8 ms·

VW slumps to first quarterly loss in at least 15 years

41 points by happyscrappy 11y ago

marvel_boy 11y ago
VW cars exceed legal emissions 40 times. There is a reason for no preventing to use this cars?
- Someone1234 11y ago
  They can be re-programmed to stay within emissions. The user just might feel the driving experience worsens as a result.
  - sp332 11y ago
    Some of them will need new hardware to reduce NOx emissions in real-world driving conditions.
    - rockdoe 11y ago
      No other car makers get their emissions tested in real-world driving conditions, so that's irrelevant.
      - csours 11y ago
        They do now. http://www.autonews.com/article/20150929/OEM04/150929814/gms- http://www.autonews.com/article/20150929/OEM04/150929814/gms... new-diesel-pickups-first-to-get-extra-scrutiny-from-epa-carb
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- Igglyboo 11y ago
  I don't think the government can say "you were lied to about your car, stop using it" also VW can't force people to get the recall, why would you want to get a recall that worsens the performance of you car.
  - choudanu4 11y ago
    Couldn't they force the hardware/software modifications when people go in for yearly inspections?
    - ams6110 11y ago
      Not all states have inspections.
  - adrianN 11y ago
    The recall is mandatory for the consumers if they want to continue operating their car, at least here in Germany.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - djb_hackernews 11y ago
    Of course they can say that. I think you are stating an opinion on this specific case and I'm sure you can imagine cases that may be a bit more extreme where you would reasonably say that the government shouldn't allow these vehicles on the road. But... I personally have the opinion that if these vehicles are polluting so far over the standards set as reported then they shouldn't be allowed to be driven or pay a "carbon tax" or be forced to get the upgrade, etc.
  - rlpb 11y ago
    It's reasonable for governments to tell owners that they must get a software update or stop using their cars after some reasonable grace period while also forcing VW to compensate owners for their losses in doing this (eg. reduced performance). Essentially protect the environment as intended while getting VW to foot the bill.
- brational 11y ago
  Most older cars and plenty of current SUVs/trucks still put off worse emissions. Should they be banned from use as well?
Someone1234 11y ago
I don't buy the implication that this didn't go up extremely high in VW. I'm sure they'll find some low level drone(s) to take the fall like normal, but generally speaking if they were engineering and building cars which they KNEW couldn't pass emmissions it had to have been a concerted effort to cheat the system inter-departmentally, which means coordination, which means senior management involvement.
- ascagnel_ 11y ago
  The CEO has already been fired, but for something this big it won't just be the low-level types that get fired.
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    He resigned, with a potential €60 million payout coming his way. More than firing is due here - people should be going to jail for criminal fraud.
    - forgetsusername 11y ago
      >More than firing is due here - people should be going to jail for criminal fraud. How about they prove criminal fraud before we talk about locking people up?
      - ceejayoz 11y ago
        Someone committed criminal fraud. You don't accidentally put a defeat device like this into a car.
  - gruez 11y ago
    >The CEO has already been fired ...with a 67M severance package https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09...
lectrick 11y ago
Well, that's what happens when your software lies. At least EFF had a small win here https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1234 https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1... despite losing the fight against idiotic CISA.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
philfrasty 11y ago
They feed roughly 600.000 people worldwide (without suppliers) and have been around for more than 70 years. Just saying.
softyeti 11y ago
I wonder if we are going to discover similar emissions skirting in over manufacturer's vehicles soon.
- buster 11y ago
  Already done. It's funny how the press is only talking about VW but meanwhile there are first tests showing that many other manufacturers do/did the same. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-...
  - SilasX 11y ago
    That wasn't "the same". In those cases, they optimized for the kind of environment the tests have (which regulators encourage as that test is supposed to be representative). They didn't have the computer detect whether a specific run was a test, as VW did.
_yy 11y ago
General Motors - which knew about their broken ignition switches for over a decade - got away with a 900$m fine. That defect killed at least 124 people.
- ams6110 11y ago
  And they got bailed out by the US taxpayers. I am just astonished at the outrage over some skirting of an arbitrary number in an emissions standard, in contrast to the comparative yawn over the things other automakers have done that they knew would actually kill people.
  - lm______ 11y ago
    Polluting the environment kills people too.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      And CO2 kills also people. VW's cars had far lower CO2 emissions than competitors.
      - Mikeb85 11y ago
        That remains to be seen. CO2 is fairly innocuous, and already makes up a large percent of the volume of air. It's theorized that it leads to climate change (that being said, 8000 years ago Europe was also in an ice age, yet it thawed without mankind's help), but for the present time the amount of deaths that can be directly blamed on CO2 from cars (remember, people and animals create more CO2 than vehicles) is non-existent. Even if mankind's CO2 use does tip the scale enough to definitively kill millions, more CO2 is produced from power plants, ships, industrial ranching and burning forests than is produced by cars (especially VW cars). On the other hand, the other gases released by diesel-burning automobiles do show direct health consequences, and VW has done the most to propagate diesel vehicles...
        hengheng 11y ago
mc32 11y ago
I'm surprised that in the US their sales didn't take nosedive, I take that to indicate their customer base has a very enthusiastic and fundamental core... Which is good for them. If this does not shake their confidence, then nothing will, and if this is the case worldwide, VW will survive this scandal largely unscathed, relative to the size of this scandal. For a while it seemed like their viability was very much in question, now it seems beside some large write downs and some lean years, they will survive.
- TheCapn 11y ago
  Generally speaking I haven't seen a whole lot of stress about the situation from the VW owner clubs I'm part of. The common mentality is that VW had to cheat the rules by a 3rd party in order to deliver the quality of vehicles they've grown to love and they don't necessarily blame VW for that, they blame the regulations. Personally I'm a bit skeptical that my next vehicle will be VW. I'm sure I'll give them a test but they won't be as favored to me as they could be simply because there's doubt of honesty in my mind now. Have they pulled some scam on my car that's yet to be caught? Is everything I've been promised on the brochure guaranteed or did they skirt some other regulation or standard?
- colechristensen 11y ago
  Fundamentally, I don't really care that they tried to cheat emissions tests. At least when it comes to a purchase decision. The regulators did a bad job at making the testing procedure giving manufacturers a pretty strong motivations to cheat. I expect others to get caught doing similar things. I'd buy another VW because the one I have has done a good job of getting the little things right in ways other cars I've owned didn't.
  - mc32 11y ago
    We'll just see if future new buyers feel the same way regarding their ethics surrounding abiding to emissions regulations. So far, it would seem people are forgiving them, but that may or may not change depending on findings regarding other cheaters, if any, but, in the least, this has the potential to change consumer preference in fuels, given one is not as undirty as originally claimed.
superuser2 11y ago
Ford did the same thing in 1997. Companies seem to recover.
- benjarrell 11y ago
  Honda as well: http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents/defeat.pdf http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents...
tajen 11y ago
The article mentions €6.7bn set aside, but their trimestrial loss is $3.48bn only. IANA-financial-analyst, but they're still profitable after scandal. Here are a few points of comparison: - Revenue 2013: €197 billion (over 1 year) - Profit 2013: €6.4 billion (over 1 year) So the scandal cost them 1 year of profits, 3% of their revenue.

