Murphy was until she went all over the news networks. Still don't really know -- didn't ready any of the articles. Meanwhile, I've been consuming news about Google.CN for the past four hours. Ought to go to bed, but this is so fascinating!
  • gcv 17y ago
    nytimes.com sent out an email alert as soon as the story broke.
• clutchski 17y ago
  Interesting. I wonder how Google would react if the American government did the same thing.
  • cdibona 17y ago
    Obviously not the same kind of thing, but here's what happened when the Bush administration got too grabby... http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/060119-060352 http://blog.searchenginewatch.com/060119-060352 (Disclaimer: I work at google)
• dublinclontarf 17y ago
  Can someone give me a mirror for this article.... I'm in China and blogspot is blocked (among other things).
  • boundlessdreamz 17y ago
    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049617 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049617
    • dublinclontarf 17y ago
      Thank you.
• tdedecko 17y ago
  CNBC interview with David Drummond, chief legal officer at Google, who discusses the Internet giant's reaction to an assault by hackers who sought to penetrate the e-mail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/01/12/business/1247466517265/google-may-close-operations-in-china.html http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/01/12/business/124746651...
• jacquesm 17y ago
  I'm not exactly gushing about this but I'm happy google changed their stance. Let's keep in mind that before they stood up to the Chinese government they first collaborated with them, and apparently it was the hacking (attempt) that caused them to go about face. If someone steals your car and the next day he doesn't that doesn't make him a model citizen yet. Google would be a model citizen if their stance had been like this when they still thought they were going to score big in China. This is in part a statement of principle and in part one that is motivated by PR. Google has gotten some reasonably bad press recently because of Schmidts' ill thought out remarks regarding privacy, this will go a long way to make everybody forget. So, keep your eyes open, let's give them the benefit of the doubt but let's not right away forgive and forget the past until some time has gone by and we can re-evaluate how much change there really is.
• bemmu 17y ago
  Baidu stock +7% after hours.
  • kirse 17y ago
    If people had any idea this was coming down the Google PR pipeline this would have been a huge money-making play... BIDU is up 13% today and BIDU options are set to expire 3 days later... JAN420 calls are up 7000%... Game over, time to retire. And don't even mention "insider trading" because we all know the SEC has its head up its rear when it comes to knowing when it's happening.
• madmanslitany 17y ago
  If these allegations are true, and really, I don't expect anyone to be better than Google at tracking who's doing what on the internet, then this is the right choice. It's refreshing to see a corporation back up its beliefs like this and the authorities in the mainland have seriously crossed the line. But I feel compelled to point out that it's unfortunate that it's come to this. I don't agree at all with posters saying that Google was initially doing the wrong thing by being in business in China at all; as several other posters have already pointed out, Google was at least making sure the censorship was obvious, which, really, was bold already. Moreover, the bigger point; how wrong is it for international corporations to do business in China? Yes, there are human rights abuses. I get annoyed when people seem to just enjoy using the PRC leadership as a moral punching bag without trying to understand the historical lead-up to its creation (and, really, the West helped create the conditions in China that led to its current authoritarianism to begin with). But, what is really going to be gained by corporations outright stonewalling the mainland and its business opportunities? If you really want to help people and be pragmatic, then I think you would have done as Google originally did. The potential economic opportunities created for the millions of very poor Chinese by having international business in China is not something to take lightly if you can manage to at least not worsen the position of human rights activists in China by censoring and not outright handing them over (something which I think Yahoo actually did). And, by working with the PRC, you can at least get yourself into a position where you can affect change without outright confrontation. Again, I do agree that the hacking attempts change the game entirely and is the point at which all international corporations doing business in China need to reconsider things, but just stonewalling China for confrontation's sake is just trying to encourage another Cold War, and we don't want that.
  • roundsquare 17y ago
    Its a fair point, but there is something to be said for looking at what the PRC wants. In particular, they want/need western business. If google can show the Chinese government that their practices will prevent western business, then the confrontation can be useful. Its not to say that a direct confrontation is the right move, but there is a balance point between direct accusation and giving the PRC a face saving way to make a small change. The real question (in my mind) is: is google at the right balance point.
