11 ms·

A lot happens

268 points by devnonymous 11y ago

jakejake 11y ago
Wow, super depressing. Don't forget that there's more to this life than writing code, folks.
- AndyKelley 11y ago
  Like what?
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    Are you joking?
    - AndyKelley 11y ago
      No, I'm attempting to prove a point. Indulge me.
      - ZenoArrow 11y ago
        There are many different pursuits that people enjoy, human endeavour is a wide and varied domain. I could tell you what I enjoy, but I doubt that'll give you the answer you're looking for, only you can ever know what you enjoy. However, as you asked me to indulge you, here are a number of non-electronics-based activities that I enjoy: dancing, singing, cycling, sailing, swimming, writing, thinking, stargazing, kissing, playing guitar, watching a campfire, spending time at the seaside. I can go on if you want.
        AndyKelley 11y ago
        Thanks for indulging me. Writing code fits nicely in that list of activities that you enjoy. These are all fine activities. Is there more to life than doing activities that you enjoy? The comment I responded to said: "Don't forget that there's more to this life than writing code, folks." If "writing code" represents "doing activities that you enjoy" then what else is there to life? Life is inherently meaningless, and it's up to us to decide what our lives mean. If someone decides that writing code is what gives their life meaning, then who are you to tell them they are incorrect?
        ZenoArrow 11y ago
        > "If "writing code" represents "doing activities that you enjoy" then what else is there to life?" Writing code is just one activity that it's possible to enjoy. If that's the only thing that someone enjoys then fair enough, but how would someone know it's all they enjoy without trying other things out? > "Life is inherently meaningless, and it's up to us to decide what our lives mean." Yes, we can decide what we want to make of our lives, and whilst this idea can be a bit overwhelming at first, if you can get over that it can feel liberating. I'd also add that that life doesn't have to have a meaning to be worthwhile. Searching for meaning can take our focus away from experience. This story from Margaret Mead helped me understand that: "Last night I had the strangest dream. I was in a laboratory with Dr. Boas and he was talking to me and a group of other people about religion, insisting that life must have a meaning, that man couldn’t live without that. Then he made a mass of jelly-like stuff of the most beautiful blue I had ever seen — and he seemed to be asking us all what to do with it. I remember thinking it was very beautiful but wondering helplessly what it was for. People came and went making absurd suggestions. Somehow Dr. Boas tried to carry them out — but always the people went away angry, or disappointed — and finally after we’d been up all night they had all disappeared and there were just the two of us. He looked at me and said, appealingly “Touch it.” I took some of the astonishingly blue beauty in my hand, and felt with a great thrill that it was living matter. I said “Why it’s life — and that’s enough” — and he looked so pleased that I had found the answer — and said yes “It’s life and that is wonder enough.”" https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/02/25/margaret-mead-meaning-of-life https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/02/25/margaret-mead-meani...
      - jakejake 11y ago
        Not sure what point you could be attempting to prove? That there is nothing more meaningful in this world than writing code?
  - scott_karana 11y ago
    If you're asking that legitimately, not sarcastically, I'm sure we can help you out. :)
    - AndyKelley 11y ago
      Indulge me.
      - scott_karana 11y ago
        > No, I'm attempting to prove a point. Indulge me. No thanks. I was asking genuinely.
GrumpySimon 11y ago
"Jesse" not "Jeese"
- voltagex_ 11y ago
  and known, not know.
  - RussellDussel 11y ago
    And "Python", not "python".
    - devnonymous 11y ago
      Yep, thanks, all fixed ! Surprising how many mistakes one can make in a simple sentence...although, as feeble justification -- I wrote that right after I read the article and was still thinking about some of the stuff. There was a bit of irony though in these corrections -- how we tend to focus on and willing choose to spend energy on the things that don't matter in the long run for things that make us feel good about ourselves.
      - voltagex_ 11y ago
        Ouch! You're correct, it's probably the last article I should be nitpicking on.
      - nkurz 11y ago
        the things that don't matter in the long run Not just the long run! It looks like 'dang' already rewrote it to get rid of all of those words. But at least I'll sleep easier knowing that as a team we were able to fix the mistakes before it was erased. :)
sridca 11y ago
Is love worth it? Interacting with people, playing with children, etc. can be enjoyable activities. Not saying that we should withdraw from it, but as intelligent people can we take a step back and question love itself, especially as it causes so much pain? Instead of loving and getting heart broken when the associated people depart from one's lives, why not simply enjoy the company of people (without love, trust and the concomitant sadness, resentment) and continue that enjoyment whenever alone time is in order (short-term or long-term)? More curiously - why are people reluctant to question love itself? (it is always one person or the other's fault, but never love's fault; why?).
- johnny99 11y ago
  Because we're not Vulcans? People just love, it's a thing that human animals do. Questioning love is like questioning your elbows, or that you sneeze. It's part of being human.
  - peterwwillis 11y ago
    You can "question" your emotions, though there's a better term for it: self-reflection. It's necessary in order to build Emotional Intelligence.
  - sridca 11y ago
    By polarizing your options -- making the "software" feeling of love as factual as the "hardware" bodily part, and equating the absence of love to an imagined sci-fi notion (an apparently emotionless being) -- you have effectively shutdown any inquiry into love itself.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      Note that Vulcans from Star Trek universe actually felt emotions - they experienced them so strongly that it pushed them into perpetual state of savagery; they lifted themselves up as a civilization when they learned a philosophy and a training regimen that let them grab complete control over their emotions and keep them in check.
