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Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive a

by Rod 17y ago

Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive and distasteful, and the author should have kept in mind that insulting 1 billion people is a bad idea. His mistake. However, what I do know is that Westerners in Muslim countries tend to play by the local rules (I am not talking of the U.S. Military in Iraq). By contrast, many Muslims in Western Europe refuse to accept the European culture. Is there racism a part of the problem? Yes, sure it is. But there's more to it: if you reject the local culture, the locals will reject you. Of course, the same goes for Westerners living in Muslim countries. A difference is that Westerners in Muslim countries are not at the bottom of the barrel as often as Muslims in the West are. In my view it's as simple as this: adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from. We, Europeans, do not like Muslim foreigners telling us that our women are whores, that we are spiritually dead, that we should not drink, etc. I know a bunch of Muslims living in Europe and, not surprisingly, the ones who are fully integrated in their host society and who have Western friends are the ones who accept the local culture and don't try to preach that their values are any better.

jimbokun 17y ago
What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better? As long as they are not trying to coerce you to live the way they do, why do you care? Let them preach all they want, and just ignore them. I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege. Yes, the current Republican party does not subscribe to that ethos. But that is part of the reason why they are losing so many elections recently. The problem is not that they are Christians with strongly held beliefs that they express openly. The problem is that more and more they try to force those beliefs on others, whether their fellow citizens or Muslims around the world. (This is not the only reason they are losing, a million caveats apply, etc. etc.) Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe. This is because they know that they are free to worship here as they please and freely express what they think, and that trying to control what others can say or think will not be tolerated. This is all just my opinion, of course, and am open to evidence to the contrary.
- philk 17y ago
  I suspect that there are actually a couple of other reasons why muslims are better integrated into the US than Europe: a) It's more geographically remote from Islamic countries hence you have fewer unskilled immigrants turning up. b) American has less in the way of welfare so immigrants (and their children) have to get jobs. Working with fellow citizens makes you realise that you have something in common with them and encourages integration.
- Rod 17y ago
  "What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?" Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should not tell you how to live your life. Nobody likes to be told what to do, nor how to live. Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests. Guests should keep their mouths shut until asked for their opinion. The Muslims I know who have adapted really well to Europe are the ones who adopt the attitude: these people do not know what Islam is, they think Islam is suicide bombers... so, as an ambassador of my religion, I will tell them what Islam is, without trying to force my belief system on them, so that they get a clearer picture of the enormous complexity and diversity of the Islamic world. By contrast, the morons who claim that it's OK to kill a cartoonist, and who claim that Muslims are victims, are the ones who give a bad image of Islam. "I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege." I live in the U.S. now and I disagree. The U.S. is a country of immigrants, and one of the unwritten requirements to live in the American society is that you conform to the norm. You don't need to lose your culture, but you need to mellow it down in your public life. Sorry, but the U.S. being as tolerant as you claim is a nice dream, imho. "Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe." I agree, but not for the reasons you gave. Europe has millenia of history. In Europe, nationality and ethnicity are too deeply connected. Though I am from Western Europe and lived in Denmark, I don't think I would ever feel Danish even if I lived there for 50 years. Being a U.S. citizen is much more cultural than ethnical. The U.S. is more welcoming to all immigrants because of this, not only to Muslims, but to everyone. And it has more to do with the ethnical aspect than with freedom of worship. Do you really think that Muslims in Europe have no freedom of worship?
theotherside 17y ago
For the record I totally agree with you. Being a minority with a relatively short history in the West, Muslims should certainly carry themselves with fitting humility. Indeed, there is extensive basis in Islam for this. Many understand that. Then again, many are malcontents, uneducated, unemployed and so on. This does not excuse wrongdoings, but it goes some way to explain it. And the solution, from society's point of view, and assuming we actually want a solution, is not to tease the wounded animal just to prove a point.

by Rod 17y ago

jimbokun 17y ago

What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better? As long as they are not trying to coerce you to live the way they do, why do you care? Let them preach all they want, and just ignore them. I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege. Yes, the current Republican party does not subscribe to that ethos. But that is part of the reason why they are losing so many elections recently. The problem is not that they are Christians with strongly held beliefs that they express openly. The problem is that more and more they try to force those beliefs on others, whether their fellow citizens or Muslims around the world. (This is not the only reason they are losing, a million caveats apply, etc. etc.) Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe. This is because they know that they are free to worship here as they please and freely express what they think, and that trying to control what others can say or think will not be tolerated. This is all just my opinion, of course, and am open to evidence to the contrary.

philk 17y ago
I suspect that there are actually a couple of other reasons why muslims are better integrated into the US than Europe: a) It's more geographically remote from Islamic countries hence you have fewer unskilled immigrants turning up. b) American has less in the way of welfare so immigrants (and their children) have to get jobs. Working with fellow citizens makes you realise that you have something in common with them and encourages integration.
Rod 17y ago
"What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?" Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should not tell you how to live your life. Nobody likes to be told what to do, nor how to live. Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests. Guests should keep their mouths shut until asked for their opinion. The Muslims I know who have adapted really well to Europe are the ones who adopt the attitude: these people do not know what Islam is, they think Islam is suicide bombers... so, as an ambassador of my religion, I will tell them what Islam is, without trying to force my belief system on them, so that they get a clearer picture of the enormous complexity and diversity of the Islamic world. By contrast, the morons who claim that it's OK to kill a cartoonist, and who claim that Muslims are victims, are the ones who give a bad image of Islam. "I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we want, as long as we grant others the same privilege." I live in the U.S. now and I disagree. The U.S. is a country of immigrants, and one of the unwritten requirements to live in the American society is that you conform to the norm. You don't need to lose your culture, but you need to mellow it down in your public life. Sorry, but the U.S. being as tolerant as you claim is a nice dream, imho. "Ironically, even with the U.S. wars in Muslim countries still ongoing, I still believe that Muslims are better integrated into U.S. society than they are in Europe." I agree, but not for the reasons you gave. Europe has millenia of history. In Europe, nationality and ethnicity are too deeply connected. Though I am from Western Europe and lived in Denmark, I don't think I would ever feel Danish even if I lived there for 50 years. Being a U.S. citizen is much more cultural than ethnical. The U.S. is more welcoming to all immigrants because of this, not only to Muslims, but to everyone. And it has more to do with the ethnical aspect than with freedom of worship. Do you really think that Muslims in Europe have no freedom of worship?

theotherside 17y ago

For the record I totally agree with you. Being a minority with a relatively short history in the West, Muslims should certainly carry themselves with fitting humility. Indeed, there is extensive basis in Islam for this. Many understand that. Then again, many are malcontents, uneducated, unemployed and so on. This does not excuse wrongdoings, but it goes some way to explain it. And the solution, from society's point of view, and assuming we actually want a solution, is not to tease the wounded animal just to prove a point.