6 ms·

Stuffy offices can halve cognitive scores

105 points by edoloughlin 11y ago

cdent 11y ago
duh?
- ajkjk 11y ago
  How is this obvious?
  - bjwbell 11y ago
    A significant portion of our physiology is devoted just to breathing. When you've had sinus or lung problems it's very obvious or lived in polluted city e.g. New Delhi. Air is really really important. It took me close to a year to recover from minor sinus issues.
derefr 11y ago
An interesting factoid: I used to be fine with stuffy environments. Then I started taking a stimulant medication for ADHD. Now I get headaches whenever I'm in a room with no air circulation (cars with the windows and vents shut are especially bad.) It seems turning my brain on fully requires more oxygen! It's surprising, though—almost nobody I've ever asked to open a window or somesuch can tell, even when it's pointed out to them, how stuffy the room they're in is. (I don't even know if I myself used to be able to tell; it's a hard thing to remember.) Air quality might be a thing like odor, where you can become inured after spending hours in a room but then it's obvious if you spend some time outdoors and then come back. And yet, bad air seems to "hit me" when I enter a room, in a way it doesn't to most. Some people, interestingly, get very defensive about the (bad) air quality of a room—even if the weather is perfect outside, and even if they have no allergies or anything similar, they just hate the idea of having a window open. (But, even more interestingly, this seems to be a habitual tic, rather than a physiological desire. One of my friends—who previously kept a horribly stuffy room, and would always ask that I close my own windows because of how "drafty" my apartment is—now keeps his own windows permanently open, after spending just a few weeks at my place.)
- escherplex 11y ago
  If by 'stimulant medication for ADHD' you mean one of the nootropics like Piracetam then you probably know these supplements crank up metabolic oxygen utilization through the roof. And, common knowledge, oxygen deficits easily trigger migraines. Plus as a byproduct of normal metabolism you pipe out a metric ton of CO2 per annum (according to James Lovelock material) so constantly replenishing the room's O2 level is probably a good idea. Wouldn't want that average 20 pt IQ boost acquired over three weeks to go to waste would we? :-)
  - uhhyeahdude 11y ago
    I would wager a fair amount that most people diagnosed with ADHD are referring to schedule II substances when they mention stimulant medication. I didn't know that the racetams (or, per your comment, Piracetam at least) have a major effect on oxygen utilization. Thank you for reminding me to look into the world of nootropics again. Straight up stimulants are so taxing. I propose a HAB model as a next step in cubicle drone-tech. Individual airlocks, variable temp, humidity, noise, airflow... And no disco.
    - copperx 11y ago
      > Straight up stimulants are so taxing. This is so true. You become so productive, but at the same time you feel that your body is being overdriven.
      - onedev 11y ago
        Yeah for me it was not worth it at all. I was prescribed in High School through College but I stopped taking them in College because I turned into a irritable zombie. No amount of productivity boost is worth the emotional and physical damage that stuff does to you. Also Exercise and Diet helped far more in the long run.
    - escherplex 11y ago
      As my brother the psychiatrist pointed out the conventional stimulants prescribed for ADHD treatment can have wicked side effects and aren't necessarily effective. In moderate cases some in the field are trying nootropics plus cognitive stimulation therapy (of course that only works if natively there is sufficient functional cognitive hardware to stimulate and the patient wants to focus). Interesting footnote: the brother pointed out that Stephen Hawking is taking some similar cognitive enhancement concoction which includes a synthetic capillary growth stimulating chemical which goes by the name of vinpocetine. If a moderate ADHD patient, the combination of a nootropic (+ choline) and vinpocetine may be something worth testing. For reference, a quick google of oxigenation and nootropics scares up: http://nootriment.com/piracetam/ http://nootriment.com/piracetam/
trhway 11y ago
also weak AC ("energy efficient") in a hot climate like CA, bad lighting like these latest fad transparent "blinds" which let direct sunlight (of midday CA Sun) hit your screen or eyes, people packed together into a claustrophobic stall ("team work area") in an open floor office plan, open ceiling ventilation duct work (supposedly seeing those ducts is good for your creativity) which radiates that low-frequency pumping/humming noise that no earphones can protect from ... yea, there are a lot of ways to turn one into a corporate drone who doesn't need no cognitive score.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I have a perfect defense against getting zombified - shit like this tends to shoot my anxiety levels sky-high, which lowers my productivity down to zero, which means I'll kill myself or die of heart attack long before I become a drone...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ggreer 11y ago
I was curious how indoor CO2 levels change from people breathing, so I did a quick calculation. A small room is 4m x 4m x 2.5m. That would contain 40m^3 of air or 40000 liters, 8000 of which is oxygen. From what I can gather, a normal person working will use 30 liters of oxygen per hour.[1] If the room contained one person and was completely sealed for 8 hours, it would end with 7760L of oxygen, 192L of CO2, and some water vapor. Around 0.5% of the atmosphere in the room would be CO2. While at the occupational limit, that's still enough to cause drowsiness and mental fatigue.[2] It's surprising how little CO2 is required to disrupt cognition. Still, even getting to those levels would take an extremely stuffy office. I'm not convinced this is a issue in most workplaces. 1. http://www.molecularproducts.com/pdf/technical-library/A%20Guide%20to%20Breathing%20Rates%20in%20Confined%20Environments%20Technical%20Article.pdf http://www.molecularproducts.com/pdf/technical-library/A%20G... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#Toxicity
