4 ms·

anecdotal, but here's my viewpoint as a surfer. yes, wavestorms sell like crazy, and are the #1 board i recommend to beginners. even ordering one at $180 w/ shi

by pbrb 11y ago

anecdotal, but here's my viewpoint as a surfer. yes, wavestorms sell like crazy, and are the #1 board i recommend to beginners. even ordering one at $180 w/ shipping can be cheaper than buying another decent used beginner board. so yeah, in that segment of the market, wavestorm is killing it. once you're beyond the beginner stage, outside of small wave or 'fun' sessions, a wavestorm is the last thing you're going to want to surf. a 'hard' surfboard (fiberglass w/ epoxy or poly resin) is pretty much mandatory. the lowest cost 'hard' surfboards are 'pop-outs', made in overseas factories (think ~$300 for a shortboard). these are generally frowned upon by surfers. what surfers really want, and usually buy multiples of, are hand shaped 'hard' boards from local shapers or a couple bigger name brands that still mass produce surfboards, but at a higher price and quality point than the overseas pop-outs ($400-$1000+ depending on size, shaper, color, etc). wave storm is killing it, and definitely disrupted the soft top beginner market. selling through costco with their return policy was probably a very large part of their success too. though, there definitely still is a very large market for performance surfboards in the ~$500 and up range.

petra 11y ago
What's wrong with the overseas made boards?
- mr_luc 11y ago
  Surfer here, spent 7 years in remote coastal south america surfing fairly regularly. It's not that they're made overseas -- it's that the basic method of manufacture he mentioned, "pop-out", in the industry implies using a plastic shell and then pumping foam into it, and a few other similar methods of manufacture. For shortboards, it's pretty terrible. The boards are very heavy for a surfboard, with poor rigidity and flex, and in fact they don't even attempt to target the "real shortboard" market, where extreme light weight, stiffness and a very delicately balanced flex work together to form something that lets you nimbly glide along a decent-sized wave on a board slightly shorter than you are. Basically, the best form of manufacture for surfboards is a core of either high-quality rigid foam (not the heavy, flexible foam used in wavestorm/some pop-outs) or air, covered in substances like fiberglass and/or carbon-fiber fabric and minimal amounts of epoxies (sometimes using the same vacuum techniques as other carbon-fiber manufacturing to minimize weight). I said 'foam or air' because for a while people have been predicting that we'd move to hollow carbon-fiber boards, and there are/have been some of those boards, but they have their drawbacks and are often expensive. Can performance surfboards be disrupted? It's already happened, to a certain extent. Channel Islands and other surfboard brands use automated milling of the foam blanks, and other automated processes as well. Too, any overseas contenders have to worry about shipping. Surfboards are huge -- you could fit 20 boxed iphones in the footprint of a single boxed shortboard. At the price points mentioned ($300-$500), overseas shipping would probably eat into your margin. Shipping is even an issue for domestic producers; often shipping a board halfway across the country can cost $50-$100. Which is a nice bit of extra margin for a local shaper and his customers. When will good surfboards get cheap? Probably when great carbon-fiber bikes get cheap, ie, when carbon-fiber manufacture is so well mastered by man that designs in any shape can be pumped out like Lego.
  - petra 11y ago
    >> Can performance surfboards be disrupted? What about mid-level(those you graduate after wavestorm) - being manufactured in mexico via automated processes , using wavestorm like brand for cheap marketing , and being sold in costco ?
    - milesftl 11y ago