DonSchuler 11y ago
It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiam, ambition, pride, fear ... it happens to most of us all the time. Luckily I belong to the people who run out of energy fast. Therefore I need to stop and break and make a reality check for myself regularly. I'm still driven by the ambition to achieve greatness (change the world, become famous, buy myself an island). We need to use our brains first to understand how wrong this motivation is, then to build great applications. Edit: In my Python days I was a great admirerer of Jesse. The times he created the multiprocessing module. I hope he will get back on his feet.
- throwawaythisis 11y ago
  > It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm, ambition, pride, fear ... it happens to most of us all the time. Luckily I belong to the people who run out of energy fast. Therefore I need to stop and break and make a reality check for myself regularly. I recognize myself in the behavior that the writer describes. Going all-in on too many things, and all the negative consequences that result from that. The feeling I felt as I read the article wasn't just recognition; it was envy. Because I am actually one of those people who run out of energy fast, my 'all-in' has not even resulted in a partner, kids, 'prominence' in any community, etc. Basically, I am in much of the same place as the author, for the same reasons (to the degree that I can tell from one article, of course), except that I have nothing to show for it. The best I can say about that, perhaps, is that by having less to 'show for it' I also have less to mess up or lose. Small comfort. Discovering that I also belong to the people that run out of energy fast, and that even operating at 'normal speed' can be disastrous for me in very particular contexts is a good thing though. If I learn to make these 'reality checks' regularly, I will most certainly be happier and more grounded, and in fact I'm pretty confident I'll even be able to 'achieve things' in the long run. And that's a ray of hope, however small and however far off its source seems. Slow and steady wins the race, I think, applies very much to me. My primary challenge is that I find it really, really difficult to 'make reality checks'. I have recently been diagnosed with (mild) autism, and apparently this inability is pretty typical. How do you keep yourself from either going too much all-in, or hiding from the world too much, when much of the time you're barely aware of whether you're doing one or the other? How do you remind yourself to do a reality check when you forget about the reminder, because your brain is stuck on some random obsession? Sometimes I feel that I live in a world that is fundamentally not suited to me. I don't think of eating unless someone else starts eating, but because I live alone in a big city with some flatmates I barely know, I am often not triggered. I don't think of leaving the house to socialize because there is no clear pattern or cohesive structure to my social world. It's all opt-in and based on personal initiative, mostly. I sometimes struggle doing work as a freelance developer, because my brain gets stuck in a loop and I just pace my room talking to myself. Or, the other way around, I work and work at the expense of everything else and end up in a pretty bad place because of this. It made me understand why weekends and vacations are important. If only I could remember this. I've tried for years. I sometimes miss the period in my life where external structures provided me with a socialization pattern (student org.), where deadlines and tests forced me in some kind of rhythm, or, longer ago, where living with my family provided me with the triggers I need to engage in normal, healthy behavior (eat well, sleep regularly, get outside, talk to people, sit with people not talking, emotional 'cleanup' by talking to parents/siblings, etc). Sorry about this reply getting off track. It sort of got away from me...
jeffjose 11y ago
Ha. As I was reading the Carina announcement [1] yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised to see Jesse Noller as its author and I wondered to myself what happened to him. He was everywhere, couple of years back and I had no idea that you were going through pain. As a fellow pythonista from far away land, thanks for everything you've done for python. And good to have you back. [1]: https://getcarina.com/blog/announcing-carina/ https://getcarina.com/blog/announcing-carina/
parennoob 11y ago
Thanks to Jesse for having the courage to share this. Long and protracted arguments online can give your mental fatigue in a way that in-person ones cannot. The fact that this can happen to such a prolific Python contributor is probably a great reminder for me to step away from the keyboard more often. In fact, I think I'll do that right now :)
peterwwillis 11y ago
Most useful takeaway from this post: > Just saying things “will be ok” isn’t enough, I’ve got to start making things better.
neom 11y ago
I've been through this three times in my life, each time it hits me harder and harder, I'm going through it again right now in fact, my story could read almost identically to this one. I often wonder if it's the crux of ambition. I'm not one for self help books or any of that bullshit, however, The 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth by John C. Maxwell is an excellent read on this subject. Finding your purpose is hard, really really hard, I firmly believe some never really do.
- hardwaresofton 11y ago
  While I don't intend to be rude, not sure how else I could say this -- you're not ruining other people's lives all three times right? There are a lot of I's and my's in your comment which makes me wonder how much empathy you're employing... Also, have you tried to stop? Has it occurred 3 times unintentionally and this article was the impetus you needed to make a change? [EDIT] - lightened wording around the last few questions, comments have noted that I was being too coarse, and ironically unempathetic
  - autoreleasepool 11y ago
    > makes me wonder how much empathy you're employing... Also, do you... want to stop? Has it occurred 3 time unintentionally and you just can't stop? You really don't see the irony in questioning his capacity for empathy while minimizing his hardships and suggesting they're likely all his fault?
