5 ms·

Is this a trade-off that most buyers are aware of? I'm not sure it's as simple as "shaving off a couple of millimeters", but if that's the case I know I would p

Is this a trade-off that most buyers are aware of? I'm not sure it's as simple as "shaving off a couple of millimeters", but if that's the case I know I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability, especially the day I realize I need a new battery. I was thinking about switching to a Macbook Pro, but for me this is just another argument to go with something else. Can't deny that the hardware is great though, but to me this makes it less great. I had my last laptop for 8 years because I could replace broken parts myself, and upgrade to an SSD, I think that's a nice feature of the hardware too.

tptacek 11y ago
They've dedicated whole chunks of keynotes to talking about how the new batteries are integrated with the chassis. Obviously, most of their customers don't care, but then: you can say that about this story too! Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed.
- jacobr1 11y ago
  > Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed. Yep, and this would still be true if the laptop was more serviceable. Most people don't change the oil on their car either even if it relatively easy. In fact most people don't even put air in the tires and instead rely on getting that done during quarterly oil changes!
  - tptacek 11y ago
    If you could make a car more fuel-efficient, faster, or less polluting by making it difficult to change the oil yourself, that would be a valid tradeoff. Maybe you'd keep buying Volkswagens so you could enjoy the DIY, but it would be weird to try to make a consumers rights case out of the manufacturer who took the other side of that tradeoff!
tjr 11y ago
I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability Same here. I've been a dedicated Mac user since 2002, and have been contemplating upgrading my 2010 MBP. The decreasing serviceability gives me lengthy pause, though I'm not sure that I would be happier with something else (even if it were more serviceable).
- slantyyz 11y ago
  The primary driver to me switching from Mac to Windows was the lack of serviceability in newer models. That and the fact that my 2011 MBP bricked (famous heat issues that Apple pretended didn't exist until after I bought a replacement laptop). I loved, loved, loved the 15" unibody Macbook Pro design. It allowed me to upgrade to better components (RAM, SSDs) as prices came down. The only thing I felt was missing from my 2011 MBP was USB 3. Once the shift was made to thinner bodies and soldered-on RAM, the writing was on the wall for me. Personally, after using OSX on Intel for a decade, I found that moving to Windows 8.1 and now 10 was not nearly as jarring as I thought it would be. Windows isn't the XP I remembered using. I actually like using Windows. The one thing I really like is touchscreens on Windows PCs. Of course, depending on your preferences (and/or biases), going to Windows may not be for you.
- freehunter 11y ago
  I always had the opinion that I would never buy a computer that wasn't able to be serviced by me and I would build my own desktops and buy Thinkpads. Then I realized that I never did any upgrades anyway, if the battery died, the laptop was usually ready to be replaced. If the CPU or memory needed to be upgraded, usually it was both, and there was probably a new technology (new socket, new type of DDR, etc). And I realized I hated dealing with my desktop, hated troubleshooting and fixing and buying replacement parts and stuffing it all together and scraping my knuckles on the case... As soon as I realized this, I said "to hell with it" and bought a Macbook. I don't need the downsides to having a serviceable laptop if I never actually perform any service on it.
cdubzzz 11y ago
> I know I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability, especially the day I realize I need a new battery. Eh, does any non-tech savy person really care about anything outside of size and weight? And maybe "speed", hah.
MBCook 11y ago
More and more PC laptops are moving to the same model. There are a lot of benefits for the manufacturer. Fewer parts (less $ to make), less to break (less support $), can make the laptop thinner and lighter (so you can charge more $), the battery no longer has to be a easy to use shape (have you seen Apple's tapered layers of thin batteries?), extra engineering costs, etc. There are people who really like/want removable batteries but it doesn't seem to be enough to keep most of the market supplying them. And now that laptops use less power little juice packs (not unlike those for cellphones) become reasonable. Plus in general removable batteries made a lot of sense when basic typing would only get you 3 or 4 hours, but now that many machines can do basic typing for 10+ hours a ton of users can get by without needing that second battery.
- bildung 11y ago
  > More and more PC laptops are moving to the same model. There are a lot of benefits for the manufacturer. Fewer parts (less $ to make), less to break (less support $), can make the laptop thinner and lighter (so you can charge more $), the battery no longer has to be a easy to use shape (have you seen Apple's tapered layers of thin batteries?), extra engineering costs, etc. Conveniently, built-in batteries also harm the resale value of a used device.
rayiner 11y ago
Apple tends to use the space savings to stuff in class-leading batteries. I have a T450s at work. The stock battery is only 46 watt-hours, versus 75 on the similarly-sized 13" rMBP. The 15" rMBP has a 100 watt-hour battery, which you can get on a T550s only if you buy the extended battery that sticks out half an inch from the bottom.
- freehunter 11y ago
  Hey those extended batteries make great handles.
- slantyyz 11y ago
  >> Apple tends to use the space savings to stuff in class-leading batteries. But can you imagine how big the batteries could be in a 15" MBP that was roughly the same size as those from 2012 and earlier? Those things would last even longer than a current 15" rMBP would, especially under load.
RBerenguel 11y ago
My previous Macbook (early 2008 white, plastic one) lasted for 5 years, no issue. Battery was fine (slowly dying as all batteries, but no big deal, it just wouldn't last as long as it used to.) Then I got a message about the battery actually dying (get to service, the white early 2008 has user-replaceable battery, though.) But it was already the time I needed a more powerful computer, and I just got a new one and removed the battery of the old one (it still works perfectly fine, no longer as a portable though.) I don't expect a computer (i.e. all pieces together) to serve me for more than 4-5 years, so this battery life is more than I can expect. Of course, if it was a system I could tinker and slowly replace piece by piece, it could but I no longer feel the tradeoff of money/abilities/time is worth it.
branchan 11y ago
I expect the consumers to do adequate research before plunking down over a grand on a new laptop.

