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Good! We need to ditch all the analytics software that rely on clients to make pointless HTTP requests. They are offloading their work on to the website visitor

Good! We need to ditch all the analytics software that rely on clients to make pointless HTTP requests. They are offloading their work on to the website visitors, wasting every user's bandwidth and slowing down internet connections worldwide. If you want to know who is visiting your site, try reading your server logs.

praxulus 11y ago
You can't read their Google Analytics cookies in your server logs though.
- HappyTypist 11y ago
  Unless you patch your web server of your choice.
- joosters 11y ago
  Most web servers can log cookie data or even arbitrary HTTP headers, you just have to modify the log format.
  - amelius 11y ago
    The point is that third-party cookies will never reach your server (in this case Google Analytics' cookies), because the request they are piggy-backed on is going to Google, not to your server.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  For clarity, as some replies seem to have missed the point: because conforming clients will not send the cookie in the origin server request due to domain name differences.
mahyarm 11y ago
Why don't they proxy host client-side analytics on their side, and don't put the word analytics in the endpoint names? Most ads would be unblockable if you made the ads come from your domain and have them indistinguishable from your normal content in the URIs as far as I know.
- civilian 11y ago
  Maybe the people purchasing ad space wouldn't be able to verify impressions?
  - frik 11y ago
    How about static ad-pictures served from the ad-network's server? The ad network can track the impression. That's how it all began back in the nineties, and it worked fine. Everyone would be happy.
- ZeroBugBounce 11y ago
  IMO they will do this out of necessity soon enough. This will mean advertisers can't count exact hits to their ads (or at least would be foolish to do so) so they will probably have to employ some kind of web crawler or HIT services to randomly sample the sites who are supposed to be serving their ads to make sure they are. But eventually the blocker technology will become much better at blocking page element ads more easily and automatically. Then I guess they will have to think of something else.
- joosters 11y ago
  Analytics are different from ads. When you're running analytics on your own site, you can trust your own logs. But when you are displaying adverts, the ad buyers will likely want better proof that their ad was displayed 'n' times.
  - frik 11y ago
    They should crawl the website x-times a day (sample) to check if you ate displaying their ads. Or release a binary blob so that you can host their ads on your server (which reports back to their ad network once per hour)
    - blumkvist 11y ago
      Do you really think this is a feasible solution?
snowwrestler 11y ago
Analytics JS is not pointless because it is part of the page/service that the visitor is requesting. It is a legitimate form of data logging just like Apache or Nginx logs and reading cookies. Logging is a necessity for troubleshooting and improving any software service. It's no more pointless than using Adobe Typekit for fonts or pulling jquery from a CDN. Both of these use a lot more bandwidth than an analytics ping, BTW.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  It gives you a bit of extra data, I do use it on my site and all my client's sites, but in reality it's actually pretty invasive privacy wise.
- dasil003 11y ago
  The point you are missing is that users don't need to send an analytics ping for the page to load. If you were to conflate your jquery load with analytics so that the page was broken, then you could prevent the use of ad-blockers (although you're just as likely to make people think your site is just broken). The use of bandwidth is a moot point. If advertisers hadn't abused the user's good will we wouldn't be where we are today, but there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.
  - snowwrestler 11y ago
    If we're talking about "need" then the conversation gets sticky pretty quickly. Users don't really need webfonts; text just needs to be readable. And they don't need to grab jquery from a CDN; it can come off the server. Heck, they don't need to grab anything from a CDN--the app server can serve images just as well as Cloudflare. Do users really need DDOS protection? No, that protects the server, not the user. And it banks their legitmate request--needlessly--through a proxy server, which certainly adds latency. Not to mention that Cloudflare can see everything they're browsing. Do users need single-page JS apps at all? Why not just render HTML4 on the server like in the good old days? So why do developers use these technologies? Because it makes the user experience better. And so do analytics. Without analytics, developers are flying blind. And no, Apache/Nginx logs don't capture the same data--especially with more advanced JS-heavy sites. Users want websites that load fast and are easy to use. It is impossible to build or improve such a site without data upon which to base decisions. That's why analytics are a necessity.
adrr 11y ago
Server logs are missing important information like screen resolution, navigator.language etc. Server logs also can't report on element events. Nor does it work with things like single page apps. How can developers make their apps better without having the proper analytics to do so?
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Store that info and bundle it into the next request.
- downandout 11y ago
  You can certainly obtain this information with your own javascript and record it on your own server. Combine it with your server logs and you have can most of the same information you would have had from GA or another hosted solution.
  - jamiesonbecker 11y ago
    Agreed! but s/most/all/g FTFY :) Actually, GA only provides you with a [meager] subset of the data that Google gathers. Now it's their data.. not yours, and not your customers. They won't even give up IP addresses so that you can check it against your own logs.
  - icoder 11y ago
    Yes, and although that would remedy some of the tracking/privacy concerns with GA, the (grand)parent comment's concern with bandwidth would not be solved but transformed when taking the road you describe.
  - natarius4k 11y ago
    I have build myself a little rails gem to help with that: https://github.com/KaktusLab/sql_metrics https://github.com/KaktusLab/sql_metrics
    - mhw 11y ago
      I've had pretty good experiences so far with Ahoy - https://ankane.github.io/ahoy/ https://ankane.github.io/ahoy/
amelius 11y ago
Yes, but you can't then "connect" this information using a cookie from another domain, like e.g. Facebook is doing with their embedded like-buttons.
est 11y ago
> software that rely on clients to make pointless HTTP requests Somebody please kill HTTP-DASH

praxulus 11y ago

You can't read their Google Analytics cookies in your server logs though.

