5 ms·

But if you needed to (and had lots of patience…), you could get your whole development stack on a $250 notebook, because there's $250 notebooks with Windows, or

by creshal 11y ago

But if you needed to (and had lots of patience…), you could get your whole development stack on a $250 notebook, because there's $250 notebooks with Windows, or where you can install Linux etc. Granted, it's not as productive (trackpoint or riot!), but it works. But with the increasing tivoization of computing? Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? People in developing countries? Poor people in developed countries? Not everyone can afford a 1000€ price tag. Should these people really be excluded from everything that isn't mindless passive consumption?

pjmlp 11y ago
> Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? The same way we learned since the late 70's on the home computers. Installing some kind of application that allows coding. The only difference being that BASIC or Forth were already builtin.
opnitro 11y ago
While maybe this won't always be the case, the current chromeOS structure allows for arbitrary code, you just have to enable a development mode. The process for doing that is well documented. I don't have a problem with a computer that comes restricted as long as there is a documented process for un-restricting it. Same reason I don't find SIP in OS X or Secure Boot a problem. Security features are good as long as they are configurable.
- creshal 11y ago
  Configurability can be taken away easily. Secure Boot is the best example for that: • On Windows RT devices it always was mandatory and could not be disabled. • On Windows 8 devices, manufacturers must give users an option to disable it. • On Windows 10 devices, it is now in the manufacturer discretion whether it can be disabled or not. The next step is obvious.
  - opnitro 11y ago
    Right, that's a problem. I fully agree with you on that. I just think it's important that fight for the right thing. Secure Boot isn't the problem. In fact, most people probably should leave it on because it's a good security feature. It is absolutely critical that these features work for users and not against them though.
  - e12e 11y ago
    Funny you should mention Microsoft Windows. As I understand it, the phone OS is now unified with tablet and desktop - but you still can't run anything but windows on a windows phone. I don't expect them to offer up the driver source code (all though that would be nice) - but an open boot loader would be a start. I suppose it's no surprise. It goes something like this: a) underwrite the device (not necessarily lose money on every sale, just lower the margins), b) introduce an app store, c) take a cut of every transaction. As long as users and developers need your OS, your device - your appstore - you will make money.
hereonbusiness 11y ago
I think it's just a matter of time for that trend of exclusively mobile/dumb devices to start reversing especially as phones/tablets increase in processing power. Canonical already showed us it is possible to run both Android and a full desktop OS on the Android kernel years ago[1], MS Surface tablets are basically laptops without a fixed hinge between the keyboard and screen. I see at least one clear profit motive for the industry here, let's say you have a "Desktop enabled, smart" smartphone, you'll probably want to buy a dock, screen, keyboard, mouse, productivity software, etc. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_for_Android https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_for_Android
rthomas6 11y ago
Easy: Just build a PC! It's not hard and it can be dirt cheap. Look at this: http://choosemypc.net/build/?budget=400&oc=false&options=,os http://choosemypc.net/build/?budget=400&oc=false&options=,os
- hga 11y ago
  That's what I was thinking. Off the top of my head (not 100% checking compatability, but with current Newegg prices), to replace my current machine, not counting the 24 inch 1080p monitor (which in my experience last a long time as long as a tornado doesn't throw rocks into them (really)) and keyboard, mouse, etc.: Supermicro XnSAE workstation motherboard: 215 3.3GHz 4 core Xeon E3-1226 CPU w/HDMI out: 217 32 GiB DDR3 1600 ECC Kingston memory: 240 Low end 1/3 w/year for 5 years data center 80GB Intel SATA SSD: 100 Seagate "enterprise" <550/TB/year 4 TB hard disk: 210 982 USD plus shipping plus whatever enclosure, power supply, high quality fans etc. you put into it, which ought not go over $200 new. E.g. after discovering a Lian-Li enclosure I love I bought 3 more and cycle through them. Plus backup, however you do that (make sure critical stuff is offsite!). And, say, a man-week of your time to configure, order, build, install and configure Linux. The result will be very fast and rock solid (well, if put behind a good UPS) workstation class machine with a 5 year design life.
PeCaN 11y ago
> Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? Simple enough; they'll code on tablets. I'm actually currently working on a prototype for how a simple, useful development environment might look on a phone or tablet. It's a stack-based concatenative array language with a zoomable user interface. Instead of representing code as lines of text, it takes a more Smalltalk-like approach of a live environment. The benefit of being a concatenative language is that it naturally lends itself to a tree-like format where each word can be viewed and edited on a phone screen. Since semantically it's closer to a weird mashup of J and Perl(!), it can be concise (hopefully still readable) and the vector aspect makes drawing graphics pretty straightforward. The downside, of course, is that it can be quite hard to reason in. Truthfully, I'm not really sure how to work around that—and I don't think most children will easily think in a function composition/matrix manipulation way. That said, I'd like to find something since I'm fairly sold on the idea that tacit programming with arrays is key to making coding on a tablet work (I think it's fairly clear that imperative or even conventional function languages would be a royal pain to use in such an environment). Maybe something Lisp-like where the user zooms around the AST would be an alternative. > Poor people in developed countries? Much cheaper phones and tablets are already vastly more popular than laptops or desktops among poor people. The solution is to move coding forward on mobile, not simply keep rather trashy cheap laptops around.
- socksy 11y ago
  > Since semantically it's closer to a weird mashup of J and Perl(!), it can be concise (hopefully still readable) I see you've chosen well known readable languages as your inspiration ;)
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? There's plenty of free, on-device code editor, compiler/interpreter, etc. apps for Android, including ones that will allow you to run code in the app, or build, package, and install (given that you've enable non-Store installation) Android apps right on the device.