- roel_v 11y ago
  I'm not sure if we're arguing the same point and if we agree or not, but e.g. http://piers.org/piersonline/download.php?file=MDkwMjIwMTQ0NjQwfFZvbDVObzdQYWdlNjM3dG82NDAucGRm http://piers.org/piersonline/download.php?file=MDkwMjIwMTQ0N... ('Ventilation Efficiency and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Concentration', Progress in Electromagnetics Research Symposium vol 5 no 7, 2009) seems to suggest that even in workplaces with air conditioning (albeit old airco and densely populated rooms), CO2 concentrations can reach higher-than-recommended levels in everyday usage. Any modern residential building requires mechanical ventilation to keep CO2 levels in check. CO2 levels, in real-world usage, also don't rise linearly - opening the windows for 30 minutes in the morning is not ventilation. IIRC (although I don't have a reference at hand) rooms reach 70% of their pre-window-opening levels within less than an hour of closing them. (maybe, although again I don't recall details, because of CO2 in other rooms, or maybe it gets 'cached' in materials (sound unlikely though... guess I'm giving away my lack of chemistry knowledge here), or other reasons?) Point being - in building design/architecture it's assumed knowledge that CO2 does rise to higher-than-recommended levels in modern (i.e., low air leakage) buildings without mechanical ventilation.
- andor 11y ago
br_smartass 11y ago
Weird, recently Ive changed jobs from a place with plenty of space to each individual worker and windows with the view to a commercial street(which remained open), natural light, etc, to standard cubicle corp with at least a hundred people on the same place and I can't stop thinking there's something wrong with this type of environment. Indeed I feel dumber and anesthetized, the lack of natural light, outside stimulae, seeing the day pass, I suspect makes time drag. Past experiences in this kind of environment also gave me the same feeling.
- meowface 11y ago
  I dislike stuffy rooms, but I personally hate natural light and a view of the street or even outdoors at all. The room I work in at my job has no windows at all (either to the outside or to other parts of the building), and it's fantastic for me.
bkjelden 11y ago
Lately I've been becoming more mindful of how much my mental state and cognitive ability can vary depending on my mood, surroundings, etc. I work in an individual, windowless office that can get quite warm. One thing I've learned lately is when I start to feel overwhelmed a 10 minute walk around my company's campus does wonders. Fresh air, getting the blood circulating, and looking at something other than a computer screen. It's amazing what an impact the simple things can have.
XorNot 11y ago
This is kind of fascinating. I wonder if I could pack a mask and oxygen cylinder for a day and see any improvement?
Asbostos 11y ago
It's meaningless to say cognitive scores "halve" or "double". That depends entirely on how the test results are presented, not the person or even the test. What's half a human intellect? Is that being as smart as a dog? As smart as a drowsy person? Certainly not the difference between IQ 100 and IQ 50 because IQ is scaled so as to be normally distributed with 50 being almost impossible to achieve. Even the linked paper (great that it's linked and free access!) doesn't appear to explain what the scores mean in its "Cognitive Function Assessment" section but identifies the test as using "Strategic Management Simulation" software. So perhaps the conclusion should be "stuffy offices reduce cognitive function by an unknown amount".
- bbcbasic 11y ago
  Very good point. Intellect is not a ratio scale.
TeMPOraL 11y ago
I know for sure, after years of struggling in several companies, that I just can't work in a room with no fresh air. Just can't. I can be well rested, I can drink 10 coffees, and I still will be insanely tired and sleeping on the keyboard while everyone else next to me is working full power. The other thing that gets me is temperature. Most of my cow-orkers feel cold at the level that is comfortable to me, and conversely they feel a-ok at the level I can't focus anymore. Which leads to conflicts, because I simply can't tolerate their optimal levels and they can't understand that you can dress up when it's too cold for you, but you can't really dress down from t-shirt and pants when it's too hot. EDIT: I have those problems while not on any medication. I've been having them since high school or earlier (I don't remember), they're a serious problem at work (thank god that my current employeer has AC in the offices and people don't mind me cooling down the room). Few times I actually used cognitive enhancers to force myself to stay awake, with little effect.
- purplelobster 11y ago
  I'm one of those who are sensitive to cold, and no, we can't just dress up. It's about the extremities, not the rest of the body, and I can't code with gloves on. I absolutely cannot work if I feel cold, just as you can't an a room with bad air, but don't think your situation takes precedence.
  - trhway 11y ago
    >we can't just dress up. It's about the extremities, not the rest of the body you just don't dress up enough. Once the rest of your body is hot enough, the blood vessels in extremities will open wider to ventilate that extra heat off.
- noir_lord 11y ago
  I'm the same, what's comfortable for me is freezing for everyone else (I've coded in my boxers in winter with the windows open). Right now I'm sat at the office with all 3 windows wide open and a fan blowing to get some circulation, I loathe stuffy buildings they make me feel physically ill after an hour or two.
bbcbasic 11y ago
I have recently changed job from a large stuffy office to a small office with sliding doors that let in fresh air (Sydney weather = fairly comfortable a lot of the time!). Although I can't say I am performing better based on that, I can say I feel more humane with the combination of fresh air and natural light that the new office is offering, and I would hesitate to take a job without those factors.

