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And now I know why so many fine artists can't find work unless it is purely original work (a highly volatile market). I am saddened deeply that even art has deg

And now I know why so many fine artists can't find work unless it is purely original work (a highly volatile market). I am saddened deeply that even art has degraded to this. if you want a print, buy a print from a printing machine. You want an oil painting? Hire or barter with a local artist to do so. I can't even. I just can't even.

nkrisc 11y ago
Aside from respecting geopolitical borders and nationalistic allegiance, why should I value a local artist any more than an artist in China? Is the Chinese artist somehow lesser than the local artist?
- chrischen 11y ago
  Yep. Even The Simpsons outsources lower-level animation to South Korea.
- zeroecco 11y ago
  is synthetic vanilla `less than` real vanilla? People are not the problem here, the product is. It lacks in the POINT of art. Art is like going to a concert, an expression of the human condition. Why go if you can listen to a perfect mix of it at home? How you get a painting is part of the reason you get the painting at all. The story behind it is just as much of the point as the piece itself. To be clear: If you are in China, buy art from a Chinese artist. If you are in Brazil, buy art from a Brazilian artist.
  - genericone 11y ago
    I think the downvotes are coming from the following interpretation of your comment: No true Artsman buys art internationally.
    - zeroecco 11y ago
      likely. but that wasn't my intent.
  - joosters 11y ago
    Are you really saying that people buying these pictures are buying it for the wrong reason? That their point of buying it is wrong? It sounds an awful lot like you are trying to project your values on to others. If people agreed with you, they wouldn't buy these paintings. And yet they do, in great numbers.
  - Retra 11y ago
    Some people just want a painting to decorate a wall somewhere, not to tell a story. And doing that, I wouldn't care one bit where it was painted or how many other copies were made.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >why should I value a local artist any more than an artist in China? // As I see it part of the function of art is to reflect on the culture the artist is in or a part of. This can't be done authentically from afar. Another element of this is that artists should be expanding our minds, making us think is one purpose of many artistic creations (some would say that's what makes it art). Partly, I feel, for a society to continue to develop effectively it needs to patronise elements on its philosophical fringes that can move beyond the norms of groupthink, beyond the acceptable establishment paths of thought and then present the ideas experienced in a way that makes others question their position and the progress of that culture. If we take away the bread and butter work of burgeoning artists then in order to have artists in our local culture that can serve this function in society we need to create some other means to support them. A foreign artist can't honestly reflect on a culture they haven't experienced, an immigrant artist who comes to experience a new culture can create art that serves both their native culture and the culture they newly experience however - but you can't do that [in the same way] from a room half-way around the globe IMO.
  - nkrisc 11y ago
    I've spent some time thinking about what you wrote. I think you bring up some very good points. >Another element of this is that artists should be expanding our minds I would agree, but I would disagree that art from the Chinese artists in question can't accomplish this. If you saw a painting that came from there, but didn't know its provenance, could it not accomplish this? Would learning where it came from change how you felt about it? One might say these artists are simply copying photographs people send them, and they are, but they are still human reproductions and there is inevitably some element of interpretation on the part of these artists in producing the paintings. As I see it, that is art, and it is no less intrinsically valuable, kitschy as it may be.
chrischen 11y ago
Actually, artists here can find work. I have many friends who do commissions at a constant rate. Some of them are listed in the creative art marketplace: http://www.instapainting.com/artists http://www.instapainting.com/artists. They also work in film, animation, video game companies. It's true if you're just straight up copying a photo, you're going to have to compete with the Chinese commercial art industry. But they don't do creative work, so any amount of deviation from just copying a photo and you'll have a leg up. Frankly artists here don't want to copy photos, and even the studio artists we interviewed in China don't want to do that either. But it's a steady source of income for them. I'd suggest you talk to some artists here first and get their opinion, and then talk to some of the artists in China, because that's what I did.
- zeroecco 11y ago
  I haven't been to China specifically, but I have been to Germany, Japan, Mexico, Canada, all over the USA, Poland, and France. I HAVE spoke with painters, not normally by choice lol (because my wife is one) and universally the pinch is felt. Reproduction work is the bread and butter of most fine artists to pay for their living and fund their original work. Oh and the PAINT alone in the USA ranges from the crazy gonna like posion you cheap (~5 bucks/color US dollars) to expensive (80 bucks/color US dollars). That doesn't even cover canvas, brushes, or space to paint in. lets not forget about time. A persons' time is worth something too. Explain to me how an artist can survive with material costs like that on 50-400 a painting when it takes hours/days for one person to paint a reproduction. [edit] I forgot about gesso, that isn't cheap either.
  - chrischen 11y ago
    You have to realize that if they're being pinched, then they're being pinched by competition from Chinese artists and globalization. Like I said, if you want to be explained how the Chinese artists are surviving, then ask one in China. Dafen is a huge tourist destination and is not actually a secret "village."
    - zeroecco 11y ago
patio11 11y ago
I would counsel a "friendly local fine artist" who feels threatened by the existence of $100 paint-by-photograph artworks produced in China to get better about their marketing, differentiation, and sales process rather than lamenting the decline of art. If they're selling something this substitutes for... that's a very unfortunate business decision. (Too many of my creative friends, for all values of "creative", are socialized to believe that treating their profession like it is a business will somehow suck all the magic out of that. If you like friendly-local-fine-artist, you owe it to them to help counteract years of indoctrination on this score.) A young lady at a Renaissance fair produced an artistic work heavily inspired by a photo of Ruriko and I at our wedding. (She, incidentally, undercharged and had to be tipped into accepting a reasonable wage, then attempted to convince me that I was overtipping. Art culture: GAH!) That work is certainly available for less than what she charged... somewhere over in China, where middle class RenFair participants who are primed to spend money are presently not wandering while considering "Hey I wonder if I could get a wedding photo done as human art?" A really smart business decision she made was a) bringing several samples of high-saliency events done in her signature style (weddings/graduations/etc) and b) hiring a barker, whose only job was selling passerby on artwork when she was producing it on the spot. Another smart decision was working directly with clients on the spot: that was a definite value add versus uploading the JPG into a CRUD app then shipping it halfway around the world. The venue handles a lot of customer selection for you, too -- you can imagine that "homemade using the techniques of the ancients; not like that factory-produced nonsense you'd find at BigBox" carries a lot of weight with many of the people who willingly bust themselves back to the Middle Ages for part of a day. (I'd note that pitch was successful at selling several hundred dollars worth of soap in a ten minute period I observed the soap store. Having used $20 of it myself, I can reliably report that P&G ROFLstomps your typical artisan on soap quality, but then again they don't sell any soap called Dragon's Blood, so decisions decisions.)
- zeroecco 11y ago
  it's Dragon's Blood, I mean common, who can compete with that?!
cortesoft 11y ago
But what if I want a painting of my buddy drunk at the office party, so I can give it to him as a gag gift?
- chrischen 11y ago
  This is actually a very common order request, but not even close to the weirdest.
  - cortesoft 11y ago
    Yeah, I kinda figured that would actually be the most common use case (gag gift for a funny picture). At my office, people have been using fiver in a similar way - to order gag custom written songs for different people. We basically have theme songs for all our regular meetings now.
detaro 11y ago
Because they don't have easy-to-find, affordable, clearly priced offerings? Or because their supporters tell people to "buy a print from a printing machine" if they don't like their approach?
msie 11y ago
I think Art will survive this.