tptacek 11y ago

They've dedicated whole chunks of keynotes to talking about how the new batteries are integrated with the chassis. Obviously, most of their customers don't care, but then: you can say that about this story too! Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed.

jacobr1 11y ago
> Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed. Yep, and this would still be true if the laptop was more serviceable. Most people don't change the oil on their car either even if it relatively easy. In fact most people don't even put air in the tires and instead rely on getting that done during quarterly oil changes!
- tptacek 11y ago
  If you could make a car more fuel-efficient, faster, or less polluting by making it difficult to change the oil yourself, that would be a valid tradeoff. Maybe you'd keep buying Volkswagens so you could enjoy the DIY, but it would be weird to try to make a consumers rights case out of the manufacturer who took the other side of that tradeoff!

tjr 11y ago

I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability Same here. I've been a dedicated Mac user since 2002, and have been contemplating upgrading my 2010 MBP. The decreasing serviceability gives me lengthy pause, though I'm not sure that I would be happier with something else (even if it were more serviceable).

slantyyz 11y ago
The primary driver to me switching from Mac to Windows was the lack of serviceability in newer models. That and the fact that my 2011 MBP bricked (famous heat issues that Apple pretended didn't exist until after I bought a replacement laptop). I loved, loved, loved the 15" unibody Macbook Pro design. It allowed me to upgrade to better components (RAM, SSDs) as prices came down. The only thing I felt was missing from my 2011 MBP was USB 3. Once the shift was made to thinner bodies and soldered-on RAM, the writing was on the wall for me. Personally, after using OSX on Intel for a decade, I found that moving to Windows 8.1 and now 10 was not nearly as jarring as I thought it would be. Windows isn't the XP I remembered using. I actually like using Windows. The one thing I really like is touchscreens on Windows PCs. Of course, depending on your preferences (and/or biases), going to Windows may not be for you.
freehunter 11y ago
I always had the opinion that I would never buy a computer that wasn't able to be serviced by me and I would build my own desktops and buy Thinkpads. Then I realized that I never did any upgrades anyway, if the battery died, the laptop was usually ready to be replaced. If the CPU or memory needed to be upgraded, usually it was both, and there was probably a new technology (new socket, new type of DDR, etc). And I realized I hated dealing with my desktop, hated troubleshooting and fixing and buying replacement parts and stuffing it all together and scraping my knuckles on the case... As soon as I realized this, I said "to hell with it" and bought a Macbook. I don't need the downsides to having a serviceable laptop if I never actually perform any service on it.

cdubzzz 11y ago

> I know I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability, especially the day I realize I need a new battery. Eh, does any non-tech savy person really care about anything outside of size and weight? And maybe "speed", hah.

MBCook 11y ago

More and more PC laptops are moving to the same model. There are a lot of benefits for the manufacturer. Fewer parts (less $ to make), less to break (less support $), can make the laptop thinner and lighter (so you can charge more $), the battery no longer has to be a easy to use shape (have you seen Apple's tapered layers of thin batteries?), extra engineering costs, etc. There are people who really like/want removable batteries but it doesn't seem to be enough to keep most of the market supplying them. And now that laptops use less power little juice packs (not unlike those for cellphones) become reasonable. Plus in general removable batteries made a lot of sense when basic typing would only get you 3 or 4 hours, but now that many machines can do basic typing for 10+ hours a ton of users can get by without needing that second battery.

bildung 11y ago
> More and more PC laptops are moving to the same model. There are a lot of benefits for the manufacturer. Fewer parts (less $ to make), less to break (less support $), can make the laptop thinner and lighter (so you can charge more $), the battery no longer has to be a easy to use shape (have you seen Apple's tapered layers of thin batteries?), extra engineering costs, etc. Conveniently, built-in batteries also harm the resale value of a used device.

rayiner 11y ago

Apple tends to use the space savings to stuff in class-leading batteries. I have a T450s at work. The stock battery is only 46 watt-hours, versus 75 on the similarly-sized 13" rMBP. The 15" rMBP has a 100 watt-hour battery, which you can get on a T550s only if you buy the extended battery that sticks out half an inch from the bottom.

freehunter 11y ago
Hey those extended batteries make great handles.
slantyyz 11y ago
>> Apple tends to use the space savings to stuff in class-leading batteries. But can you imagine how big the batteries could be in a 15" MBP that was roughly the same size as those from 2012 and earlier? Those things would last even longer than a current 15" rMBP would, especially under load.

RBerenguel 11y ago

My previous Macbook (early 2008 white, plastic one) lasted for 5 years, no issue. Battery was fine (slowly dying as all batteries, but no big deal, it just wouldn't last as long as it used to.) Then I got a message about the battery actually dying (get to service, the white early 2008 has user-replaceable battery, though.) But it was already the time I needed a more powerful computer, and I just got a new one and removed the battery of the old one (it still works perfectly fine, no longer as a portable though.) I don't expect a computer (i.e. all pieces together) to serve me for more than 4-5 years, so this battery life is more than I can expect. Of course, if it was a system I could tinker and slowly replace piece by piece, it could but I no longer feel the tradeoff of money/abilities/time is worth it.

branchan 11y ago

I expect the consumers to do adequate research before plunking down over a grand on a new laptop.