7 ms·

Isn't this sort of a cake-and-eat-it-too situation? If you want a slim, lightweight laptop that still performs at a high level, you can't expect the old pop out

by dchuk 11y ago

Isn't this sort of a cake-and-eat-it-too situation? If you want a slim, lightweight laptop that still performs at a high level, you can't expect the old pop out batteries with the little switch we grew up with on laptops. While $400 is expensive to replace a battery, it's obviously not as simple as just popping a new one in, which is the compromise one has to make if they want a Macbook Pro. If you want easily swappable batteries, get a different machine. Also, $400 to get a brand new battery to essentially revive a computer that will probably work great for a few more years is a whole lot cheaper than having to buy a new computer. Just food for thought.

yeukhon 11y ago
Depends. These days with hardware failure rate becoming higher (maybe it's just an illusion due to the ability of providing feedback on the Internet, but I argue that most of the old machines I know still work today but not so many with the more recent one), the next victim can be your SSD. Apple does get some good SSD from Samsung though. The benefit of a lock-down is controlling variable, and placing Apple at a higher standard (I hope they still do for software). Raising the bar so fewer people are able to customize computer helps controlling quality and also prevent wasting time on figuring out if problem was caused by foreign hardware's fault or not.
- tptacek 11y ago
  I've been nothing but Apple laptops since 2001, when I ran Yellow Dog Linux on a TiBook, and co-ran a company with ~40 people all using MBPs, and my experience is that Apple hardware is getting significantly more reliable than it was before. I think the effect you're seeing is just that more people are using Apple computers than were even 5 years ago, and so there's just more feedback to read.
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    For the old ones, I am referring to non-Apple machines.
- relaxatorium 11y ago
  At the risk of being "cites articles about cognitive biases guy", it's worth remembering that the reason that the old machines you know today still work is because people have generally gotten rid of all the old machines that are broken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    Absolutely. I really don't have anything scientific but my really unscientific reasoning is that, even if my observation is true, the reason behind it are mass production and the ease of replacement. when you do DOA you usually get a replacement fairly quickly online. Unlike in 2000, you can get computer parts entirely online now, though computer parts are still very expensive (the good one).
andrelaszlo 11y ago
Is this a trade-off that most buyers are aware of? I'm not sure it's as simple as "shaving off a couple of millimeters", but if that's the case I know I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability, especially the day I realize I need a new battery. I was thinking about switching to a Macbook Pro, but for me this is just another argument to go with something else. Can't deny that the hardware is great though, but to me this makes it less great. I had my last laptop for 8 years because I could replace broken parts myself, and upgrade to an SSD, I think that's a nice feature of the hardware too.
- tptacek 11y ago
  They've dedicated whole chunks of keynotes to talking about how the new batteries are integrated with the chassis. Obviously, most of their customers don't care, but then: you can say that about this story too! Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed.
  - jacobr1 11y ago
    > Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed. Yep, and this would still be true if the laptop was more serviceable. Most people don't change the oil on their car either even if it relatively easy. In fact most people don't even put air in the tires and instead rely on getting that done during quarterly oil changes!
    - tptacek 11y ago
      If you could make a car more fuel-efficient, faster, or less polluting by making it difficult to change the oil yourself, that would be a valid tradeoff. Maybe you'd keep buying Volkswagens so you could enjoy the DIY, but it would be weird to try to make a consumers rights case out of the manufacturer who took the other side of that tradeoff!
- tjr 11y ago
  I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability Same here. I've been a dedicated Mac user since 2002, and have been contemplating upgrading my 2010 MBP. The decreasing serviceability gives me lengthy pause, though I'm not sure that I would be happier with something else (even if it were more serviceable).
stevesearer 11y ago
Agree. My older Macbook Pro basically has a dead battery and I'm thinking about just replacing the battery and swapping the hard drive for an ssd to give it some new life. That said, it is used primarily at the house so we just plug it in to watch some netflix and browse the web or pull up a recipe for dinner, so it isn't that big of an issue in the first place for my purposes.
- Eric_WVGG 11y ago
  I’ve had outstanding luck with DIY fusion drives. A cheap 64gb SSD can be had for under $50 and is more than adequate.
- giarc 11y ago
  A SSD and some ram upgrade can do wonders for an older machine (and price is pretty reasonable for both these days). You can even get kits that allow you to take out your 'superdrive' and install a second hard drive.
  - MBCook 11y ago
    Yep. I'm still using a 2010 MBP. I maxed out the RAM a few years ago and it performed better. Now I've got an SSD in it and it feels like new. Almost nothing I do pushes it so I simply have no good reason to replace it. If I hadn't put the SSD in I would have replaced it two+ years ago because it felt slow.
    - gambiting 11y ago
      I'm actually still using a 2009 MacBook Pro(core2duo+4gb ram), I put in a Kingston 128GB SSD and the machine runs El Capitan without any problem. I keep it permanently on as a kitchen PC, for looking up recipes and stuff.
- n1000 11y ago
  Once the battery is completely dead the CPU will throttle however.
redidas 11y ago