      they probably could be, they make these types of pop out boards in china now. I honestly dont know if they could ever be sold in a big box retailer type store only because of the margins/shelf space required for them. If everything made sense business wise I see 0 reason as to why this could not happen in the near future. The one thing that I am not sure anyone has brought up, is this is a relatively small market. You are talking about big box stores, along the coasts of tourist rich surfing areas.
    - mr_luc 11y ago
      Another point is that in disrupting cheap performance shortboards, you're now in competition with the used market on craigslist. Surfers making a conscientious effort to improve their performance -- bigger waves, steeper drops -- are going to break or otherwise 'use up' at least one board per good season. Given that, a lot of people would rather buy a used CI board that has had a small repair, or some minor dimpling, for $200-350, and then surf as hard as they can, and if it breaks it breaks. ... okay, that's just what I do. But Craigslist has made the used market a force to be reckoned with!
  - gonzo 11y ago
    LEGO-like surfaces are more difficult to make than you might appreciate. (Smallworks.com)
  - eru 11y ago
    By the way, Lego is not cheap. They have insanely small allowed tolerances for the original Lego.
- matwood 11y ago
  After my first few used boards when I was learning, all my subsequent boards have been custom made to my specifications. Each board has unique characteristics that make it fit wave and wind conditions. Popouts can fill the need for a certain board, but when in certain challenging conditions I want _my_ board(s).
- ndaiger 11y ago
  Like other small subcultures appropriated for their "cool factor" by the mainstream, there is a lot of internal policing for poseurs: people who don't know or care about the values or history of the subculture, and cheapen it by wearing it as a disposable signifier. This particularly matters in surfing, where a crowded wave is frustrating and dangerous. It's annoying when some dumb dickhead who doesn't know what he's doing (and doesn't care to learn) ruins a wave and endangers your life. Buying a board hand-shaped by a local shaper indicates a knowledge of the community and a commitment to its values. Shapers are generally making boards because they are obsessed with surfing their local breaks and have spent years or decades honing their craft. They live for surfing and their surf community. They do not, as a rule, get rich. One easy way to spot poseurs is by the board they ride. Beyond the cultural reasons, hand-shaped boards by long-time shapers tend to be: - better made - more interesting - more beautiful - particularly suited to the breaks that shaper surfs (and where their customers surf) - most importantly, support the people most committed to the sport and its values They're making boards for the love of surfing, not for a profit motive. But mostly it's so people know you're not a poseur.
  - stdbrouw 11y ago
    So is it about making sure nobody dies or about not cheapening the subculture? Because those are two very different things. And if the latter, the dickheads might be those who use the purchase of expensive handmade gear as an exclusionary mechanism.
    - fricken4 11y ago
      Surfing is plenty exclusionary. whether or not this is a bad thing, there are a finite number of decent breaks in the world. You can go to the ends of the earth, paddle out an hour before the sun is up, and there are already 20 guys in the water trying to catch the same wave. If you're a kook with a $100 soft top the others will work together to keep you at the back of the lineup. Whether it's a matter of safety or subculture is besides the point, dedicated surfers don't want you around. Surfers have no inclination to promote surfing unless they have some kind of sponsorship. Promotion is a corporate venture that has nothing to do with surfing and everything to do with making money. Mo money, mo problems.