    - hardwaresofton 11y ago
      Are any of the answers to those questions obvious upon reading the original comment? I asked because those points weren't clear when reading the original comment -- he notes it like it's a terrible thing but I was wondering how it could happen 3 times, when OP had it happen once and had so many undesirable things happen. I must confess I haven't had something like this happen to me at this level, so maybe my capability of empathy is diminished, but the questions do not imply that it's entirely/likely his/her fault, outside of the fact that you generally can't get into a situation like this without some action on your part. This is precisely why OP is trying to take steps to change his behavior. Maybe what I should have asked was: "Care to share more?" Without the pointed questions.
hardwaresofton 11y ago
Why doesn't OP move to Boston? If your daughters are the most important thing in your life, then moving across the US to be close to them seems like a no-brainer. One of the great thing about tech is that it's pretty easy to switch jobs/work remotely/branch off and do your own thing. Maybe there were some reasons that couldn't be stated in the article, and maybe I'm being callous, if so, I apologize. Also, if OP was considering that but wanted to wait till he got a better grip on himself, that's fine too.
- gtaylor 11y ago
  It's always easy to say this sort of thing as an un-invested third party, but it's not super constructive. I'm sure Jesse considered it before choosing not to.
  - voltagex_ 11y ago
    Reading into it a little bit I think landing the Rackspace gig was a Really Big Deal. I know it would be for me.
  - hardwaresofton 11y ago
    I can definitely see that it's not super constructive, but the article presented only two choices (and explained why neither were great), I found this choice conspicuously missing and wanted to ask, honestly hoping OP would read it...
    - wpietri 11y ago
      Here you are valuing your desire to know something above the potential impact on him. It's thoughtless. Here the guy pours his heart out, and specifically writes: > However, “community” is not the gift that keeps on giving, it is the gift that keeps on taking and taking and taking. If you don’t set clear and absolute boundaries, it will drain you dry and move on. Your comment here is exactly that sort of taking.
- jMyles 11y ago
  I got the impression that an unspoken subtext of Jesse's essay was that, in the community he's describing, people always think they have the right answer (instead of considering that being humane is more important than being seen as an expert - cue the guy calling him out about PyCon). It looks like your comment does exactly that again. So, although I think you meant well, your comment is indeed callous as I read it.
martin_ 11y ago
Great thought provoking read. Did you say "Hi" to anyone in the coffee shop?
adamsea 11y ago
Success isn't what it looks like. Meaning, the image of success is not true success (personally meaningful success), and true personally meaningful success doesn't look like the oft-projected successful image. It takes real effort to figure that stuff out.
AlexEatsKittens 11y ago
Wow. That is an intensely personal, and really thought provoking, post. I happen to be going through something startlingly similar, so this hit home pretty thoroughly. I wonder if this is more common in our industry than in others. It feels like it is incredibly easy to get wrapped up in tech and, as Jesse noted, it seems like it is happy to take everything you're willing to give.
s4chin 11y ago
Wow. This was touching and very intense. As a student, this definitely goes into my diary for the future.
jMyles 11y ago
Yeah, as others have said: thanks for everything Jesse. I regret that it took this outpouring - which is wonderful and important and super brave of you - for us all to remember to say thanks. I told a story at PyCon 2014 Storytelling about a job that I did over the course of 6 months wherein the client was a bit abusive and I brought it home and destroyed a relationship with a really cool lover. It's really good for us all to seriously talk about this stuff. Hope to see you in Portland buddy.
- jschwartzi 11y ago
  Something that's never taught is how to deal with emotions in constructive ways. At least, I don't know who I was supposed to learn it from. I think a lot of us carry emotional turmoil with us that boils over in unrelated situations.
dudereally 11y ago
For God's sake, man, move to your kids. Jobs are everywhere.
ThrustVectoring 11y ago
For anyone who's into Constructive Developmental Theory (In Over Our Heads, by Kegan), this is a classic case of why people go through the "adult"-ing process of generalizing over relationships. Being all-in emotionally, being unable to prioritize work and family and personal ambition, not having values that he's proud of, not setting boundaries - it's all part of a bigger problem that so many people are going through. Emotional maturity and personal grown doesn't stop being important when you turn 18 or 22 or even 30.
- davidp 11y ago
  Or even 40; I assume even 50 and beyond, but I haven't been there yet. If we stop growing, we start dying.
aryehof 11y ago
Hi Jesse, I'm Aryeh. Perhaps one place to start is to forgive yourself and start afresh. Consider the past over, finished and done. A new "you" if you will, not the one you were before. All that matters now is what you "DO", not what you think or believe. Smile, don't judge others, do what is good and right, and say only good things of others. This is the human challenge and journey. If you want, say "hi" to me at aryehof at gmail anytime!
sugarcube 11y ago
OP's wife also seems selfish for moving away with the kids.
- dnoller13 11y ago
  This is beautiful, truly thank you for your judgement. While it is none of anyone's business. This was an AMICABLE decision both Jesse and I came to. MA is the girls home. We moved to TX as a thought things could get better, new job that was supposed to give us our life together back. The girls wanted to be home, near family, near friends so they could heal. Jesse saw their pain and mine.. I suppose caring for children and doing what they need is selfish. Then I am very selfish to give my children what they need. This context-missing statement is the epitome of what Jesse always despised about the internet.
- jnoller 11y ago