• tumult 17y ago
  pg, are you around to look at the voting patterns in this thread? I'd like to hear if you see any accounts being used to attack the comment score of anyone expressing anti-Chinese sentiment. (I've seen this happen before on sites I've run, even ones on a much smaller scale than HN) I'd also like to applaud Google for this. I hope people who helped influence this decision can see how many people appreciate what they're doing. It's not falling on deaf ears.
  • est 17y ago
    And due to a link popularized to Chinese twitter-sphere, looks like there's a lot of new users from China http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049036 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1049036
• mrtron 17y ago
  Few people take a stand for human rights. Fewer corporations take the stand. Kudos Google.
• wallflower 17y ago
  So what this means is that all searches to Baidu are most likely government monitored. I remember watching a Frontline documentary about China in the 2000s. It profiled one guy who kept on moving to more egregiously luxurious apartments, as his government contracts grew (he ran an advertising agency and as the Frontline series had concluded he had landed a major contract for Beijing 2008 and was moving into the penthouse of an elite residence.)
  • netcan 17y ago
    Where did you read that?
    • wallflower 17y ago
      Nothing concrete. I did not state anything, just a hunch. > The secret to Baidu's success -- and Google's failure -- is largely positioning. First, Baidu has managed to win Beijing's favor, a trump card in this command economy. The government controls the Internet and appreciates loyal partners. Baidu understands that it operates under the good graces of the Chinese Communist Party, and continues to show it. As Robin Li, the company's chief executive, said in an interview with the Guardian, "As a locally operated company we need to obey the Chinese law. If the law determines that certain information is illegal, we need to remove it from our index." http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/09/29/where_google_loses http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/09/29/where_googl... > Privacy and Security. Google is committed to protecting consumer privacy and confidentiality. Prior to the launch of Google.cn, Google conducted intensive reviews of each of our services to assess the implications of offering it directly in China. We are always conscious of the fact that data may be subject to the jurisdiction of the country where it is physically stored. With that in mind, we concluded that, at least initially, only a handful of search engine services would be hosted in China. We will not store data somewhere unless we are confident that we can meet our expectations for the privacy and security of users’ sensitive information. As a practical matter, meeting this user interest means that we have no plans to host Gmail, Blogger, and a range of other such services in China. http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2006/02/testimony-internet-in-china.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2006/02/testimony-internet-in...
• vorg 17y ago
  Could someone post the text of this blog entry here into Hacker News Comments (if doing so isn't a copyright violation)? I live in China, therefore can't read the blog post (though have deduced much of its content from reading these comments!) Before the Olympics, the Firewall would periodically block blogspot, but it was easy to get around it using proxies. However, post-Olympics, in May 2009, all of blogspot was blocked (not just those dealing with Fln G*ng, etc), including through proxies, newsfeeds, everything. Every few weeks, new sites are blocked. It seems the Olympics was a minor P.R. obstacle to the unrestricted censorship they really wanted; once over, the censors have gone into free fall. The blockages seems arbitrary. One can almost understand a line of logic whereby all blogspot blogs are blocked, e.g. "The users are anonymous, their details not verifiable by our government officials..." blah blah. But how can you explain blocking http://www.python.org/download/ http://www.python.org/download/ and subpages, blocked here for the last 3 to 6 months? The other Python website pages are accessible, just not the download page. Where's the logic in that? Those of us living here for a while automatically assume some other competing scripting language rep paid off some friend working at the censor bureau. "Who watches the watchers?" as they say. Once a certain site has been blocked, it never reverts. Some people here are starting to call the internet available within China a "Countrinet".
