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"What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?" Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should no

by Rod 17y ago

"What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?" Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should not tell you how to live your life. Nobody likes to be told what to do, nor how to live. Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests. Guests should keep their mouths shut until asked for their opinion. The Muslims I know who have adapted really well to Europe are the ones who adopt the attitude: these people do not know what Islam is, they think Islam is suicide bombers... so, as an ambassador of my religion, I will tell them what Islam is, without trying to force my belief system on them, so that they get a clearer picture of the enormous complexity and diversity of the Islamic world. By contrast, the morons who claim that it's OK to kill a cartoonist, and who claim that Muslims are victims, are the ones who give a bad image of Islam. "I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege." I live in the U.S. now and I disagree. The U.S. is a country of immigrants, and one of the unwritten requirements to live in the American society is that you conform to the norm. You don't need to lose your culture, but you need to mellow it down in your public life. Sorry, but the U.S. being as tolerant as you claim is a nice dream, imho. "Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe." I agree, but not for the reasons you gave. Europe has millenia of history. In Europe, nationality and ethnicity are too deeply connected. Though I am from Western Europe and lived in Denmark, I don't think I would ever feel Danish even if I lived there for 50 years. Being a U.S. citizen is much more cultural than ethnical. The U.S. is more welcoming to all immigrants because of this, not only to Muslims, but to everyone. And it has more to do with the ethnical aspect than with freedom of worship. Do you really think that Muslims in Europe have no freedom of worship?

jimbokun 17y ago
"Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests" Huh? The Muslims in European countries are not citizens? At what point do they stop being guests? Are they all just there for a short stay and plan to be leaving soon?
- Rod 17y ago
  Citizens and guests are not the same thing. You're reading the word "guest" too literally. In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise. You may be a citizen, vote, pay your taxes... but until you have been assimilated by the local culture, you are a "guest". Moreover, not all Muslims in Europe are equally "guest"-like. Turkish, for instance, who are viewed as somewhat secular by hard-core Muslim countries, are much closer to European culture than, say, Pakistani. In fact, the Turkish from Istanbul are actually quite European, geographically and historically. Indonesian Muslims, by contrast, are obviously much farther culturally. I knew a guy from Iran who moved to Sweden. He refused to drink, which is OK because it's against his religion. But he also refused to go out at night, for some mysterious reason. He assumed that college students who went out on Saturday nights were partaking in drunken orgies, and thought that Swedish women were whores. After a few months of being miserable and lonely, he decided to see things, instead of judging people he did not even know. I think he was slightly disappointed when he realized that, after all, young people did not engage in drunken orgies on Saturday nights :-D
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    "In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise." This much better explains why the U.S. better assimilates immigrants (Muslim or otherwise) than Europe, than anything I said. We have our immigration issues, but I have never heard anyone refer to a legal U.S. citizen as a "guest." It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized.
    - Rod 17y ago
      "It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized." Oh, come on. Do you think that Muslims moving to the U.S. don't have to give up anything? All immigrants have to be give up something, but they don't have to give up all: their own heritage, culture, and beliefs. That sounds melodramatic. It's as simple as this: when you move to a new country, you must adopt the local culture. That does not mean that you must give up your original culture entirely. No one said that they have to be incompatible. If you fail to adopt the culture of your new country, you are, essentially, insulting your hosts... and you will be ostracized in return, which is the natural human response in this situation.

by Rod 17y ago

jimbokun 17y ago

"Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests" Huh? The Muslims in European countries are not citizens? At what point do they stop being guests? Are they all just there for a short stay and plan to be leaving soon?

Rod 17y ago
Citizens and guests are not the same thing. You're reading the word "guest" too literally. In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise. You may be a citizen, vote, pay your taxes... but until you have been assimilated by the local culture, you are a "guest". Moreover, not all Muslims in Europe are equally "guest"-like. Turkish, for instance, who are viewed as somewhat secular by hard-core Muslim countries, are much closer to European culture than, say, Pakistani. In fact, the Turkish from Istanbul are actually quite European, geographically and historically. Indonesian Muslims, by contrast, are obviously much farther culturally. I knew a guy from Iran who moved to Sweden. He refused to drink, which is OK because it's against his religion. But he also refused to go out at night, for some mysterious reason. He assumed that college students who went out on Saturday nights were partaking in drunken orgies, and thought that Swedish women were whores. After a few months of being miserable and lonely, he decided to see things, instead of judging people he did not even know. I think he was slightly disappointed when he realized that, after all, young people did not engage in drunken orgies on Saturday nights :-D
- jimbokun 17y ago
  "In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise." This much better explains why the U.S. better assimilates immigrants (Muslim or otherwise) than Europe, than anything I said. We have our immigration issues, but I have never heard anyone refer to a legal U.S. citizen as a "guest." It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized.
  - Rod 17y ago
    "It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized." Oh, come on. Do you think that Muslims moving to the U.S. don't have to give up anything? All immigrants have to be give up something, but they don't have to give up all: their own heritage, culture, and beliefs. That sounds melodramatic. It's as simple as this: when you move to a new country, you must adopt the local culture. That does not mean that you must give up your original culture entirely. No one said that they have to be incompatible. If you fail to adopt the culture of your new country, you are, essentially, insulting your hosts... and you will be ostracized in return, which is the natural human response in this situation.