5 ms·

> In many cases, things are popular because they are better/easier for a given audience. Which is the horse and which is the cart? Slack is easy because it go

by mempko 11y ago

> In many cases, things are popular because they are better/easier for a given audience. Which is the horse and which is the cart? Slack is easy because it got resources to be easy. Those same resource could have invested time to make IRC just as easy. There is no inherent reason why IRC cannot be just as simple. The reason slack is popular is because it got pushed hard and lots of money went into making it easy and popular. There is nothing inherent about IRC that would have prevented it to be just as easy as slack if the same resources were put for that work.

enraged_camel 11y ago
This is like saying Apple products are popular because Apple has a great marketing team, as opposed to because said products are genuinely easier to use (they "just work") than their alternatives.
- petewailes 11y ago
  Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...
- njharman 11y ago
  But that is why Apple is so popular. They are a marketing monster! They sell a "lifestyle" and they do it extremely well. They tell you to "Think Different" (as long as it means buying an apple product). They tell you one button is easy and the best. They tell people what to think and (some) people think that.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    Yet they spend less on marketing then most major tech companies. One could just argue they spend their marketing budget well, but you have to wonder.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      Less as a percentage of gross income, or less in total dollars?
      - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
        Both. Apple is infamous for its anemic marketing budgets; e.g. http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/04/apples-advertising-budget-dwarfed-by-microsoft-and-samsung/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/04/apples-advertising-budget...
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      They spend just maintenance level. Tech press and media does the marketing for them.
- mempko 11y ago
  Apple products got good because of large amount of investment, not because they were popular. If IRC tech got the investment slack has now, it would only get better.
- Avshalom 11y ago
  It worked for Nike and De Beers. The entire sports drink industry. The supplement industry.
- nodamage 11y ago
  Sadly, a lot of people (generally die-hard nerd types) genuinely believe that marketing was the sole reason for the iPhone's meteoric rise in 2007. They don't place any importance on user experience and therefore can't tell the difference between the iPhone and the early-gen smartphone predecessors (Palm/Nokia/etc). These are the same people that are now confused as to why Slack has risen in popularity despite the existence of IRC, which (in their eyes) is technically superior.
  - pyre 11y ago
    To be fair, (as a Slack user) I'm not sure off-hand what Slack has that couldn't have been done on top of IRC. Almost everything could have been done with an IRC Server + Backend Services + Fancy Client model.
    - riking 11y ago
      Problem: "Backend services" - how many of the Slack integrations don't have public APIs and Slack was only able to do it by being a single company? Good luck convincing people to set up the API keys for all of those services.
      - pyre 11y ago
        Why can't Slack run irc servers on their own equipment? The "integrations" would just be IRC bots running on private Slack servers, no?
- ris 11y ago
  > (they "just work") Please don't say that Apple products "just work". We've got an office full of them.
  - shaan7 11y ago
    and I need to "put a USB keybord, take it out again" when suddenly my Mac keyboard and trackpad stop responding xD I'd rather have "easier to debug when it doesn't work" than "just works, most of the times"
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Yes, it's pretty much self-evident truth. "Genuinely easier to use", even if it was clear-cut thing, doesn't explain the levels of popularity Apple products have. Lifestyle branding does. It reminds me of Raspberry Pi. There are lots of more powerful boards that you can buy cheaper, but people still mostly buy RPi because it is the brand.
  - muzmath 11y ago
    Buying 'the brand' can also lead to much more documentation which can make the 10% change in price worth while.
KirinDave 11y ago
It seems very unfair to the thousands of people who have donated time, money, and services to IRC over its life span to dismiss it as not having gotten value.
- mempko 11y ago
  You misunderstood. I am saying IRC would be as easy as slack if the slack team spent the time working on IRC. Their investors would never let them even if they wanted to.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  It is not an obscure fact that investing shitton of money in marketing will yield better adoption than investing the same money in the product. People "who have donated time, money, and services to IRC over its life span" generally focused on the technical side.

by mempko 11y ago

enraged_camel 11y ago

This is like saying Apple products are popular because Apple has a great marketing team, as opposed to because said products are genuinely easier to use (they "just work") than their alternatives.

petewailes 11y ago
Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...
njharman 11y ago
But that is why Apple is so popular. They are a marketing monster! They sell a "lifestyle" and they do it extremely well. They tell you to "Think Different" (as long as it means buying an apple product). They tell you one button is easy and the best. They tell people what to think and (some) people think that.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Yet they spend less on marketing then most major tech companies. One could just argue they spend their marketing budget well, but you have to wonder.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    Less as a percentage of gross income, or less in total dollars?
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      Both. Apple is infamous for its anemic marketing budgets; e.g. http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/04/apples-advertising-budget-dwarfed-by-microsoft-and-samsung/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/04/apples-advertising-budget...
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    They spend just maintenance level. Tech press and media does the marketing for them.
mempko 11y ago
Apple products got good because of large amount of investment, not because they were popular. If IRC tech got the investment slack has now, it would only get better.
Avshalom 11y ago
It worked for Nike and De Beers. The entire sports drink industry. The supplement industry.
nodamage 11y ago
Sadly, a lot of people (generally die-hard nerd types) genuinely believe that marketing was the sole reason for the iPhone's meteoric rise in 2007. They don't place any importance on user experience and therefore can't tell the difference between the iPhone and the early-gen smartphone predecessors (Palm/Nokia/etc). These are the same people that are now confused as to why Slack has risen in popularity despite the existence of IRC, which (in their eyes) is technically superior.
- pyre 11y ago
  To be fair, (as a Slack user) I'm not sure off-hand what Slack has that couldn't have been done on top of IRC. Almost everything could have been done with an IRC Server + Backend Services + Fancy Client model.
  - riking 11y ago
    Problem: "Backend services" - how many of the Slack integrations don't have public APIs and Slack was only able to do it by being a single company? Good luck convincing people to set up the API keys for all of those services.
    - pyre 11y ago
      Why can't Slack run irc servers on their own equipment? The "integrations" would just be IRC bots running on private Slack servers, no?
ris 11y ago
> (they "just work") Please don't say that Apple products "just work". We've got an office full of them.
- shaan7 11y ago
  and I need to "put a USB keybord, take it out again" when suddenly my Mac keyboard and trackpad stop responding xD I'd rather have "easier to debug when it doesn't work" than "just works, most of the times"
TeMPOraL 11y ago
Yes, it's pretty much self-evident truth. "Genuinely easier to use", even if it was clear-cut thing, doesn't explain the levels of popularity Apple products have. Lifestyle branding does. It reminds me of Raspberry Pi. There are lots of more powerful boards that you can buy cheaper, but people still mostly buy RPi because it is the brand.
- muzmath 11y ago
  Buying 'the brand' can also lead to much more documentation which can make the 10% change in price worth while.

KirinDave 11y ago

It seems very unfair to the thousands of people who have donated time, money, and services to IRC over its life span to dismiss it as not having gotten value.

mempko 11y ago
You misunderstood. I am saying IRC would be as easy as slack if the slack team spent the time working on IRC. Their investors would never let them even if they wanted to.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
It is not an obscure fact that investing shitton of money in marketing will yield better adoption than investing the same money in the product. People "who have donated time, money, and services to IRC over its life span" generally focused on the technical side.