  • nikils 17y ago
    A new approach to China 1/12/2010 03:00:00 PM Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different. First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities. Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves. Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users' computers. We have already used information gained from this attack to make infrastructure and architectural improvements that enhance security for Google and for our users. In terms of individual users, we would advise people to deploy reputable anti-virus and anti-spyware programs on their computers, to install patches for their operating systems and to update their web browsers. Always be cautious when clicking on links appearing in instant messages and emails, or when asked to share personal information like passwords online. You can read more here about our cyber-security recommendations. People wanting to learn more about these kinds of attacks can read this U.S. government report (PDF), Nart Villeneuve's blog and this presentation on the GhostNet spying incident. We have taken the unusual step of sharing information about these attacks with a broad audience not just because of the security and human rights implications of what we have unearthed, but also because this information goes to the heart of a much bigger global debate about freedom of speech. In the last two decades, China's economic reform programs and its citizens' entrepreneurial flair have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. Indeed, this great nation is at the heart of much economic progress and development in the world today. We launched Google.cn in January 2006 in the belief that the benefits of increased access to information for people in China and a more open Internet outweighed our discomfort in agreeing to censor some results. At the time we made clear that "we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China." These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China. The decision to review our business operations in China has been incredibly hard, and we know that it will have potentially far-reaching consequences. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. We are committed to working responsibly to resolve the very difficult issues raised. Posted by David Drummond, SVP, Corporate Development and Chief Legal Officer
• lefstathiou 17y ago
  As important as this is to the spiritual debate I dont see it resonating that much with the Chinese. Google was a major underdog and lacked guanxi. The propaganda machine is undoubtedly unleashing its army of bloggers to talk about how it's a sorry excuse because baidu was owning them. China will raddle if and when Microsoft makes a similar announcement, but they have way too much at stake to do that.
• deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
• est 17y ago
  The last thing I want from Google is to open source their Google PinYin IME and Google Talk win32 client product.
• xiaoma 17y ago
  For those who are interested and can read it, here's a Chinese analysis of the situation: http://www.kenengba.com/post/2248.html http://www.kenengba.com/post/2248.html
• JulianMorrison 17y ago
  I think Google entering China, agreeing to censorship, was an umbrella that provided ethical shelter to a lot of other companies who were willing to take the same deal. So the biggest impact of them walking away has to be that they take their umbrella with them, and suddenly everyone else is getting wet. They are in effect threatening the Chinese government with a stampede of all companies that care about being seen to be ethical, and a substantial blackening of their name. This is absolutely hitting the Chinese where it hurts.
• nice1 17y ago
  Somewhat must have said this already, but what the heck, this is emotional stuff. The value of Google as a company rests on the trust we invest in it. I, among many I imagine, am much more confident today that they are worthy of it. Well done. "Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid."
  • davidmurphy 17y ago
    I feel inspired to want to go work for Google now....
    • nice1 17y ago
      All you have to do now is figure out a way to inspire them to want you to work for them ...
• jacktang 17y ago
  now baidu.com stopped its censorship ....
  • davidmurphy 17y ago
    A CNN Beijing Bureau Associate Producer tweeted "Craziness on #Baidu. Searched sensitive term+got huge results list, that never happens. 20min later results GONE, error msg back up." http://twitter.com/joCNN/status/7703269253 http://twitter.com/joCNN/status/7703269253
• jacquesm 17y ago
  Since dfranke hacked HN I don't think there has been a score like this for a submisison. If this goes on it will be the all-time high for HN for a long time to come!
• fauigerzigerk 17y ago
  That's brilliant. I guess Eric Schmidt has finally realised that there are legitimate reasons for privacy after all.
• Torn 17y ago
  People are bringing flowers to the Google building: http://imgur.com/5xJmy.jpg http://imgur.com/5xJmy.jpg http://img.gd/Dbn/full http://img.gd/Dbn/full
  • ajju 17y ago
    Others (on reddit) are interpreting this as flowers on Google's gravestone. A CNN reporter from China tweeted this image and translated the text as "Real Man" http://chinadigitaltimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/images10.jpg http://chinadigitaltimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/imag...
