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I work in solar, and here's some quick facts: 1. 1 out of 78 jobs created in the U.S. last year were solar jobs[1]. 2. There are more solar employees in Calif

by diafygi 11y ago

I work in solar, and here's some quick facts: 1. 1 out of 78 jobs created in the U.S. last year were solar jobs[1]. 2. There are more solar employees in California than utility employees[2]. 3. Soft costs (non-hardware) are 64% of the installed cost of solar[3]. 4. Solar is expected to reach a load defection point (i.e. cheaper to leave the grid) in most places in the next 10-15 years[4]. Like OP's article states, this industry's hardware has gotten so good, the software in the industry hasn't kept up. So much so, in fact, that an entire startup accelerator program in the bay area, Powerhouse[5], has been created to try and attract tech entrepreneurs into the solar industry to make the next generation of solar software. My startup recently went through the program, and being a part of this industry is one of the most empowering and rewarding things I've ever done. It's one of those extremely rare instances where you can have a solid business model and a positive impact on the world. And we need all the help it can get. Solar expected to grow 100-200x over the next 25 years[6], but it won't happen if smart people don't join in. If you're a tech entrepreneur, and want to do something that matters, please please please consider doing a startup in solar. [1]: http://energy.gov/eere/articles/1-78-new-jobs-america-solar-job http://energy.gov/eere/articles/1-78-new-jobs-america-solar-... [2]: http://www.calseia.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=231 http://www.calseia.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=art... [3]: http://energy.gov/eere/sunshot/reducing-non-hardware-costs http://energy.gov/eere/sunshot/reducing-non-hardware-costs [4]: http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_04_07_report_release_the_economics_of_load_defection http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2015_04_07_report_release_the_econo... [5]: https://powerhouse.solar/ https://powerhouse.solar/ [6]: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-23/the-way-humans-get-electricity-is-about-to-change-forever http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-23/the-way-hu...

AnkhMorporkian 11y ago
I feel point 2 is a bit misleading. That solar count includes all solar manufacturing jobs. Utility companies don't engage in manufacturing, so the comparison doesn't really seem to have any utility, if you'll pardon the horrible pun. If you included all coal, natural gas, oil, and other non-renewable equipment manufacturing, I'm positive they'd beat solar by quite a margin.
- savanaly 11y ago
  Also, requiring jobs is a downside of something, not an upside. But it seemed like he was trying to plug solar by bragging about how many jobs it would create.
  - lumberjack 11y ago
    It's a cost that the businesses and consumers have to deal with but it is not necessarily a cost for society at large.
    - savanaly 11y ago
      It is a cost for society at large. Any workers that are employed in solar are not employed in some other job, so we have to be losing out in production somewhere if we switch our power generation from something that requires fewer workers to something that requires more. Even if the extra workers required to make solar work came exclusively from the ranks of the unemployed or retired, we are still losing the leisure time they had previously been enjoying, which is a production of sorts.
      - ethbro 11y ago
        Most of the non-tech unemployed people I know would happily trade their leisure time for a paycheck.
  - stellar678 11y ago
    If you engage in any business that requires or benefits from a working relationship with the political system, then employing lots of people is, without a doubt, a positive aspect of your business.
    - savanaly 11y ago
      Good point. I didn't consider that he might have just been speaking about the profitability of his own sector, I had assumed he meant that we as a society should look kindly on solar power for the reason that it employs a lot of people.
lumberjack 11y ago
>4. Solar is expected to reach a load defection point (i.e. cheaper to leave the grid) in most places in the next 10-15 years[4]. How can it be cheaper to leave the grid? Won't energy storage be much cheaper if it is done on scale by buy and selling energy as required and letting utility companies figure out energy storage and load balancing?
- jussij 11y ago
  Here in Australia we have one of the highest per capita uptakes of household solar panels in the world. At some point during the day, most of those households produce excess power and that power is sold back into the grid. But because there is so much power being generated, the householder is only paid a fraction of the equivalent price of extracting an equivalent amount of electricity from the grid. At present those householders have no choice but to put up with that dud deal, as they have no where else to put that excess power. But move on a few years when battery technology starts to take off and battery prices come down, that will change. When that happens, total household electricity costs will be coming down and they will be one very big step closer to being off grid.
  - skrause 11y ago
    I don't know how it works in other countries, but here in Germany you basically have two fees: First there is the "connection fee", so you pay around 5 to 10 dollars monthly just to be connected to the grid even if you use no power. On top of that is the actual usage fee per kWh. I guess when more and more people generate their own power the connection fee will eventually increase while the usage fee decreases. So even if you have an average usage of 0 kWh per month because of solar panels you'll pay the grid just to be your battery to buffer the peaks and give back power at night. And I think that's actually fair. If you don't want that high connection fee you'll need to buy your down battery and disconnect completely.
  - marcosdumay 11y ago
    Big batteries will always be cheaper and more reliable than small ones. There may come a day where the difference is so small to not matter anymore, but people won't disconnect from a competitively priced grid before that. There are plenty of entities consuming energy during the day, it's just a matter of adapting the generating infrastructure. Anyway, and answering lumberjack's question, I'm yet to see a competitively priced grid. It's a natural monopoly, normally maintained by either an expensive government bureaucracy, or a private company whose main goal is to extract big rents. At this environment, I'd expect houses to organize into largish units that share batteries, if the government allows, or just get enough batteries for themselves.
chiph 11y ago
What sort of software? Firmware for the charger-inverter, load scheduling & management, something else?
- jonawesomegreen 11y ago
  The OP's company appears to be: UtilityAPI.com. Some more info about solar tech companies here: https://powerhouse.solar/companies/ https://powerhouse.solar/companies/
mbostleman 11y ago
Point 4: "load deflection", aka "grid parity" sounds good on paper but doesn't reflect the fact that the cost of conventional sources is a moving target controlled by governments and monopolies (not that there's much of a difference). No doubt that solar cost is dropping fast given huge investments in R & D. But the cost of conventional sources can be dropped with the stroke of a pen.
seivan 11y ago
What problems are there that software engineering can help fix? You sorta left us hanging there :)
pyoung 11y ago
Worth mentioning, a major tax credit for US solar installations will expire at the end of 2016.[1] No one knows for sure how this will impact the industry, but before you dump all your money into solar stocks, or quit your day job to start a solar startup, you might want to do some research. The general consensus is that things are going to get pretty crazy over the next year as companies try and get installations done before the tax credit expires. And after that, no one really knows what is going to happen. [1] http://www.seia.org/policy/finance-tax/solar-investment-tax-credit http://www.seia.org/policy/finance-tax/solar-investment-tax-...
bootload 11y ago
@diafygi, what type of problems are need to be solved?