HappyTypist 11y ago
Unless you patch your web server of your choice.
joosters 11y ago
Most web servers can log cookie data or even arbitrary HTTP headers, you just have to modify the log format.
- amelius 11y ago
  The point is that third-party cookies will never reach your server (in this case Google Analytics' cookies), because the request they are piggy-backed on is going to Google, not to your server.
oldmanjay 11y ago
For clarity, as some replies seem to have missed the point: because conforming clients will not send the cookie in the origin server request due to domain name differences.

mahyarm 11y ago

Why don't they proxy host client-side analytics on their side, and don't put the word analytics in the endpoint names? Most ads would be unblockable if you made the ads come from your domain and have them indistinguishable from your normal content in the URIs as far as I know.

civilian 11y ago
Maybe the people purchasing ad space wouldn't be able to verify impressions?
- frik 11y ago
  How about static ad-pictures served from the ad-network's server? The ad network can track the impression. That's how it all began back in the nineties, and it worked fine. Everyone would be happy.
ZeroBugBounce 11y ago
IMO they will do this out of necessity soon enough. This will mean advertisers can't count exact hits to their ads (or at least would be foolish to do so) so they will probably have to employ some kind of web crawler or HIT services to randomly sample the sites who are supposed to be serving their ads to make sure they are. But eventually the blocker technology will become much better at blocking page element ads more easily and automatically. Then I guess they will have to think of something else.
joosters 11y ago
Analytics are different from ads. When you're running analytics on your own site, you can trust your own logs. But when you are displaying adverts, the ad buyers will likely want better proof that their ad was displayed 'n' times.
- frik 11y ago
  They should crawl the website x-times a day (sample) to check if you ate displaying their ads. Or release a binary blob so that you can host their ads on your server (which reports back to their ad network once per hour)
  - blumkvist 11y ago
    Do you really think this is a feasible solution?

snowwrestler 11y ago

Analytics JS is not pointless because it is part of the page/service that the visitor is requesting. It is a legitimate form of data logging just like Apache or Nginx logs and reading cookies. Logging is a necessity for troubleshooting and improving any software service. It's no more pointless than using Adobe Typekit for fonts or pulling jquery from a CDN. Both of these use a lot more bandwidth than an analytics ping, BTW.

mattmanser 11y ago
It gives you a bit of extra data, I do use it on my site and all my client's sites, but in reality it's actually pretty invasive privacy wise.
dasil003 11y ago
The point you are missing is that users don't need to send an analytics ping for the page to load. If you were to conflate your jquery load with analytics so that the page was broken, then you could prevent the use of ad-blockers (although you're just as likely to make people think your site is just broken). The use of bandwidth is a moot point. If advertisers hadn't abused the user's good will we wouldn't be where we are today, but there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  If we're talking about "need" then the conversation gets sticky pretty quickly. Users don't really need webfonts; text just needs to be readable. And they don't need to grab jquery from a CDN; it can come off the server. Heck, they don't need to grab anything from a CDN--the app server can serve images just as well as Cloudflare. Do users really need DDOS protection? No, that protects the server, not the user. And it banks their legitmate request--needlessly--through a proxy server, which certainly adds latency. Not to mention that Cloudflare can see everything they're browsing. Do users need single-page JS apps at all? Why not just render HTML4 on the server like in the good old days? So why do developers use these technologies? Because it makes the user experience better. And so do analytics. Without analytics, developers are flying blind. And no, Apache/Nginx logs don't capture the same data--especially with more advanced JS-heavy sites. Users want websites that load fast and are easy to use. It is impossible to build or improve such a site without data upon which to base decisions. That's why analytics are a necessity.

adrr 11y ago

Server logs are missing important information like screen resolution, navigator.language etc. Server logs also can't report on element events. Nor does it work with things like single page apps. How can developers make their apps better without having the proper analytics to do so?

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Store that info and bundle it into the next request.
downandout 11y ago
You can certainly obtain this information with your own javascript and record it on your own server. Combine it with your server logs and you have can most of the same information you would have had from GA or another hosted solution.
- jamiesonbecker 11y ago
  Agreed! but s/most/all/g FTFY :) Actually, GA only provides you with a [meager] subset of the data that Google gathers. Now it's their data.. not yours, and not your customers. They won't even give up IP addresses so that you can check it against your own logs.
- icoder 11y ago
  Yes, and although that would remedy some of the tracking/privacy concerns with GA, the (grand)parent comment's concern with bandwidth would not be solved but transformed when taking the road you describe.
- natarius4k 11y ago
  I have build myself a little rails gem to help with that: https://github.com/KaktusLab/sql_metrics https://github.com/KaktusLab/sql_metrics
  - mhw 11y ago
    I've had pretty good experiences so far with Ahoy - https://ankane.github.io/ahoy/ https://ankane.github.io/ahoy/

amelius 11y ago

Yes, but you can't then "connect" this information using a cookie from another domain, like e.g. Facebook is doing with their embedded like-buttons.

est 11y ago

> software that rely on clients to make pointless HTTP requests Somebody please kill HTTP-DASH