4 ms·

Can you name one substantial software project with more than 10 developers that you expect to be bug free?

by sn 11y ago

ploxiln 11y ago
Space Shuttle embedded controllers firmware ... I'll say a bit more ... I think it's sad that it's not practical anymore to write really high quality code. And most computer security researchers aren't interested in that anymore either, because it's not possible to force all other developers to write high quality code (and if you do you're called "mean" "alienating" etc.) So all they/we try to do is find new layers to contain all the bad code that has been and will be written. Can we really be surprised when those layers, particularly if they are popular because they came out first and have lots of features, are also low-quality code? Is there anywhere a foot can be put down? Also, openbsd is another good example of a project with code with a very very low bug density.
- jperras 11y ago
  > Space Shuttle embedded controllers firmware Not the space shuttle, but if you think things that go to space (and land on the goddamned Moon) are free of bugs then you are very sorely mistaken. https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=ApolloComputer https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=ApolloComputer
  - troutwine 11y ago
    The orbiter computer was also not bug free. Remarkably correct software, even so. http://klabs.org/DEI/Processor/shuttle/ http://klabs.org/DEI/Processor/shuttle/
  - vacri 11y ago
    At $job-2 doing agricultural telemetry, our firmware engineer found that one ISP's satellite was randomly dropping the last character in routed traffic. Took a little while for them to believe us, and that satellite had been up there for 30 years...
- taspeotis 11y ago
  The engineering behind the space shuttle software is a fun read [1]. [1] http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff/ http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff/
devit 11y ago
Not sure, such is the sad state of the world. But it would be especially important to have SOMETHING that can run multiple applications while being 100% sure that it is enforcing security between them. So far everything has been a total disaster, with browsers getting completely owned every year at Pwn2Own, conventional kernels being effectively expected to be locally exploitable at all times (which means all mobile sandboxes are broken as well), and hypervisors where Xen seems to be the most secure of the ones that are mature, and is still terrible.
sokoloff 11y ago
> Can you name one substantial software project with more than 10 developers that you expect to be bug free? No, not even if you're counting in binary.
rodgerd 11y ago
seL4 microkernel. Of course, the velocity of development is very low, but that's because they want developers who can wrap their head around formal proofs.
lmm 11y ago
Perfect is the enemy of good. There are plenty of projects I expect to have 90% lower defect rates.
i336_ 11y ago
This story from last month comes to mind: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10430862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10430862 I suspect hiring this company would make even a large budget wilt a bit. Just a bit :P

Can you name one substantial software project with more than 10 developers that you expect to be bug free?

by sn 11y ago

Can you name one substantial software project with more than 10 developers that you expect to be bug free?

Space Shuttle embedded controllers firmware ... I'll say a bit more ... I think it's sad that it's not practical anymore to write really high quality code. And most computer security researchers aren't interested in that anymore either, because it's not possible to force all other developers to write high quality code (and if you do you're called "mean" "alienating" etc.) So all they/we try to do is find new layers to contain all the bad code that has been and will be written. Can we really be surprised when those layers, particularly if they are popular because they came out first and have lots of features, are also low-quality code? Is there anywhere a foot can be put down? Also, openbsd is another good example of a project with code with a very very low bug density.

jperras 11y ago
> Space Shuttle embedded controllers firmware Not the space shuttle, but if you think things that go to space (and land on the goddamned Moon) are free of bugs then you are very sorely mistaken. https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=ApolloComputer https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=ApolloComputer
- troutwine 11y ago
  The orbiter computer was also not bug free. Remarkably correct software, even so. http://klabs.org/DEI/Processor/shuttle/ http://klabs.org/DEI/Processor/shuttle/
- vacri 11y ago
  At $job-2 doing agricultural telemetry, our firmware engineer found that one ISP's satellite was randomly dropping the last character in routed traffic. Took a little while for them to believe us, and that satellite had been up there for 30 years...
taspeotis 11y ago
The engineering behind the space shuttle software is a fun read [1]. [1] http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff/ http://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff/

devit 11y ago

Not sure, such is the sad state of the world. But it would be especially important to have SOMETHING that can run multiple applications while being 100% sure that it is enforcing security between them. So far everything has been a total disaster, with browsers getting completely owned every year at Pwn2Own, conventional kernels being effectively expected to be locally exploitable at all times (which means all mobile sandboxes are broken as well), and hypervisors where Xen seems to be the most secure of the ones that are mature, and is still terrible.

sokoloff 11y ago

> Can you name one substantial software project with more than 10 developers that you expect to be bug free? No, not even if you're counting in binary.

rodgerd 11y ago

seL4 microkernel. Of course, the velocity of development is very low, but that's because they want developers who can wrap their head around formal proofs.

lmm 11y ago

Perfect is the enemy of good. There are plenty of projects I expect to have 90% lower defect rates.

i336_ 11y ago

This story from last month comes to mind: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10430862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10430862 I suspect hiring this company would make even a large budget wilt a bit. Just a bit :P