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Being in wave below the author (currently in my 3rd year of University), I think there's also something to be said for how we treat alcohol around our children.

Being in wave below the author (currently in my 3rd year of University), I think there's also something to be said for how we treat alcohol around our children. In the UK we have a strange duality with underage drinking - in part we accept it as unstoppable, but at the same time it has a very strong stigma from society, at least here in Scotland. By the time you hit 18, suddenly the reins are off, and what was once forbidden and done in stolen hours becomes acceptable, and without fail, uni freshers and those in college go off the rails, often developing habits that last the better part of a decade. My current partner is Spanish, and talks of a culture that has never made drinking a forbidden fruit, stories of drinking at home with family, in moderation, abound. She, and her peers, simply don't have the "you're an adult now, DOWN IT FRESHER" attitude my Scottish peers do.

forgetsusername 11y ago
>talks of a culture that has never made drinking a forbidden fruit The same thing is often said about Italy and France. For the life of me I can't recall where I read it (maybe someone can help out), but I've seen that because alcohol isn't treated as a forbidden fruit in such countries, alcoholism is also not treated as a problem, and that rates of it are severely understated. In other words, for example, it's far more socially acceptable to have 3 glasses of wine with your lunch every day in France than in the US.
- noxToken 11y ago
  Anecdote: Many of my coworkers are from Spain. It is commonly said that two hour lunches with a beer or three are the norm. When I first started, the director took the 5 new hires to lunch, and I recall him stating that he would have bought pitchers for the table if our client was not a stickler about noon drinking. It is also very common for company events (perhaps twice/month on average?) to be held at bars immediately after work. There is no pressure for anyone to participate, but there is definitely an emphasis on drinking.
  - mason55 11y ago
    > It is also very common for company events (perhaps twice/month on average?) to be held at bars immediately after work. I mean, I don't think that is necessarily rare in the US either. We have weekly happy hours that get expensed if someone senior enough is there. And we have quarterly company parties that are paid for by the company and are just three hour open bars in a different location each time (boat, bowling, etc).
- Retric 11y ago
  3 five ounce glasses of wine with lunch is not really that bad for or all that much to drink. At 130+lb you would probably stay under .07 BAC which is still legal to drive in the US. Alcoholism generally involves either heavy drinking or life impairment issues.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Really? That's all you need out of an employee after lunch - that they won't crash their car on the way back? Its inappropriate to do any drinking at lunch, if you have work to return to.
    - Retric 11y ago
      Its inappropriate to do any drinking at lunch That's pure social stigma. There is a vast difference between drinking to intoxication and 2-3 glasses of wine with a meal. It's about as limiting as eating a heavy lunch and spending a few hours digesting.
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        There is a vast difference between not drinking at all, and coming back to work muddle-headed and slow. Especially at a technology company. If you're just moving packages between bins in the mail room, ok maybe. But you're for instance checking in to my code base, forget it.
        vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        You're severely underestimating a lot of people's alcohol tolerance, I think.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        No, I understand that completely. Some folks can look normal, while their critical judgment skills are already compromised. Those with high tolerance are a bigger problem than most.
MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
Same thing in Germany. Wine and Beer is ok from age 16, the hard stuff from age 18. And at least here in the south, there is no big taboo - especially in Bavaria.
arethuza 11y ago
What I noticed at University in Scotland was that people who had started drinking earlier (like most of my friends I started drinking and going to clubs at 16) actually seemed to cope better than people who were completely new to it. That's why I'm actually fairly relaxed about my teenage son (16) drinking occasionally in a reasonably responsible manner.
- smcl 11y ago
  The other weird thing in Scotland is the panic-buying as various licensing hours end. When buying beer\wine\whatever for a party in Scotland we'd tend to go way overboard - because after 10pm you're out of luck as the off licenses aren't able to sell you any more. Same goes for the midnight/1pm pub closing, once last orders was rung you'd sink your pint and send your mate off to get another. If you wanted to have another couple of beers you'd have to go to a club which really isn't my thing (and anecdotally tended to be where violence tended to be seeded). There's really little opportunity for relaxed social drinking that happens elsewhere in Europe. Here in Czech Republic which is famous for cheap beer and all-night bars I've seen far less trouble than I did in Edinburgh and my alcohol consumption has dropped off a cliff as well (and I'm a stereotypical cheapskate Scot). I'm sure this would've been the case had I instead moved to Austria, Germany or Spain too. I really hope the UK binge drinking problem attributable to something simple like licensing hours...
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    I'm interested to see what happens when the London Underground finally starts running all night on Friday and Saturday nights. That should encourage many more pubs and bars to stay open later, and remove the hurry to get home before the last train leaves.
    - smcl 11y ago
      That's a great point, I'll keep an eye on that. I forgot that England has more relaxed licensing hours (I think 24hr licenses are available, but rare), and that for my friends at least any sort of evening shenanigans in the center is limited by the tube closing early-ish.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
I think Scotland is special case in the UK with the influence of the hardline protestant sects. Certainly in England having drink with meals is the majority position I can remember having watered down cider with Sunday lunch from quite an early age.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Grog? At lunch with the kids! Cool.
hibikir 11y ago
And yet, Spaniards drink more alcohol per capita than Britons overall: Just look at the statistics anywhere. it's just that there's less binging. A common Spanish practice, new from the last 20 years or so, is called 'botellon': Youth, from 13-20 or so, who can't afford to drink at bars, purchase cheap spirits or extremely cheaped boxed wine (an euro per liter or less), go to a park, and do nothing but sit and drink. A common brew is the foul calimocho: Empty half of a two liter bottle of Coke, and pour in a liter of extremely cheap wine, with an aftertaste that will not outlast the bubbles. So the kids drink with the family, and then they drink more heavily in the park on weekends. It's not like you can blame them, given the employment situation: 50%+ youth unemployment. Finishing university can just turn you into a NiNi: Ni estudias ni trabajas (You do not study, yet do not have a job) So I'd take the stories of Spaniards about our superior drinking culture with a grain of salt.
- Al-Khwarizmi 11y ago
  I'm from Spain and I spent a couple of years living in the UK, and I think "the stories of Spaniards about our superior drinking culture" are actually very true. Mind you, I'm not a chauvinist, there are very few things where Spain can give the UK any lesson - but this, I think, is one. Yes, alcohol consumption per capita is probably larger in Spain than in the UK, but people mostly know their limits. The transition from social/family drinking to "botellón" is smoother than the typical all-or-nothing transition in the UK. The fact that it's more socially accepted also means that people talk about drinking in a casual way, that your friends or even your family will advise you, etc., so it's much rarer to actually get into serious health problems or become an alcoholic. I was a rather hardcore "botellón"-goer in the 2000s (I think "peak booze" in Spain was more or less in the same date as in the UK), most of my friends were too, and the largest problems anyone had were maybe throwing up and passing out once or twice in 5-10 years of partying. In the UK on the other hand, I met people who drank way less frequently, but the day they did, 90% of the time they weren't able to walk home on their own. It was even worse when they passed some stupid law forcing pubs to stop serving alcohol after 11 pm - some people would gobble up as much booze as they could right before that time, and in less than an hour they would be unconscious. In general, in all the places where I've been, the pattern is the same: in places where alcohol is socially accepted (Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece) I've seen fewer problems with alcohol than in places where it is frowned upon (UK, Sweden, US). In fact, you can even see it inside Spain itself... what nationality are the people who practice "balconing" (getting drunk and jumping off from a balcony or window, often leading to death)? An overwhelming majority of British, with the odd German here and there.
nhebb 11y ago
> talks of a culture that has never made drinking a forbidden fruit I had the same conversation (as a US college student) 24 years ago with my Spanish roommate. Alone, you and I are anecdotes. Together, we're data. ;-)
wodenokoto 11y ago
And then you have Denmark, where it isn't really forbidden fruit either, yet we all drink extremely heavily.