  From my ex, and good friend whose account got mod-flagged for unknown reasons: "" This is beautiful, truly thank you for your judgement. While it is none of anyone's business. This was an AMICABLE decision both Jesse and I came to. MA is the girls home. We moved to TX as a thought things could get better, new job that was supposed to give us our life together back. The girls wanted to be home, near family, near friends so they could heal. Jesse saw their pain and mine.. I suppose caring for children and doing what they need is selfish. Then I am very selfish to give my children what they need. This context-missing statement is the epitome of what Jesse always despised about the internet.""
  - sugarcube 11y ago
    Since the context was missing, don't take it so personal. It wasn't clear that the kids originally grew up in that far away place. All I said is "it sounds xyz", it's not an eternal judgment.
    - rwallace 11y ago
      The problem is that words like 'selfish' are personal; that's precisely their meaning. It's one thing to say 'don't take it so personal' in a technical discussion where it should be clear to all participants that e.g. pointing out a bug in someone's code is not a personal thing, but if you're going to make remarks on topics that are personal rather than technical, you should either phrase them more tactfully, or else stick to using the Internet for technical discussions.
wiz21c 11y ago
"It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm, ambition, pride, fear" ahahahahh. That's so immature... You have 24hours in a day, decide how you allocate them. You'll soon realize that there's a choice to make. Since we're coder, we need time to achieve. So it's dead simple : * full time on code and you'll achieve => hapiness * full time on family and you'll feel right => hapiness * 50/50 and you'll have none of them and just have a basically I'm-not-extraordinary life It always blows me away how many people refuse to see that this choice is inescapable and that it implies abandpnning a bit of yourself to keep in touch with humanity (i.e. friends, wife, children).
- jacinda 11y ago
  This is like saying to people who have procrastination issues (or any addictive, sub-optimal behavior pattern, really) that they should just make a different choice and not put things off. The real issues are subconscious and take a lot of time and effort to fix. Knowing something is different from being able to consistently execute on it.
- notacoward 11y ago
  What I think you're missing here is the role of ambition. Full time on coding might make some people happy. That can happen if you only care about coding as an activity, and not about reaching specific goals. It can also happen if your goals fit within the amount of coding you can do individually in whatever milieu you're doing it. What if the thing you want to do, the software you want to create, requires more than that? Then you have to pull together a team, which brings in a whole bunch of complexity and loss of control. It can be awesome, or it can be draining and frustrating. Sometimes it's both. On the flip side, "full time at home" isn't an option for many (probably most) people who'd be reading your comment or mine. Somebody has to make some money, not for its own sake but to reach family goals - housing of a certain quality, schools, sports or hobbies, whatever. Then there's a time commitment on top of that. It's a lot with one kid, it's more with two or three, it's far more if any of them or ill or troubled or disabled. For many people, just having to choose is frustrating. People want to have a successful career and a good family life and time for themselves, and they just can't have all of them. Giving up on "having it all" is really really hard, and it's not immature. In fact it's the characteristic struggle of mature people, leading to burnout and mid-life crises. It's the immature, with fewer commitments and simpler goals, who seem least affected. That's (part of) why I think your "that's immature" is itself the most immature thing I've ever seen on HN. It shows a startling lack of empathy for people going through something you apparently never have. I hope you are young, because if you can still say such a thing from the vantage of experience that's even more pathetic. The struggle is real, and being laughed at or condescended to as you go through it doesn't exactly help. It's part of what Jesse was warning about.
notacoward 11y ago
I can't say I've been there, but I've certainly been to the same city. It's why I now work part time. We don't achieve anything without goals and aspirations, but it's easy to get crushed under the weight of too many. Jesse is a fantastically talented guy, and - in one of life's little perverse twists - that's exactly what makes him vulnerable. Those who are most gifted and most able tend to develop the highest expectations, both internally and on behalf of those they love. It's tough to feel like you've fallen short, even when you realize the goal was unrealistic or that others would have been happier for you not to try. It takes a real adult to engage with these issues, and something more to share the process with the world as Jesse has done. That's courage right there. I doubt that Jesse will ever read this. I sure wouldn't if I were in his position, because this is exactly the kind of non-supportive community he was talking about. Nonetheless, I'll say I'm glad to see he's moving forward once more, still kicking ass even when his legs are sore. Good to have you back, dude.
- jnoller 11y ago
  I did. And thank you - you hit the nail on the head with "It's tough to feel like you've fallen short, even when you realize the goal was unrealistic or that others would have been happier for you not to try." As for the rest, simply thank you - and yeah, I shouldn't be reading the comments ;)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
cousin_it 11y ago
Wait, hang on, what's the backstory here? Was Jesse being harassed over Adria Richards? Dusty's blog says they were getting threatening phone calls and such.
scorpion032 11y ago
Many people often try to optimise for the world view of themselves, rather than their own experience. Instead, when one starts to optimise for ones own experience, the idea of falling short of expectations doesn't arise. Life is lived in ones own experience and each person to himself is the most important entity. Going through mental suffering is very hard, unnecessary and I hope everyone that does go through it, comes out of it. I wonder if this is the same Jesse I knew of. So much energy, so much capability to do so many things.