105 points by edoloughlin 11y ago

cdent 11y ago

duh?

ajkjk 11y ago
How is this obvious?
- bjwbell 11y ago
  A significant portion of our physiology is devoted just to breathing. When you've had sinus or lung problems it's very obvious or lived in polluted city e.g. New Delhi. Air is really really important. It took me close to a year to recover from minor sinus issues.

derefr 11y ago

An interesting factoid: I used to be fine with stuffy environments. Then I started taking a stimulant medication for ADHD. Now I get headaches whenever I'm in a room with no air circulation (cars with the windows and vents shut are especially bad.) It seems turning my brain on fully requires more oxygen! It's surprising, though—almost nobody I've ever asked to open a window or somesuch can tell, even when it's pointed out to them, how stuffy the room they're in is. (I don't even know if I myself used to be able to tell; it's a hard thing to remember.) Air quality might be a thing like odor, where you can become inured after spending hours in a room but then it's obvious if you spend some time outdoors and then come back. And yet, bad air seems to "hit me" when I enter a room, in a way it doesn't to most. Some people, interestingly, get very defensive about the (bad) air quality of a room—even if the weather is perfect outside, and even if they have no allergies or anything similar, they just hate the idea of having a window open. (But, even more interestingly, this seems to be a habitual tic, rather than a physiological desire. One of my friends—who previously kept a horribly stuffy room, and would always ask that I close my own windows because of how "drafty" my apartment is—now keeps his own windows permanently open, after spending just a few weeks at my place.)