nkrisc 11y ago

Aside from respecting geopolitical borders and nationalistic allegiance, why should I value a local artist any more than an artist in China? Is the Chinese artist somehow lesser than the local artist?

chrischen 11y ago
Yep. Even The Simpsons outsources lower-level animation to South Korea.
zeroecco 11y ago
is synthetic vanilla `less than` real vanilla? People are not the problem here, the product is. It lacks in the POINT of art. Art is like going to a concert, an expression of the human condition. Why go if you can listen to a perfect mix of it at home? How you get a painting is part of the reason you get the painting at all. The story behind it is just as much of the point as the piece itself. To be clear: If you are in China, buy art from a Chinese artist. If you are in Brazil, buy art from a Brazilian artist.
- genericone 11y ago
  I think the downvotes are coming from the following interpretation of your comment: No true Artsman buys art internationally.
  - zeroecco 11y ago
    likely. but that wasn't my intent.
- joosters 11y ago
  Are you really saying that people buying these pictures are buying it for the wrong reason? That their point of buying it is wrong? It sounds an awful lot like you are trying to project your values on to others. If people agreed with you, they wouldn't buy these paintings. And yet they do, in great numbers.
- Retra 11y ago
  Some people just want a painting to decorate a wall somewhere, not to tell a story. And doing that, I wouldn't care one bit where it was painted or how many other copies were made.
pbhjpbhj 11y ago
>why should I value a local artist any more than an artist in China? // As I see it part of the function of art is to reflect on the culture the artist is in or a part of. This can't be done authentically from afar. Another element of this is that artists should be expanding our minds, making us think is one purpose of many artistic creations (some would say that's what makes it art). Partly, I feel, for a society to continue to develop effectively it needs to patronise elements on its philosophical fringes that can move beyond the norms of groupthink, beyond the acceptable establishment paths of thought and then present the ideas experienced in a way that makes others question their position and the progress of that culture. If we take away the bread and butter work of burgeoning artists then in order to have artists in our local culture that can serve this function in society we need to create some other means to support them. A foreign artist can't honestly reflect on a culture they haven't experienced, an immigrant artist who comes to experience a new culture can create art that serves both their native culture and the culture they newly experience however - but you can't do that [in the same way] from a room half-way around the globe IMO.
- nkrisc 11y ago
  I've spent some time thinking about what you wrote. I think you bring up some very good points. >Another element of this is that artists should be expanding our minds I would agree, but I would disagree that art from the Chinese artists in question can't accomplish this. If you saw a painting that came from there, but didn't know its provenance, could it not accomplish this? Would learning where it came from change how you felt about it? One might say these artists are simply copying photographs people send them, and they are, but they are still human reproductions and there is inevitably some element of interpretation on the part of these artists in producing the paintings. As I see it, that is art, and it is no less intrinsically valuable, kitschy as it may be.