A lot happens

268 points by devnonymous 11y ago

jakejake 11y ago

Wow, super depressing. Don't forget that there's more to this life than writing code, folks.

AndyKelley 11y ago
Like what?
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Are you joking?
  - AndyKelley 11y ago
    No, I'm attempting to prove a point. Indulge me.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      There are many different pursuits that people enjoy, human endeavour is a wide and varied domain. I could tell you what I enjoy, but I doubt that'll give you the answer you're looking for, only you can ever know what you enjoy. However, as you asked me to indulge you, here are a number of non-electronics-based activities that I enjoy: dancing, singing, cycling, sailing, swimming, writing, thinking, stargazing, kissing, playing guitar, watching a campfire, spending time at the seaside. I can go on if you want.
      - AndyKelley 11y ago
        Thanks for indulging me. Writing code fits nicely in that list of activities that you enjoy. These are all fine activities. Is there more to life than doing activities that you enjoy? The comment I responded to said: "Don't forget that there's more to this life than writing code, folks." If "writing code" represents "doing activities that you enjoy" then what else is there to life? Life is inherently meaningless, and it's up to us to decide what our lives mean. If someone decides that writing code is what gives their life meaning, then who are you to tell them they are incorrect?
        ZenoArrow 11y ago
        > "If "writing code" represents "doing activities that you enjoy" then what else is there to life?" Writing code is just one activity that it's possible to enjoy. If that's the only thing that someone enjoys then fair enough, but how would someone know it's all they enjoy without trying other things out? > "Life is inherently meaningless, and it's up to us to decide what our lives mean." Yes, we can decide what we want to make of our lives, and whilst this idea can be a bit overwhelming at first, if you can get over that it can feel liberating. I'd also add that that life doesn't have to have a meaning to be worthwhile. Searching for meaning can take our focus away from experience. This story from Margaret Mead helped me understand that: "Last night I had the strangest dream. I was in a laboratory with Dr. Boas and he was talking to me and a group of other people about religion, insisting that life must have a meaning, that man couldn’t live without that. Then he made a mass of jelly-like stuff of the most beautiful blue I had ever seen — and he seemed to be asking us all what to do with it. I remember thinking it was very beautiful but wondering helplessly what it was for. People came and went making absurd suggestions. Somehow Dr. Boas tried to carry them out — but always the people went away angry, or disappointed — and finally after we’d been up all night they had all disappeared and there were just the two of us. He looked at me and said, appealingly “Touch it.” I took some of the astonishingly blue beauty in my hand, and felt with a great thrill that it was living matter. I said “Why it’s life — and that’s enough” — and he looked so pleased that I had found the answer — and said yes “It’s life and that is wonder enough.”" https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/02/25/margaret-mead-meaning-of-life https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/02/25/margaret-mead-meani...
    - jakejake 11y ago
      Not sure what point you could be attempting to prove? That there is nothing more meaningful in this world than writing code?
- scott_karana 11y ago
  If you're asking that legitimately, not sarcastically, I'm sure we can help you out. :)
  - AndyKelley 11y ago
    Indulge me.
    - scott_karana 11y ago
      > No, I'm attempting to prove a point. Indulge me. No thanks. I was asking genuinely.

GrumpySimon 11y ago

"Jesse" not "Jeese"

voltagex_ 11y ago
and known, not know.
- RussellDussel 11y ago
  And "Python", not "python".
  - devnonymous 11y ago
    Yep, thanks, all fixed ! Surprising how many mistakes one can make in a simple sentence...although, as feeble justification -- I wrote that right after I read the article and was still thinking about some of the stuff. There was a bit of irony though in these corrections -- how we tend to focus on and willing choose to spend energy on the things that don't matter in the long run for things that make us feel good about ourselves.
    - voltagex_ 11y ago
      Ouch! You're correct, it's probably the last article I should be nitpicking on.
    - nkurz 11y ago
      the things that don't matter in the long run Not just the long run! It looks like 'dang' already rewrote it to get rid of all of those words. But at least I'll sleep easier knowing that as a team we were able to fix the mistakes before it was erased. :)

sridca 11y ago

Is love worth it? Interacting with people, playing with children, etc. can be enjoyable activities. Not saying that we should withdraw from it, but as intelligent people can we take a step back and question love itself, especially as it causes so much pain? Instead of loving and getting heart broken when the associated people depart from one's lives, why not simply enjoy the company of people (without love, trust and the concomitant sadness, resentment) and continue that enjoyment whenever alone time is in order (short-term or long-term)? More curiously - why are people reluctant to question love itself? (it is always one person or the other's fault, but never love's fault; why?).

johnny99 11y ago
Because we're not Vulcans? People just love, it's a thing that human animals do. Questioning love is like questioning your elbows, or that you sneeze. It's part of being human.
- peterwwillis 11y ago
  You can "question" your emotions, though there's a better term for it: self-reflection. It's necessary in order to build Emotional Intelligence.
- sridca 11y ago
  By polarizing your options -- making the "software" feeling of love as factual as the "hardware" bodily part, and equating the absence of love to an imagined sci-fi notion (an apparently emotionless being) -- you have effectively shutdown any inquiry into love itself.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Note that Vulcans from Star Trek universe actually felt emotions - they experienced them so strongly that it pushed them into perpetual state of savagery; they lifted themselves up as a civilization when they learned a philosophy and a training regimen that let them grab complete control over their emotions and keep them in check.