escherplex 11y ago
If by 'stimulant medication for ADHD' you mean one of the nootropics like Piracetam then you probably know these supplements crank up metabolic oxygen utilization through the roof. And, common knowledge, oxygen deficits easily trigger migraines. Plus as a byproduct of normal metabolism you pipe out a metric ton of CO2 per annum (according to James Lovelock material) so constantly replenishing the room's O2 level is probably a good idea. Wouldn't want that average 20 pt IQ boost acquired over three weeks to go to waste would we? :-)
- uhhyeahdude 11y ago
  I would wager a fair amount that most people diagnosed with ADHD are referring to schedule II substances when they mention stimulant medication. I didn't know that the racetams (or, per your comment, Piracetam at least) have a major effect on oxygen utilization. Thank you for reminding me to look into the world of nootropics again. Straight up stimulants are so taxing. I propose a HAB model as a next step in cubicle drone-tech. Individual airlocks, variable temp, humidity, noise, airflow... And no disco.
  - copperx 11y ago
    > Straight up stimulants are so taxing. This is so true. You become so productive, but at the same time you feel that your body is being overdriven.
    - onedev 11y ago
      Yeah for me it was not worth it at all. I was prescribed in High School through College but I stopped taking them in College because I turned into a irritable zombie. No amount of productivity boost is worth the emotional and physical damage that stuff does to you. Also Exercise and Diet helped far more in the long run.
  - escherplex 11y ago
    As my brother the psychiatrist pointed out the conventional stimulants prescribed for ADHD treatment can have wicked side effects and aren't necessarily effective. In moderate cases some in the field are trying nootropics plus cognitive stimulation therapy (of course that only works if natively there is sufficient functional cognitive hardware to stimulate and the patient wants to focus). Interesting footnote: the brother pointed out that Stephen Hawking is taking some similar cognitive enhancement concoction which includes a synthetic capillary growth stimulating chemical which goes by the name of vinpocetine. If a moderate ADHD patient, the combination of a nootropic (+ choline) and vinpocetine may be something worth testing. For reference, a quick google of oxigenation and nootropics scares up: http://nootriment.com/piracetam/ http://nootriment.com/piracetam/

trhway 11y ago

also weak AC ("energy efficient") in a hot climate like CA, bad lighting like these latest fad transparent "blinds" which let direct sunlight (of midday CA Sun) hit your screen or eyes, people packed together into a claustrophobic stall ("team work area") in an open floor office plan, open ceiling ventilation duct work (supposedly seeing those ducts is good for your creativity) which radiates that low-frequency pumping/humming noise that no earphones can protect from ... yea, there are a lot of ways to turn one into a corporate drone who doesn't need no cognitive score.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
I have a perfect defense against getting zombified - shit like this tends to shoot my anxiety levels sky-high, which lowers my productivity down to zero, which means I'll kill myself or die of heart attack long before I become a drone...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ggreer 11y ago

I was curious how indoor CO2 levels change from people breathing, so I did a quick calculation. A small room is 4m x 4m x 2.5m. That would contain 40m^3 of air or 40000 liters, 8000 of which is oxygen. From what I can gather, a normal person working will use 30 liters of oxygen per hour.[1] If the room contained one person and was completely sealed for 8 hours, it would end with 7760L of oxygen, 192L of CO2, and some water vapor. Around 0.5% of the atmosphere in the room would be CO2. While at the occupational limit, that's still enough to cause drowsiness and mental fatigue.[2] It's surprising how little CO2 is required to disrupt cognition. Still, even getting to those levels would take an extremely stuffy office. I'm not convinced this is a issue in most workplaces. 1. http://www.molecularproducts.com/pdf/technical-library/A%20Guide%20to%20Breathing%20Rates%20in%20Confined%20Environments%20Technical%20Article.pdf http://www.molecularproducts.com/pdf/technical-library/A%20G... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide#Toxicity

roel_v 11y ago
I'm not sure if we're arguing the same point and if we agree or not, but e.g. http://piers.org/piersonline/download.php?file=MDkwMjIwMTQ0NjQwfFZvbDVObzdQYWdlNjM3dG82NDAucGRm http://piers.org/piersonline/download.php?file=MDkwMjIwMTQ0N... ('Ventilation Efficiency and Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Concentration', Progress in Electromagnetics Research Symposium vol 5 no 7, 2009) seems to suggest that even in workplaces with air conditioning (albeit old airco and densely populated rooms), CO2 concentrations can reach higher-than-recommended levels in everyday usage. Any modern residential building requires mechanical ventilation to keep CO2 levels in check. CO2 levels, in real-world usage, also don't rise linearly - opening the windows for 30 minutes in the morning is not ventilation. IIRC (although I don't have a reference at hand) rooms reach 70% of their pre-window-opening levels within less than an hour of closing them. (maybe, although again I don't recall details, because of CO2 in other rooms, or maybe it gets 'cached' in materials (sound unlikely though... guess I'm giving away my lack of chemistry knowledge here), or other reasons?) Point being - in building design/architecture it's assumed knowledge that CO2 does rise to higher-than-recommended levels in modern (i.e., low air leakage) buildings without mechanical ventilation.
andor 11y ago