by diafygi 11y ago

AnkhMorporkian 11y ago

I feel point 2 is a bit misleading. That solar count includes all solar manufacturing jobs. Utility companies don't engage in manufacturing, so the comparison doesn't really seem to have any utility, if you'll pardon the horrible pun. If you included all coal, natural gas, oil, and other non-renewable equipment manufacturing, I'm positive they'd beat solar by quite a margin.

savanaly 11y ago
Also, requiring jobs is a downside of something, not an upside. But it seemed like he was trying to plug solar by bragging about how many jobs it would create.
- lumberjack 11y ago
  It's a cost that the businesses and consumers have to deal with but it is not necessarily a cost for society at large.
  - savanaly 11y ago
    It is a cost for society at large. Any workers that are employed in solar are not employed in some other job, so we have to be losing out in production somewhere if we switch our power generation from something that requires fewer workers to something that requires more. Even if the extra workers required to make solar work came exclusively from the ranks of the unemployed or retired, we are still losing the leisure time they had previously been enjoying, which is a production of sorts.
    - ethbro 11y ago
      Most of the non-tech unemployed people I know would happily trade their leisure time for a paycheck.
- stellar678 11y ago
  If you engage in any business that requires or benefits from a working relationship with the political system, then employing lots of people is, without a doubt, a positive aspect of your business.
  - savanaly 11y ago
    Good point. I didn't consider that he might have just been speaking about the profitability of his own sector, I had assumed he meant that we as a society should look kindly on solar power for the reason that it employs a lot of people.

lumberjack 11y ago

>4. Solar is expected to reach a load defection point (i.e. cheaper to leave the grid) in most places in the next 10-15 years[4]. How can it be cheaper to leave the grid? Won't energy storage be much cheaper if it is done on scale by buy and selling energy as required and letting utility companies figure out energy storage and load balancing?

jussij 11y ago
Here in Australia we have one of the highest per capita uptakes of household solar panels in the world. At some point during the day, most of those households produce excess power and that power is sold back into the grid. But because there is so much power being generated, the householder is only paid a fraction of the equivalent price of extracting an equivalent amount of electricity from the grid. At present those householders have no choice but to put up with that dud deal, as they have no where else to put that excess power. But move on a few years when battery technology starts to take off and battery prices come down, that will change. When that happens, total household electricity costs will be coming down and they will be one very big step closer to being off grid.
- skrause 11y ago
  I don't know how it works in other countries, but here in Germany you basically have two fees: First there is the "connection fee", so you pay around 5 to 10 dollars monthly just to be connected to the grid even if you use no power. On top of that is the actual usage fee per kWh. I guess when more and more people generate their own power the connection fee will eventually increase while the usage fee decreases. So even if you have an average usage of 0 kWh per month because of solar panels you'll pay the grid just to be your battery to buffer the peaks and give back power at night. And I think that's actually fair. If you don't want that high connection fee you'll need to buy your down battery and disconnect completely.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  Big batteries will always be cheaper and more reliable than small ones. There may come a day where the difference is so small to not matter anymore, but people won't disconnect from a competitively priced grid before that. There are plenty of entities consuming energy during the day, it's just a matter of adapting the generating infrastructure. Anyway, and answering lumberjack's question, I'm yet to see a competitively priced grid. It's a natural monopoly, normally maintained by either an expensive government bureaucracy, or a private company whose main goal is to extract big rents. At this environment, I'd expect houses to organize into largish units that share batteries, if the government allows, or just get enough batteries for themselves.

chiph 11y ago

What sort of software? Firmware for the charger-inverter, load scheduling & management, something else?

jonawesomegreen 11y ago
The OP's company appears to be: UtilityAPI.com. Some more info about solar tech companies here: https://powerhouse.solar/companies/ https://powerhouse.solar/companies/

mbostleman 11y ago

Point 4: "load deflection", aka "grid parity" sounds good on paper but doesn't reflect the fact that the cost of conventional sources is a moving target controlled by governments and monopolies (not that there's much of a difference). No doubt that solar cost is dropping fast given huge investments in R & D. But the cost of conventional sources can be dropped with the stroke of a pen.

seivan 11y ago

What problems are there that software engineering can help fix? You sorta left us hanging there :)

pyoung 11y ago

Worth mentioning, a major tax credit for US solar installations will expire at the end of 2016.[1] No one knows for sure how this will impact the industry, but before you dump all your money into solar stocks, or quit your day job to start a solar startup, you might want to do some research. The general consensus is that things are going to get pretty crazy over the next year as companies try and get installations done before the tax credit expires. And after that, no one really knows what is going to happen. [1] http://www.seia.org/policy/finance-tax/solar-investment-tax-credit http://www.seia.org/policy/finance-tax/solar-investment-tax-...

bootload 11y ago

@diafygi, what type of problems are need to be solved?