DonSchuler 11y ago

It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiam, ambition, pride, fear ... it happens to most of us all the time. Luckily I belong to the people who run out of energy fast. Therefore I need to stop and break and make a reality check for myself regularly. I'm still driven by the ambition to achieve greatness (change the world, become famous, buy myself an island). We need to use our brains first to understand how wrong this motivation is, then to build great applications. Edit: In my Python days I was a great admirerer of Jesse. The times he created the multiprocessing module. I hope he will get back on his feet.

throwawaythisis 11y ago
> It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm, ambition, pride, fear ... it happens to most of us all the time. Luckily I belong to the people who run out of energy fast. Therefore I need to stop and break and make a reality check for myself regularly. I recognize myself in the behavior that the writer describes. Going all-in on too many things, and all the negative consequences that result from that. The feeling I felt as I read the article wasn't just recognition; it was envy. Because I am actually one of those people who run out of energy fast, my 'all-in' has not even resulted in a partner, kids, 'prominence' in any community, etc. Basically, I am in much of the same place as the author, for the same reasons (to the degree that I can tell from one article, of course), except that I have nothing to show for it. The best I can say about that, perhaps, is that by having less to 'show for it' I also have less to mess up or lose. Small comfort. Discovering that I also belong to the people that run out of energy fast, and that even operating at 'normal speed' can be disastrous for me in very particular contexts is a good thing though. If I learn to make these 'reality checks' regularly, I will most certainly be happier and more grounded, and in fact I'm pretty confident I'll even be able to 'achieve things' in the long run. And that's a ray of hope, however small and however far off its source seems. Slow and steady wins the race, I think, applies very much to me. My primary challenge is that I find it really, really difficult to 'make reality checks'. I have recently been diagnosed with (mild) autism, and apparently this inability is pretty typical. How do you keep yourself from either going too much all-in, or hiding from the world too much, when much of the time you're barely aware of whether you're doing one or the other? How do you remind yourself to do a reality check when you forget about the reminder, because your brain is stuck on some random obsession? Sometimes I feel that I live in a world that is fundamentally not suited to me. I don't think of eating unless someone else starts eating, but because I live alone in a big city with some flatmates I barely know, I am often not triggered. I don't think of leaving the house to socialize because there is no clear pattern or cohesive structure to my social world. It's all opt-in and based on personal initiative, mostly. I sometimes struggle doing work as a freelance developer, because my brain gets stuck in a loop and I just pace my room talking to myself. Or, the other way around, I work and work at the expense of everything else and end up in a pretty bad place because of this. It made me understand why weekends and vacations are important. If only I could remember this. I've tried for years. I sometimes miss the period in my life where external structures provided me with a socialization pattern (student org.), where deadlines and tests forced me in some kind of rhythm, or, longer ago, where living with my family provided me with the triggers I need to engage in normal, healthy behavior (eat well, sleep regularly, get outside, talk to people, sit with people not talking, emotional 'cleanup' by talking to parents/siblings, etc). Sorry about this reply getting off track. It sort of got away from me...

jeffjose 11y ago

Ha. As I was reading the Carina announcement [1] yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised to see Jesse Noller as its author and I wondered to myself what happened to him. He was everywhere, couple of years back and I had no idea that you were going through pain. As a fellow pythonista from far away land, thanks for everything you've done for python. And good to have you back. [1]: https://getcarina.com/blog/announcing-carina/ https://getcarina.com/blog/announcing-carina/

parennoob 11y ago

Thanks to Jesse for having the courage to share this. Long and protracted arguments online can give your mental fatigue in a way that in-person ones cannot. The fact that this can happen to such a prolific Python contributor is probably a great reminder for me to step away from the keyboard more often. In fact, I think I'll do that right now :)

peterwwillis 11y ago

Most useful takeaway from this post: > Just saying things “will be ok” isn’t enough, I’ve got to start making things better.

neom 11y ago

I've been through this three times in my life, each time it hits me harder and harder, I'm going through it again right now in fact, my story could read almost identically to this one. I often wonder if it's the crux of ambition. I'm not one for self help books or any of that bullshit, however, The 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth by John C. Maxwell is an excellent read on this subject. Finding your purpose is hard, really really hard, I firmly believe some never really do.

hardwaresofton 11y ago
While I don't intend to be rude, not sure how else I could say this -- you're not ruining other people's lives all three times right? There are a lot of I's and my's in your comment which makes me wonder how much empathy you're employing... Also, have you tried to stop? Has it occurred 3 times unintentionally and this article was the impetus you needed to make a change? [EDIT] - lightened wording around the last few questions, comments have noted that I was being too coarse, and ironically unempathetic
- autoreleasepool 11y ago
  > makes me wonder how much empathy you're employing... Also, do you... want to stop? Has it occurred 3 time unintentionally and you just can't stop? You really don't see the irony in questioning his capacity for empathy while minimizing his hardships and suggesting they're likely all his fault?
  - hardwaresofton 11y ago
    Are any of the answers to those questions obvious upon reading the original comment? I asked because those points weren't clear when reading the original comment -- he notes it like it's a terrible thing but I was wondering how it could happen 3 times, when OP had it happen once and had so many undesirable things happen. I must confess I haven't had something like this happen to me at this level, so maybe my capability of empathy is diminished, but the questions do not imply that it's entirely/likely his/her fault, outside of the fact that you generally can't get into a situation like this without some action on your part. This is precisely why OP is trying to take steps to change his behavior. Maybe what I should have asked was: "Care to share more?" Without the pointed questions.