    • weezer 17y ago
      It means "Google: a real, [upstanding -- implied], man"
• userrob 17y ago
  In western democracies governments come and go and do not generally have a strong relationship with the population! I believe that this is different in the PRC where most of the population will ultimately put party and country first. Google is not taking on a temporary western style government it is effectively taking on most of the country! - who will no doubt largely side with the government line.
• torrenegra 17y ago
  The US is not too far away from China in terms of human rights violations (see http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,,258330,00.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,,258330,00.h... ) - Will Google pull out from other countries having similar issues? I doubt it. The reasons and consequences behind Google's decision won't be obvious, if ever, for a while.
• test1010 17y ago
  Doesn't the US government through the NSA also access citizens emails ? If yes, should'nt google complain as well?
• poutine 17y ago
  Google probably has been wanting out of China for some time. Like many companies it had felt pressure to be in the 'largest market of the world'. The problem is that it really isn't equipped to compete with the likes of Baidu even if the playing field was level, which it isn't. As a poster upthread noted the Chinese Internet is entertainment dominated and not information/search dominated like in the USA. Just look at Baidu and you'll see videos, music, shopping and celebrity news where Baidu makes much of their revenue. Google doesn't have this content and more importantly Google is bound by western business ethics that prohibit the violation of copyright that the Chinese content companies engage in. Secondly, the deck is stacked. There are no real opportunities to sell to the wider Chinese Internet audience for foreign companies. The Chinese government considers information distribution and the Internet key to its rather tenuous hold on 1.5 billion people. It will not let any foreign company participate in a significant way in this area. Period. On top of this is a system of corruption that foreign companies can't possible engage in. Google indeed realizes this, that even if they could compete the rule of law doesn't protect them and their business will be given to their competitors. One needs only look at the Youtube experience in China and the rise of Tudou as a result. Thirdly, even if Google was able to compete and the rule of law applied the market opportunity really isn't that big. Of course you may sputter about this seemingly absurd statement given your week in China, however the facts don't add up. Baidu is projecting about some $800M of revenue in 2010, assuming you trust that figure (you shouldn't trust any number coming out of China). It seems around half of Baidu's revenue is from search where Google could participate. Google has 17% of the Chinese search market in the latest figures I could see (significantly down, they're losing due to the first two points I've made above). Doing the math this equates to some potential $73M in revenue for 2010. Probably equivalent to what they get from Northern Ireland. There is no upside for Google in China. Adding to that depressing bottom line is the fact of the continuous attacks on the infrastructure, the probable infiltration of Google by Chinese spies (see Wikileaks for more), the demands by the Chinese government for access to Google's logs and the beating that Google's reputation is taking in its important markets it's pretty obvious that the Google exec is fed up. Leave China to the Chinese and return when there's rule of law is their likely strategy. My background is as an Internet entrepreneur that worked on a startup in Beijing for the past couple of years, having recently returned to Canada after falling prey to many of these issues, though at a much smaller scale than Google of course.
• rms 17y ago
  First 1000 point story?
  • jmatt 17y ago
    Ya looks like it http://news.ycombinator.com/best http://news.ycombinator.com/best
• EricBurnett 17y ago
  It is interesting to look at the monetary values of Google and Baidu in the two days since this was announced. It seems that after an initial ~2% dip, Google has returned to its pre-announcement value, while the value of Baidu has risen almost 20%. While one would expect the change in Baidu to be comparatively higher due to the relative difference in market caps (187B vs 16B), it still seems that on the stock market, this is currently being viewed as a net win for everyone. Interesting. http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chdet=1263500400000&chddm=1065&chls=IntervalBasedLine&cmpto=NASDAQ:BIDU&cmptdms=0&q=NASDAQ:GOOG&ntsp=0 http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&...
• morphir 17y ago
  Don't be evil, right? ;) Instead of being the bully, pick on the bully, as that will bring google even more of the 'good guy' points that Ballmer so desperately needs. If you think the Chinese gov. will give after for this kind of pressure, then I would say you are naive.