Personally, I'd rather have a few extra mm of thickness and batteries that are not glued to a keyboard. Efforts could be made to keep this tech more repairable.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Speak for yourself. I want a thin laptop that feels almost like a slab of mysteriously lightweight solid aluminum, and Apple is delivering that. It's not like this was a cost-saving measure for them; they're not pulling one over on you. They went nuts trying to make these things solid, lightweight, and skinny, and this was a tradeoff they made --- at significant expense.
  - zzleeper 11y ago
    It reminds me of printer sales or high-fee consumer credits.. they benefit from consumer myopia about the future. There's even a lot of literature about that: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/4554333/Laibson_ShroudedAttributes.pdf?sequence=2 https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/4554333/Laibson_... In this case, I'm guessing many people that are not that well-off still buy macs but don't really realize the future repair costs..
    - oldmanjay 11y ago
      Does it remind you of buying nearly everything? Do you think the average consumer decides to buy a home appliance or a television based on the possibility of providing user service at reduced rates?
  - 51Cards 11y ago
    " --- at significant expense." Which is being directly passed on to the client along with an extra slice of profit making. Brilliant but not so nice if you're the client.
- p0wnd 11y ago
  Great, you can buy a chunky ass hp laptop and enjoy that big ol paperweight all you want.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
AnthonyMouse 11y ago
> If you want easily swappable batteries, get a different machine. Apple doesn't make a different machine. Obviously what you mean is to buy from a different vendor, which is what I expect to do when the time comes for a new laptop. But how is it good for Apple that they got my money last time and won't get it next time?
- freehunter 11y ago
  Judging by the increase in sales year over year for the Macbooks, it doesn't seem like it's bad for Apple. How many sales has Apple gained by making the laptop thinner and lighter and giving it a longer battery life compared to sales lost from not making a few parts user-replaceable?
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    > Judging by the increase in sales year over year for the Macbooks... ...you get a number that tracks the economy in general and the consumption of luxury electronics in particular, is affected by the relative strength of Apple's ecosystem against Microsoft and Google, how badly Superfish has affected Lenovo's reputation, etc. etc. And in any event the numbers aren't particularly optimistic: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/10/08/apple-mac-sales-slow-to-lowest-rate-in-two-years-analysts/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/10/08/apple-mac-sales-slow-... > How many sales has Apple gained by making the laptop thinner and lighter and giving it a longer battery life compared to sales lost from not making a few parts user-replaceable? We don't even have all the data yet. Customers don't realize they want a user-serviceable battery until they've had to replace one that isn't. Apple started selling glued batteries three years ago, which means they're only starting to have to be replaced now and the largest effect will be seen going forward when the people affected are buying new laptops. But you're asking the wrong question anyway. The interesting question is: What would their sales look like if they had both ultra lightweight models and slightly heavier models with user-serviceable parts?
    - Recurecur 11y ago
      "And in any event the numbers aren't particularly optimistic" The article is stating that the rate of growth (still positive) for Macs slowed somewhat. The same article states: "Apple nonetheless outperformed the overall PC market, which saw shipments plummet 11% to 71 million for the quarter, according to IDC. Moreover, given the worse performance of other PC makers, its market share rose to 7.6% in 2015 from 6.9% last year, according to Gartner." That looks decidedly optimistic to me!
consto 11y ago
I don't expect to be able to pop a switch, but there is a difference between integrating the battery with the chassis and gluing the battery, keyboard and logic board together in a way that makes the laptop extremely difficult to service. From what I can tell, to replace the battery on my year old lenovo ultrabook, you need to remove 16 easily accessible cross screws and disconnect a single ribbon cable. That shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. I guess there could be glue hiding under there. Not to mention it continues to last up to 10 hours on a single charge.
- rasz_pl 11y ago
  It is not difficult to service .. by a service person. It is simply not user serviceable.
  - dkonofalski 11y ago
    Except that even that's not true. You can service it yourself for pretty cheap by getting a kit from iFixIt. It's just that you need a Torx screwdriver (which comes in the kit). It's absolutely user-serviceable if you have the right tools.
    - rasz_pl 11y ago
      Absolutely NOT. You will hear same thing about iphone battery replacement - just get iFixit kit and diy. What happens is people dont know how to work with glue and try to pry it open ripping 0201 parts off the boards edge.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
alistairSH 11y ago
If you want easily swappable batteries, get a different machine. Does Apple make a user-serviceable laptop these days? I suppose you could switch to PC, but that's not as simple as spending your $3000 at BestBuy instead of the Apple store.
tracker1 11y ago
I had a C2D based MBP that I absolutely loved... the drive, ram and battery were user serviceable, and the form factor wasn't that much bigger than my current i7 based MBP. In fact if the original weren't stolen, I'd still be using it. BTW, $400 comes pretty close to buying a new laptop nearly as capable as a 2 year old machine.
venomsnake 11y ago
> If you want a slim, lightweight laptop that still performs at a high level, you can't expect the old pop out batteries with the little switch we grew up with on laptops. I can actually expect that. Apple have good enough designers to do so. But lack of serviceability for them is a feature, not a bug. Apple is pushing for rented hardware as a service in consumer space. Repairable, tweak-able or modifiable device is contrary to their goals.