chrischen 11y ago

Actually, artists here can find work. I have many friends who do commissions at a constant rate. Some of them are listed in the creative art marketplace: http://www.instapainting.com/artists http://www.instapainting.com/artists. They also work in film, animation, video game companies. It's true if you're just straight up copying a photo, you're going to have to compete with the Chinese commercial art industry. But they don't do creative work, so any amount of deviation from just copying a photo and you'll have a leg up. Frankly artists here don't want to copy photos, and even the studio artists we interviewed in China don't want to do that either. But it's a steady source of income for them. I'd suggest you talk to some artists here first and get their opinion, and then talk to some of the artists in China, because that's what I did.

zeroecco 11y ago
I haven't been to China specifically, but I have been to Germany, Japan, Mexico, Canada, all over the USA, Poland, and France. I HAVE spoke with painters, not normally by choice lol (because my wife is one) and universally the pinch is felt. Reproduction work is the bread and butter of most fine artists to pay for their living and fund their original work. Oh and the PAINT alone in the USA ranges from the crazy gonna like posion you cheap (~5 bucks/color US dollars) to expensive (80 bucks/color US dollars). That doesn't even cover canvas, brushes, or space to paint in. lets not forget about time. A persons' time is worth something too. Explain to me how an artist can survive with material costs like that on 50-400 a painting when it takes hours/days for one person to paint a reproduction. [edit] I forgot about gesso, that isn't cheap either.
- chrischen 11y ago
  You have to realize that if they're being pinched, then they're being pinched by competition from Chinese artists and globalization. Like I said, if you want to be explained how the Chinese artists are surviving, then ask one in China. Dafen is a huge tourist destination and is not actually a secret "village."
  - zeroecco 11y ago

patio11 11y ago

I would counsel a "friendly local fine artist" who feels threatened by the existence of $100 paint-by-photograph artworks produced in China to get better about their marketing, differentiation, and sales process rather than lamenting the decline of art. If they're selling something this substitutes for... that's a very unfortunate business decision. (Too many of my creative friends, for all values of "creative", are socialized to believe that treating their profession like it is a business will somehow suck all the magic out of that. If you like friendly-local-fine-artist, you owe it to them to help counteract years of indoctrination on this score.) A young lady at a Renaissance fair produced an artistic work heavily inspired by a photo of Ruriko and I at our wedding. (She, incidentally, undercharged and had to be tipped into accepting a reasonable wage, then attempted to convince me that I was overtipping. Art culture: GAH!) That work is certainly available for less than what she charged... somewhere over in China, where middle class RenFair participants who are primed to spend money are presently not wandering while considering "Hey I wonder if I could get a wedding photo done as human art?" A really smart business decision she made was a) bringing several samples of high-saliency events done in her signature style (weddings/graduations/etc) and b) hiring a barker, whose only job was selling passerby on artwork when she was producing it on the spot. Another smart decision was working directly with clients on the spot: that was a definite value add versus uploading the JPG into a CRUD app then shipping it halfway around the world. The venue handles a lot of customer selection for you, too -- you can imagine that "homemade using the techniques of the ancients; not like that factory-produced nonsense you'd find at BigBox" carries a lot of weight with many of the people who willingly bust themselves back to the Middle Ages for part of a day. (I'd note that pitch was successful at selling several hundred dollars worth of soap in a ten minute period I observed the soap store. Having used $20 of it myself, I can reliably report that P&G ROFLstomps your typical artisan on soap quality, but then again they don't sell any soap called Dragon's Blood, so decisions decisions.)

zeroecco 11y ago
it's Dragon's Blood, I mean common, who can compete with that?!

cortesoft 11y ago

But what if I want a painting of my buddy drunk at the office party, so I can give it to him as a gag gift?

chrischen 11y ago
This is actually a very common order request, but not even close to the weirdest.
- cortesoft 11y ago
  Yeah, I kinda figured that would actually be the most common use case (gag gift for a funny picture). At my office, people have been using fiver in a similar way - to order gag custom written songs for different people. We basically have theme songs for all our regular meetings now.

detaro 11y ago

Because they don't have easy-to-find, affordable, clearly priced offerings? Or because their supporters tell people to "buy a print from a printing machine" if they don't like their approach?

msie 11y ago

I think Art will survive this.