by pbrb 11y ago

petra 11y ago

What's wrong with the overseas made boards?

mr_luc 11y ago
Surfer here, spent 7 years in remote coastal south america surfing fairly regularly. It's not that they're made overseas -- it's that the basic method of manufacture he mentioned, "pop-out", in the industry implies using a plastic shell and then pumping foam into it, and a few other similar methods of manufacture. For shortboards, it's pretty terrible. The boards are very heavy for a surfboard, with poor rigidity and flex, and in fact they don't even attempt to target the "real shortboard" market, where extreme light weight, stiffness and a very delicately balanced flex work together to form something that lets you nimbly glide along a decent-sized wave on a board slightly shorter than you are. Basically, the best form of manufacture for surfboards is a core of either high-quality rigid foam (not the heavy, flexible foam used in wavestorm/some pop-outs) or air, covered in substances like fiberglass and/or carbon-fiber fabric and minimal amounts of epoxies (sometimes using the same vacuum techniques as other carbon-fiber manufacturing to minimize weight). I said 'foam or air' because for a while people have been predicting that we'd move to hollow carbon-fiber boards, and there are/have been some of those boards, but they have their drawbacks and are often expensive. Can performance surfboards be disrupted? It's already happened, to a certain extent. Channel Islands and other surfboard brands use automated milling of the foam blanks, and other automated processes as well. Too, any overseas contenders have to worry about shipping. Surfboards are huge -- you could fit 20 boxed iphones in the footprint of a single boxed shortboard. At the price points mentioned ($300-$500), overseas shipping would probably eat into your margin. Shipping is even an issue for domestic producers; often shipping a board halfway across the country can cost $50-$100. Which is a nice bit of extra margin for a local shaper and his customers. When will good surfboards get cheap? Probably when great carbon-fiber bikes get cheap, ie, when carbon-fiber manufacture is so well mastered by man that designs in any shape can be pumped out like Lego.
- petra 11y ago
  >> Can performance surfboards be disrupted? What about mid-level(those you graduate after wavestorm) - being manufactured in mexico via automated processes , using wavestorm like brand for cheap marketing , and being sold in costco ?
  - milesftl 11y ago
    they probably could be, they make these types of pop out boards in china now. I honestly dont know if they could ever be sold in a big box retailer type store only because of the margins/shelf space required for them. If everything made sense business wise I see 0 reason as to why this could not happen in the near future. The one thing that I am not sure anyone has brought up, is this is a relatively small market. You are talking about big box stores, along the coasts of tourist rich surfing areas.
  - mr_luc 11y ago
    Another point is that in disrupting cheap performance shortboards, you're now in competition with the used market on craigslist. Surfers making a conscientious effort to improve their performance -- bigger waves, steeper drops -- are going to break or otherwise 'use up' at least one board per good season. Given that, a lot of people would rather buy a used CI board that has had a small repair, or some minor dimpling, for $200-350, and then surf as hard as they can, and if it breaks it breaks. ... okay, that's just what I do. But Craigslist has made the used market a force to be reckoned with!
- gonzo 11y ago
  LEGO-like surfaces are more difficult to make than you might appreciate. (Smallworks.com)
- eru 11y ago
  By the way, Lego is not cheap. They have insanely small allowed tolerances for the original Lego.
matwood 11y ago
After my first few used boards when I was learning, all my subsequent boards have been custom made to my specifications. Each board has unique characteristics that make it fit wave and wind conditions. Popouts can fill the need for a certain board, but when in certain challenging conditions I want _my_ board(s).
ndaiger 11y ago
Like other small subcultures appropriated for their "cool factor" by the mainstream, there is a lot of internal policing for poseurs: people who don't know or care about the values or history of the subculture, and cheapen it by wearing it as a disposable signifier. This particularly matters in surfing, where a crowded wave is frustrating and dangerous. It's annoying when some dumb dickhead who doesn't know what he's doing (and doesn't care to learn) ruins a wave and endangers your life. Buying a board hand-shaped by a local shaper indicates a knowledge of the community and a commitment to its values. Shapers are generally making boards because they are obsessed with surfing their local breaks and have spent years or decades honing their craft. They live for surfing and their surf community. They do not, as a rule, get rich. One easy way to spot poseurs is by the board they ride. Beyond the cultural reasons, hand-shaped boards by long-time shapers tend to be: - better made - more interesting - more beautiful - particularly suited to the breaks that shaper surfs (and where their customers surf) - most importantly, support the people most committed to the sport and its values They're making boards for the love of surfing, not for a profit motive. But mostly it's so people know you're not a poseur.
- stdbrouw 11y ago
  So is it about making sure nobody dies or about not cheapening the subculture? Because those are two very different things. And if the latter, the dickheads might be those who use the purchase of expensive handmade gear as an exclusionary mechanism.
  - fricken4 11y ago
    Surfing is plenty exclusionary. whether or not this is a bad thing, there are a finite number of decent breaks in the world. You can go to the ends of the earth, paddle out an hour before the sun is up, and there are already 20 guys in the water trying to catch the same wave. If you're a kook with a $100 soft top the others will work together to keep you at the back of the lineup. Whether it's a matter of safety or subculture is besides the point, dedicated surfers don't want you around. Surfers have no inclination to promote surfing unless they have some kind of sponsorship. Promotion is a corporate venture that has nothing to do with surfing and everything to do with making money. Mo money, mo problems.