41 points by happyscrappy 11y ago

marvel_boy 11y ago

VW cars exceed legal emissions 40 times. There is a reason for no preventing to use this cars?

Someone1234 11y ago
They can be re-programmed to stay within emissions. The user just might feel the driving experience worsens as a result.
- sp332 11y ago
  Some of them will need new hardware to reduce NOx emissions in real-world driving conditions.
  - rockdoe 11y ago
    No other car makers get their emissions tested in real-world driving conditions, so that's irrelevant.
    - csours 11y ago
      They do now. http://www.autonews.com/article/20150929/OEM04/150929814/gms- http://www.autonews.com/article/20150929/OEM04/150929814/gms... new-diesel-pickups-first-to-get-extra-scrutiny-from-epa-carb
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
Igglyboo 11y ago
I don't think the government can say "you were lied to about your car, stop using it" also VW can't force people to get the recall, why would you want to get a recall that worsens the performance of you car.
- choudanu4 11y ago
  Couldn't they force the hardware/software modifications when people go in for yearly inspections?
  - ams6110 11y ago
    Not all states have inspections.
- adrianN 11y ago
  The recall is mandatory for the consumers if they want to continue operating their car, at least here in Germany.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- djb_hackernews 11y ago
  Of course they can say that. I think you are stating an opinion on this specific case and I'm sure you can imagine cases that may be a bit more extreme where you would reasonably say that the government shouldn't allow these vehicles on the road. But... I personally have the opinion that if these vehicles are polluting so far over the standards set as reported then they shouldn't be allowed to be driven or pay a "carbon tax" or be forced to get the upgrade, etc.
- rlpb 11y ago
  It's reasonable for governments to tell owners that they must get a software update or stop using their cars after some reasonable grace period while also forcing VW to compensate owners for their losses in doing this (eg. reduced performance). Essentially protect the environment as intended while getting VW to foot the bill.
brational 11y ago
Most older cars and plenty of current SUVs/trucks still put off worse emissions. Should they be banned from use as well?