by dchuk 11y ago

yeukhon 11y ago

Depends. These days with hardware failure rate becoming higher (maybe it's just an illusion due to the ability of providing feedback on the Internet, but I argue that most of the old machines I know still work today but not so many with the more recent one), the next victim can be your SSD. Apple does get some good SSD from Samsung though. The benefit of a lock-down is controlling variable, and placing Apple at a higher standard (I hope they still do for software). Raising the bar so fewer people are able to customize computer helps controlling quality and also prevent wasting time on figuring out if problem was caused by foreign hardware's fault or not.

tptacek 11y ago
I've been nothing but Apple laptops since 2001, when I ran Yellow Dog Linux on a TiBook, and co-ran a company with ~40 people all using MBPs, and my experience is that Apple hardware is getting significantly more reliable than it was before. I think the effect you're seeing is just that more people are using Apple computers than were even 5 years ago, and so there's just more feedback to read.
- yeukhon 11y ago
  For the old ones, I am referring to non-Apple machines.
relaxatorium 11y ago
At the risk of being "cites articles about cognitive biases guy", it's worth remembering that the reason that the old machines you know today still work is because people have generally gotten rid of all the old machines that are broken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)
- yeukhon 11y ago
  Absolutely. I really don't have anything scientific but my really unscientific reasoning is that, even if my observation is true, the reason behind it are mass production and the ease of replacement. when you do DOA you usually get a replacement fairly quickly online. Unlike in 2000, you can get computer parts entirely online now, though computer parts are still very expensive (the good one).