hardwaresofton 11y ago

Why doesn't OP move to Boston? If your daughters are the most important thing in your life, then moving across the US to be close to them seems like a no-brainer. One of the great thing about tech is that it's pretty easy to switch jobs/work remotely/branch off and do your own thing. Maybe there were some reasons that couldn't be stated in the article, and maybe I'm being callous, if so, I apologize. Also, if OP was considering that but wanted to wait till he got a better grip on himself, that's fine too.

gtaylor 11y ago
It's always easy to say this sort of thing as an un-invested third party, but it's not super constructive. I'm sure Jesse considered it before choosing not to.
- voltagex_ 11y ago
  Reading into it a little bit I think landing the Rackspace gig was a Really Big Deal. I know it would be for me.
- hardwaresofton 11y ago
  I can definitely see that it's not super constructive, but the article presented only two choices (and explained why neither were great), I found this choice conspicuously missing and wanted to ask, honestly hoping OP would read it...
  - wpietri 11y ago
    Here you are valuing your desire to know something above the potential impact on him. It's thoughtless. Here the guy pours his heart out, and specifically writes: > However, “community” is not the gift that keeps on giving, it is the gift that keeps on taking and taking and taking. If you don’t set clear and absolute boundaries, it will drain you dry and move on. Your comment here is exactly that sort of taking.
jMyles 11y ago
I got the impression that an unspoken subtext of Jesse's essay was that, in the community he's describing, people always think they have the right answer (instead of considering that being humane is more important than being seen as an expert - cue the guy calling him out about PyCon). It looks like your comment does exactly that again. So, although I think you meant well, your comment is indeed callous as I read it.

martin_ 11y ago

Great thought provoking read. Did you say "Hi" to anyone in the coffee shop?

adamsea 11y ago

Success isn't what it looks like. Meaning, the image of success is not true success (personally meaningful success), and true personally meaningful success doesn't look like the oft-projected successful image. It takes real effort to figure that stuff out.

AlexEatsKittens 11y ago

Wow. That is an intensely personal, and really thought provoking, post. I happen to be going through something startlingly similar, so this hit home pretty thoroughly. I wonder if this is more common in our industry than in others. It feels like it is incredibly easy to get wrapped up in tech and, as Jesse noted, it seems like it is happy to take everything you're willing to give.

s4chin 11y ago

Wow. This was touching and very intense. As a student, this definitely goes into my diary for the future.

jMyles 11y ago

Yeah, as others have said: thanks for everything Jesse. I regret that it took this outpouring - which is wonderful and important and super brave of you - for us all to remember to say thanks. I told a story at PyCon 2014 Storytelling about a job that I did over the course of 6 months wherein the client was a bit abusive and I brought it home and destroyed a relationship with a really cool lover. It's really good for us all to seriously talk about this stuff. Hope to see you in Portland buddy.

jschwartzi 11y ago
Something that's never taught is how to deal with emotions in constructive ways. At least, I don't know who I was supposed to learn it from. I think a lot of us carry emotional turmoil with us that boils over in unrelated situations.

dudereally 11y ago

For God's sake, man, move to your kids. Jobs are everywhere.

ThrustVectoring 11y ago

For anyone who's into Constructive Developmental Theory (In Over Our Heads, by Kegan), this is a classic case of why people go through the "adult"-ing process of generalizing over relationships. Being all-in emotionally, being unable to prioritize work and family and personal ambition, not having values that he's proud of, not setting boundaries - it's all part of a bigger problem that so many people are going through. Emotional maturity and personal grown doesn't stop being important when you turn 18 or 22 or even 30.

davidp 11y ago
Or even 40; I assume even 50 and beyond, but I haven't been there yet. If we stop growing, we start dying.

aryehof 11y ago

Hi Jesse, I'm Aryeh. Perhaps one place to start is to forgive yourself and start afresh. Consider the past over, finished and done. A new "you" if you will, not the one you were before. All that matters now is what you "DO", not what you think or believe. Smile, don't judge others, do what is good and right, and say only good things of others. This is the human challenge and journey. If you want, say "hi" to me at aryehof at gmail anytime!

sugarcube 11y ago

OP's wife also seems selfish for moving away with the kids.