br_smartass 11y ago

Weird, recently Ive changed jobs from a place with plenty of space to each individual worker and windows with the view to a commercial street(which remained open), natural light, etc, to standard cubicle corp with at least a hundred people on the same place and I can't stop thinking there's something wrong with this type of environment. Indeed I feel dumber and anesthetized, the lack of natural light, outside stimulae, seeing the day pass, I suspect makes time drag. Past experiences in this kind of environment also gave me the same feeling.

meowface 11y ago
I dislike stuffy rooms, but I personally hate natural light and a view of the street or even outdoors at all. The room I work in at my job has no windows at all (either to the outside or to other parts of the building), and it's fantastic for me.

bkjelden 11y ago

Lately I've been becoming more mindful of how much my mental state and cognitive ability can vary depending on my mood, surroundings, etc. I work in an individual, windowless office that can get quite warm. One thing I've learned lately is when I start to feel overwhelmed a 10 minute walk around my company's campus does wonders. Fresh air, getting the blood circulating, and looking at something other than a computer screen. It's amazing what an impact the simple things can have.

XorNot 11y ago

This is kind of fascinating. I wonder if I could pack a mask and oxygen cylinder for a day and see any improvement?

Asbostos 11y ago

It's meaningless to say cognitive scores "halve" or "double". That depends entirely on how the test results are presented, not the person or even the test. What's half a human intellect? Is that being as smart as a dog? As smart as a drowsy person? Certainly not the difference between IQ 100 and IQ 50 because IQ is scaled so as to be normally distributed with 50 being almost impossible to achieve. Even the linked paper (great that it's linked and free access!) doesn't appear to explain what the scores mean in its "Cognitive Function Assessment" section but identifies the test as using "Strategic Management Simulation" software. So perhaps the conclusion should be "stuffy offices reduce cognitive function by an unknown amount".

bbcbasic 11y ago
Very good point. Intellect is not a ratio scale.

TeMPOraL 11y ago

I know for sure, after years of struggling in several companies, that I just can't work in a room with no fresh air. Just can't. I can be well rested, I can drink 10 coffees, and I still will be insanely tired and sleeping on the keyboard while everyone else next to me is working full power. The other thing that gets me is temperature. Most of my cow-orkers feel cold at the level that is comfortable to me, and conversely they feel a-ok at the level I can't focus anymore. Which leads to conflicts, because I simply can't tolerate their optimal levels and they can't understand that you can dress up when it's too cold for you, but you can't really dress down from t-shirt and pants when it's too hot. EDIT: I have those problems while not on any medication. I've been having them since high school or earlier (I don't remember), they're a serious problem at work (thank god that my current employeer has AC in the offices and people don't mind me cooling down the room). Few times I actually used cognitive enhancers to force myself to stay awake, with little effect.

purplelobster 11y ago
I'm one of those who are sensitive to cold, and no, we can't just dress up. It's about the extremities, not the rest of the body, and I can't code with gloves on. I absolutely cannot work if I feel cold, just as you can't an a room with bad air, but don't think your situation takes precedence.
- trhway 11y ago
  >we can't just dress up. It's about the extremities, not the rest of the body you just don't dress up enough. Once the rest of your body is hot enough, the blood vessels in extremities will open wider to ventilate that extra heat off.
noir_lord 11y ago
I'm the same, what's comfortable for me is freezing for everyone else (I've coded in my boxers in winter with the windows open). Right now I'm sat at the office with all 3 windows wide open and a fan blowing to get some circulation, I loathe stuffy buildings they make me feel physically ill after an hour or two.

bbcbasic 11y ago

I have recently changed job from a large stuffy office to a small office with sliding doors that let in fresh air (Sydney weather = fairly comfortable a lot of the time!). Although I can't say I am performing better based on that, I can say I feel more humane with the combination of fresh air and natural light that the new office is offering, and I would hesitate to take a job without those factors.