Someone1234 11y ago

I don't buy the implication that this didn't go up extremely high in VW. I'm sure they'll find some low level drone(s) to take the fall like normal, but generally speaking if they were engineering and building cars which they KNEW couldn't pass emmissions it had to have been a concerted effort to cheat the system inter-departmentally, which means coordination, which means senior management involvement.

ascagnel_ 11y ago
The CEO has already been fired, but for something this big it won't just be the low-level types that get fired.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  He resigned, with a potential €60 million payout coming his way. More than firing is due here - people should be going to jail for criminal fraud.
  - forgetsusername 11y ago
    >More than firing is due here - people should be going to jail for criminal fraud. How about they prove criminal fraud before we talk about locking people up?
    - ceejayoz 11y ago
      Someone committed criminal fraud. You don't accidentally put a defeat device like this into a car.
- gruez 11y ago
  >The CEO has already been fired ...with a 67M severance package https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09...

lectrick 11y ago

Well, that's what happens when your software lies. At least EFF had a small win here https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1234 https://supporters.eff.org/civicrm/mailing/view?reset=1&id=1... despite losing the fight against idiotic CISA.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

philfrasty 11y ago

They feed roughly 600.000 people worldwide (without suppliers) and have been around for more than 70 years. Just saying.

softyeti 11y ago

I wonder if we are going to discover similar emissions skirting in over manufacturer's vehicles soon.

buster 11y ago
Already done. It's funny how the press is only talking about VW but meanwhile there are first tests showing that many other manufacturers do/did the same. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-...
- SilasX 11y ago
  That wasn't "the same". In those cases, they optimized for the kind of environment the tests have (which regulators encourage as that test is supposed to be representative). They didn't have the computer detect whether a specific run was a test, as VW did.

_yy 11y ago

General Motors - which knew about their broken ignition switches for over a decade - got away with a 900$m fine. That defect killed at least 124 people.

ams6110 11y ago
And they got bailed out by the US taxpayers. I am just astonished at the outrage over some skirting of an arbitrary number in an emissions standard, in contrast to the comparative yawn over the things other automakers have done that they knew would actually kill people.
- lm______ 11y ago
  Polluting the environment kills people too.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    And CO2 kills also people. VW's cars had far lower CO2 emissions than competitors.
    - Mikeb85 11y ago
      That remains to be seen. CO2 is fairly innocuous, and already makes up a large percent of the volume of air. It's theorized that it leads to climate change (that being said, 8000 years ago Europe was also in an ice age, yet it thawed without mankind's help), but for the present time the amount of deaths that can be directly blamed on CO2 from cars (remember, people and animals create more CO2 than vehicles) is non-existent. Even if mankind's CO2 use does tip the scale enough to definitively kill millions, more CO2 is produced from power plants, ships, industrial ranching and burning forests than is produced by cars (especially VW cars). On the other hand, the other gases released by diesel-burning automobiles do show direct health consequences, and VW has done the most to propagate diesel vehicles...
      - hengheng 11y ago

mc32 11y ago

I'm surprised that in the US their sales didn't take nosedive, I take that to indicate their customer base has a very enthusiastic and fundamental core... Which is good for them. If this does not shake their confidence, then nothing will, and if this is the case worldwide, VW will survive this scandal largely unscathed, relative to the size of this scandal. For a while it seemed like their viability was very much in question, now it seems beside some large write downs and some lean years, they will survive.

TheCapn 11y ago
Generally speaking I haven't seen a whole lot of stress about the situation from the VW owner clubs I'm part of. The common mentality is that VW had to cheat the rules by a 3rd party in order to deliver the quality of vehicles they've grown to love and they don't necessarily blame VW for that, they blame the regulations. Personally I'm a bit skeptical that my next vehicle will be VW. I'm sure I'll give them a test but they won't be as favored to me as they could be simply because there's doubt of honesty in my mind now. Have they pulled some scam on my car that's yet to be caught? Is everything I've been promised on the brochure guaranteed or did they skirt some other regulation or standard?
colechristensen 11y ago
Fundamentally, I don't really care that they tried to cheat emissions tests. At least when it comes to a purchase decision. The regulators did a bad job at making the testing procedure giving manufacturers a pretty strong motivations to cheat. I expect others to get caught doing similar things. I'd buy another VW because the one I have has done a good job of getting the little things right in ways other cars I've owned didn't.
- mc32 11y ago
  We'll just see if future new buyers feel the same way regarding their ethics surrounding abiding to emissions regulations. So far, it would seem people are forgiving them, but that may or may not change depending on findings regarding other cheaters, if any, but, in the least, this has the potential to change consumer preference in fuels, given one is not as undirty as originally claimed.

superuser2 11y ago

Ford did the same thing in 1997. Companies seem to recover.

benjarrell 11y ago
Honda as well: http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents/defeat.pdf http://www2.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-06/documents...

tajen 11y ago

The article mentions €6.7bn set aside, but their trimestrial loss is $3.48bn only. IANA-financial-analyst, but they're still profitable after scandal. Here are a few points of comparison: - Revenue 2013: €197 billion (over 1 year) - Profit 2013: €6.4 billion (over 1 year) So the scandal cost them 1 year of profits, 3% of their revenue.