andrelaszlo 11y ago

Is this a trade-off that most buyers are aware of? I'm not sure it's as simple as "shaving off a couple of millimeters", but if that's the case I know I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability, especially the day I realize I need a new battery. I was thinking about switching to a Macbook Pro, but for me this is just another argument to go with something else. Can't deny that the hardware is great though, but to me this makes it less great. I had my last laptop for 8 years because I could replace broken parts myself, and upgrade to an SSD, I think that's a nice feature of the hardware too.

tptacek 11y ago
They've dedicated whole chunks of keynotes to talking about how the new batteries are integrated with the chassis. Obviously, most of their customers don't care, but then: you can say that about this story too! Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed.
- jacobr1 11y ago
  > Most people just take their laptops back to the Apple Store when they want anything changed. Yep, and this would still be true if the laptop was more serviceable. Most people don't change the oil on their car either even if it relatively easy. In fact most people don't even put air in the tires and instead rely on getting that done during quarterly oil changes!
  - tptacek 11y ago
    If you could make a car more fuel-efficient, faster, or less polluting by making it difficult to change the oil yourself, that would be a valid tradeoff. Maybe you'd keep buying Volkswagens so you could enjoy the DIY, but it would be weird to try to make a consumers rights case out of the manufacturer who took the other side of that tradeoff!
tjr 11y ago
I would personally trade those millimeters for better serviceability Same here. I've been a dedicated Mac user since 2002, and have been contemplating upgrading my 2010 MBP. The decreasing serviceability gives me lengthy pause, though I'm not sure that I would be happier with something else (even if it were more serviceable).

stevesearer 11y ago

Agree. My older Macbook Pro basically has a dead battery and I'm thinking about just replacing the battery and swapping the hard drive for an ssd to give it some new life. That said, it is used primarily at the house so we just plug it in to watch some netflix and browse the web or pull up a recipe for dinner, so it isn't that big of an issue in the first place for my purposes.

Eric_WVGG 11y ago
I’ve had outstanding luck with DIY fusion drives. A cheap 64gb SSD can be had for under $50 and is more than adequate.
giarc 11y ago
A SSD and some ram upgrade can do wonders for an older machine (and price is pretty reasonable for both these days). You can even get kits that allow you to take out your 'superdrive' and install a second hard drive.
- MBCook 11y ago
  Yep. I'm still using a 2010 MBP. I maxed out the RAM a few years ago and it performed better. Now I've got an SSD in it and it feels like new. Almost nothing I do pushes it so I simply have no good reason to replace it. If I hadn't put the SSD in I would have replaced it two+ years ago because it felt slow.
  - gambiting 11y ago
    I'm actually still using a 2009 MacBook Pro(core2duo+4gb ram), I put in a Kingston 128GB SSD and the machine runs El Capitan without any problem. I keep it permanently on as a kitchen PC, for looking up recipes and stuff.
n1000 11y ago
Once the battery is completely dead the CPU will throttle however.

redidas 11y ago

Personally, I'd rather have a few extra mm of thickness and batteries that are not glued to a keyboard. Efforts could be made to keep this tech more repairable.

tptacek 11y ago
Speak for yourself. I want a thin laptop that feels almost like a slab of mysteriously lightweight solid aluminum, and Apple is delivering that. It's not like this was a cost-saving measure for them; they're not pulling one over on you. They went nuts trying to make these things solid, lightweight, and skinny, and this was a tradeoff they made --- at significant expense.
- zzleeper 11y ago
  It reminds me of printer sales or high-fee consumer credits.. they benefit from consumer myopia about the future. There's even a lot of literature about that: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/4554333/Laibson_ShroudedAttributes.pdf?sequence=2 https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/4554333/Laibson_... In this case, I'm guessing many people that are not that well-off still buy macs but don't really realize the future repair costs..
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    Does it remind you of buying nearly everything? Do you think the average consumer decides to buy a home appliance or a television based on the possibility of providing user service at reduced rates?
- 51Cards 11y ago
  " --- at significant expense." Which is being directly passed on to the client along with an extra slice of profit making. Brilliant but not so nice if you're the client.
p0wnd 11y ago
Great, you can buy a chunky ass hp laptop and enjoy that big ol paperweight all you want.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