by creshal 11y ago

pjmlp 11y ago

> Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? The same way we learned since the late 70's on the home computers. Installing some kind of application that allows coding. The only difference being that BASIC or Forth were already builtin.

opnitro 11y ago

While maybe this won't always be the case, the current chromeOS structure allows for arbitrary code, you just have to enable a development mode. The process for doing that is well documented. I don't have a problem with a computer that comes restricted as long as there is a documented process for un-restricting it. Same reason I don't find SIP in OS X or Secure Boot a problem. Security features are good as long as they are configurable.

creshal 11y ago
Configurability can be taken away easily. Secure Boot is the best example for that: • On Windows RT devices it always was mandatory and could not be disabled. • On Windows 8 devices, manufacturers must give users an option to disable it. • On Windows 10 devices, it is now in the manufacturer discretion whether it can be disabled or not. The next step is obvious.
- opnitro 11y ago
  Right, that's a problem. I fully agree with you on that. I just think it's important that fight for the right thing. Secure Boot isn't the problem. In fact, most people probably should leave it on because it's a good security feature. It is absolutely critical that these features work for users and not against them though.
- e12e 11y ago
  Funny you should mention Microsoft Windows. As I understand it, the phone OS is now unified with tablet and desktop - but you still can't run anything but windows on a windows phone. I don't expect them to offer up the driver source code (all though that would be nice) - but an open boot loader would be a start. I suppose it's no surprise. It goes something like this: a) underwrite the device (not necessarily lose money on every sale, just lower the margins), b) introduce an app store, c) take a cut of every transaction. As long as users and developers need your OS, your device - your appstore - you will make money.

hereonbusiness 11y ago

I think it's just a matter of time for that trend of exclusively mobile/dumb devices to start reversing especially as phones/tablets increase in processing power. Canonical already showed us it is possible to run both Android and a full desktop OS on the Android kernel years ago[1], MS Surface tablets are basically laptops without a fixed hinge between the keyboard and screen. I see at least one clear profit motive for the industry here, let's say you have a "Desktop enabled, smart" smartphone, you'll probably want to buy a dock, screen, keyboard, mouse, productivity software, etc. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_for_Android https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_for_Android

rthomas6 11y ago

Easy: Just build a PC! It's not hard and it can be dirt cheap. Look at this: http://choosemypc.net/build/?budget=400&oc=false&options=,os http://choosemypc.net/build/?budget=400&oc=false&options=,os

hga 11y ago
That's what I was thinking. Off the top of my head (not 100% checking compatability, but with current Newegg prices), to replace my current machine, not counting the 24 inch 1080p monitor (which in my experience last a long time as long as a tornado doesn't throw rocks into them (really)) and keyboard, mouse, etc.: Supermicro XnSAE workstation motherboard: 215 3.3GHz 4 core Xeon E3-1226 CPU w/HDMI out: 217 32 GiB DDR3 1600 ECC Kingston memory: 240 Low end 1/3 w/year for 5 years data center 80GB Intel SATA SSD: 100 Seagate "enterprise" <550/TB/year 4 TB hard disk: 210 982 USD plus shipping plus whatever enclosure, power supply, high quality fans etc. you put into it, which ought not go over $200 new. E.g. after discovering a Lian-Li enclosure I love I bought 3 more and cycle through them. Plus backup, however you do that (make sure critical stuff is offsite!). And, say, a man-week of your time to configure, order, build, install and configure Linux. The result will be very fast and rock solid (well, if put behind a good UPS) workstation class machine with a 5 year design life.

PeCaN 11y ago

> Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? Simple enough; they'll code on tablets. I'm actually currently working on a prototype for how a simple, useful development environment might look on a phone or tablet. It's a stack-based concatenative array language with a zoomable user interface. Instead of representing code as lines of text, it takes a more Smalltalk-like approach of a live environment. The benefit of being a concatenative language is that it naturally lends itself to a tree-like format where each word can be viewed and edited on a phone screen. Since semantically it's closer to a weird mashup of J and Perl(!), it can be concise (hopefully still readable) and the vector aspect makes drawing graphics pretty straightforward. The downside, of course, is that it can be quite hard to reason in. Truthfully, I'm not really sure how to work around that—and I don't think most children will easily think in a function composition/matrix manipulation way. That said, I'd like to find something since I'm fairly sold on the idea that tacit programming with arrays is key to making coding on a tablet work (I think it's fairly clear that imperative or even conventional function languages would be a royal pain to use in such an environment). Maybe something Lisp-like where the user zooms around the AST would be an alternative. > Poor people in developed countries? Much cheaper phones and tablets are already vastly more popular than laptops or desktops among poor people. The solution is to move coding forward on mobile, not simply keep rather trashy cheap laptops around.

socksy 11y ago
> Since semantically it's closer to a weird mashup of J and Perl(!), it can be concise (hopefully still readable) I see you've chosen well known readable languages as your inspiration ;)

dragonwriter 11y ago

> Once below-1000€-laptops/desktops disappear in favour of oversized tablets, how are children going to learn coding? There's plenty of free, on-device code editor, compiler/interpreter, etc. apps for Android, including ones that will allow you to run code in the app, or build, package, and install (given that you've enable non-Store installation) Android apps right on the device.