dnoller13 11y ago
This is beautiful, truly thank you for your judgement. While it is none of anyone's business. This was an AMICABLE decision both Jesse and I came to. MA is the girls home. We moved to TX as a thought things could get better, new job that was supposed to give us our life together back. The girls wanted to be home, near family, near friends so they could heal. Jesse saw their pain and mine.. I suppose caring for children and doing what they need is selfish. Then I am very selfish to give my children what they need. This context-missing statement is the epitome of what Jesse always despised about the internet.
jnoller 11y ago
From my ex, and good friend whose account got mod-flagged for unknown reasons: "" This is beautiful, truly thank you for your judgement. While it is none of anyone's business. This was an AMICABLE decision both Jesse and I came to. MA is the girls home. We moved to TX as a thought things could get better, new job that was supposed to give us our life together back. The girls wanted to be home, near family, near friends so they could heal. Jesse saw their pain and mine.. I suppose caring for children and doing what they need is selfish. Then I am very selfish to give my children what they need. This context-missing statement is the epitome of what Jesse always despised about the internet.""
- sugarcube 11y ago
  Since the context was missing, don't take it so personal. It wasn't clear that the kids originally grew up in that far away place. All I said is "it sounds xyz", it's not an eternal judgment.
  - rwallace 11y ago
    The problem is that words like 'selfish' are personal; that's precisely their meaning. It's one thing to say 'don't take it so personal' in a technical discussion where it should be clear to all participants that e.g. pointing out a bug in someone's code is not a personal thing, but if you're going to make remarks on topics that are personal rather than technical, you should either phrase them more tactfully, or else stick to using the Internet for technical discussions.

wiz21c 11y ago

"It's so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm, ambition, pride, fear" ahahahahh. That's so immature... You have 24hours in a day, decide how you allocate them. You'll soon realize that there's a choice to make. Since we're coder, we need time to achieve. So it's dead simple : * full time on code and you'll achieve => hapiness * full time on family and you'll feel right => hapiness * 50/50 and you'll have none of them and just have a basically I'm-not-extraordinary life It always blows me away how many people refuse to see that this choice is inescapable and that it implies abandpnning a bit of yourself to keep in touch with humanity (i.e. friends, wife, children).

jacinda 11y ago
This is like saying to people who have procrastination issues (or any addictive, sub-optimal behavior pattern, really) that they should just make a different choice and not put things off. The real issues are subconscious and take a lot of time and effort to fix. Knowing something is different from being able to consistently execute on it.
notacoward 11y ago
What I think you're missing here is the role of ambition. Full time on coding might make some people happy. That can happen if you only care about coding as an activity, and not about reaching specific goals. It can also happen if your goals fit within the amount of coding you can do individually in whatever milieu you're doing it. What if the thing you want to do, the software you want to create, requires more than that? Then you have to pull together a team, which brings in a whole bunch of complexity and loss of control. It can be awesome, or it can be draining and frustrating. Sometimes it's both. On the flip side, "full time at home" isn't an option for many (probably most) people who'd be reading your comment or mine. Somebody has to make some money, not for its own sake but to reach family goals - housing of a certain quality, schools, sports or hobbies, whatever. Then there's a time commitment on top of that. It's a lot with one kid, it's more with two or three, it's far more if any of them or ill or troubled or disabled. For many people, just having to choose is frustrating. People want to have a successful career and a good family life and time for themselves, and they just can't have all of them. Giving up on "having it all" is really really hard, and it's not immature. In fact it's the characteristic struggle of mature people, leading to burnout and mid-life crises. It's the immature, with fewer commitments and simpler goals, who seem least affected. That's (part of) why I think your "that's immature" is itself the most immature thing I've ever seen on HN. It shows a startling lack of empathy for people going through something you apparently never have. I hope you are young, because if you can still say such a thing from the vantage of experience that's even more pathetic. The struggle is real, and being laughed at or condescended to as you go through it doesn't exactly help. It's part of what Jesse was warning about.

notacoward 11y ago

I can't say I've been there, but I've certainly been to the same city. It's why I now work part time. We don't achieve anything without goals and aspirations, but it's easy to get crushed under the weight of too many. Jesse is a fantastically talented guy, and - in one of life's little perverse twists - that's exactly what makes him vulnerable. Those who are most gifted and most able tend to develop the highest expectations, both internally and on behalf of those they love. It's tough to feel like you've fallen short, even when you realize the goal was unrealistic or that others would have been happier for you not to try. It takes a real adult to engage with these issues, and something more to share the process with the world as Jesse has done. That's courage right there. I doubt that Jesse will ever read this. I sure wouldn't if I were in his position, because this is exactly the kind of non-supportive community he was talking about. Nonetheless, I'll say I'm glad to see he's moving forward once more, still kicking ass even when his legs are sore. Good to have you back, dude.

jnoller 11y ago
I did. And thank you - you hit the nail on the head with "It's tough to feel like you've fallen short, even when you realize the goal was unrealistic or that others would have been happier for you not to try." As for the rest, simply thank you - and yeah, I shouldn't be reading the comments ;)

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cousin_it 11y ago

Wait, hang on, what's the backstory here? Was Jesse being harassed over Adria Richards? Dusty's blog says they were getting threatening phone calls and such.

scorpion032 11y ago

Many people often try to optimise for the world view of themselves, rather than their own experience. Instead, when one starts to optimise for ones own experience, the idea of falling short of expectations doesn't arise. Life is lived in ones own experience and each person to himself is the most important entity. Going through mental suffering is very hard, unnecessary and I hope everyone that does go through it, comes out of it. I wonder if this is the same Jesse I knew of. So much energy, so much capability to do so many things.