AnthonyMouse 11y ago

> If you want easily swappable batteries, get a different machine. Apple doesn't make a different machine. Obviously what you mean is to buy from a different vendor, which is what I expect to do when the time comes for a new laptop. But how is it good for Apple that they got my money last time and won't get it next time?

freehunter 11y ago
Judging by the increase in sales year over year for the Macbooks, it doesn't seem like it's bad for Apple. How many sales has Apple gained by making the laptop thinner and lighter and giving it a longer battery life compared to sales lost from not making a few parts user-replaceable?
- AnthonyMouse 11y ago
  > Judging by the increase in sales year over year for the Macbooks... ...you get a number that tracks the economy in general and the consumption of luxury electronics in particular, is affected by the relative strength of Apple's ecosystem against Microsoft and Google, how badly Superfish has affected Lenovo's reputation, etc. etc. And in any event the numbers aren't particularly optimistic: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/10/08/apple-mac-sales-slow-to-lowest-rate-in-two-years-analysts/ http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/10/08/apple-mac-sales-slow-... > How many sales has Apple gained by making the laptop thinner and lighter and giving it a longer battery life compared to sales lost from not making a few parts user-replaceable? We don't even have all the data yet. Customers don't realize they want a user-serviceable battery until they've had to replace one that isn't. Apple started selling glued batteries three years ago, which means they're only starting to have to be replaced now and the largest effect will be seen going forward when the people affected are buying new laptops. But you're asking the wrong question anyway. The interesting question is: What would their sales look like if they had both ultra lightweight models and slightly heavier models with user-serviceable parts?
  - Recurecur 11y ago
    "And in any event the numbers aren't particularly optimistic" The article is stating that the rate of growth (still positive) for Macs slowed somewhat. The same article states: "Apple nonetheless outperformed the overall PC market, which saw shipments plummet 11% to 71 million for the quarter, according to IDC. Moreover, given the worse performance of other PC makers, its market share rose to 7.6% in 2015 from 6.9% last year, according to Gartner." That looks decidedly optimistic to me!

consto 11y ago

I don't expect to be able to pop a switch, but there is a difference between integrating the battery with the chassis and gluing the battery, keyboard and logic board together in a way that makes the laptop extremely difficult to service. From what I can tell, to replace the battery on my year old lenovo ultrabook, you need to remove 16 easily accessible cross screws and disconnect a single ribbon cable. That shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. I guess there could be glue hiding under there. Not to mention it continues to last up to 10 hours on a single charge.

rasz_pl 11y ago
It is not difficult to service .. by a service person. It is simply not user serviceable.
- dkonofalski 11y ago
  Except that even that's not true. You can service it yourself for pretty cheap by getting a kit from iFixIt. It's just that you need a Torx screwdriver (which comes in the kit). It's absolutely user-serviceable if you have the right tools.
  - rasz_pl 11y ago
    Absolutely NOT. You will hear same thing about iphone battery replacement - just get iFixit kit and diy. What happens is people dont know how to work with glue and try to pry it open ripping 0201 parts off the boards edge.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

alistairSH 11y ago

If you want easily swappable batteries, get a different machine. Does Apple make a user-serviceable laptop these days? I suppose you could switch to PC, but that's not as simple as spending your $3000 at BestBuy instead of the Apple store.

tracker1 11y ago

I had a C2D based MBP that I absolutely loved... the drive, ram and battery were user serviceable, and the form factor wasn't that much bigger than my current i7 based MBP. In fact if the original weren't stolen, I'd still be using it. BTW, $400 comes pretty close to buying a new laptop nearly as capable as a 2 year old machine.

venomsnake 11y ago

> If you want a slim, lightweight laptop that still performs at a high level, you can't expect the old pop out batteries with the little switch we grew up with on laptops. I can actually expect that. Apple have good enough designers to do so. But lack of serviceability for them is a feature, not a bug. Apple is pushing for rented hardware as a service in consumer space. Repairable, tweak-able or modifiable device is contrary to their goals.