forgetsusername 11y ago

>talks of a culture that has never made drinking a forbidden fruit The same thing is often said about Italy and France. For the life of me I can't recall where I read it (maybe someone can help out), but I've seen that because alcohol isn't treated as a forbidden fruit in such countries, alcoholism is also not treated as a problem, and that rates of it are severely understated. In other words, for example, it's far more socially acceptable to have 3 glasses of wine with your lunch every day in France than in the US.

noxToken 11y ago
Anecdote: Many of my coworkers are from Spain. It is commonly said that two hour lunches with a beer or three are the norm. When I first started, the director took the 5 new hires to lunch, and I recall him stating that he would have bought pitchers for the table if our client was not a stickler about noon drinking. It is also very common for company events (perhaps twice/month on average?) to be held at bars immediately after work. There is no pressure for anyone to participate, but there is definitely an emphasis on drinking.
- mason55 11y ago
  > It is also very common for company events (perhaps twice/month on average?) to be held at bars immediately after work. I mean, I don't think that is necessarily rare in the US either. We have weekly happy hours that get expensed if someone senior enough is there. And we have quarterly company parties that are paid for by the company and are just three hour open bars in a different location each time (boat, bowling, etc).
Retric 11y ago
3 five ounce glasses of wine with lunch is not really that bad for or all that much to drink. At 130+lb you would probably stay under .07 BAC which is still legal to drive in the US. Alcoholism generally involves either heavy drinking or life impairment issues.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Really? That's all you need out of an employee after lunch - that they won't crash their car on the way back? Its inappropriate to do any drinking at lunch, if you have work to return to.
  - Retric 11y ago
    Its inappropriate to do any drinking at lunch That's pure social stigma. There is a vast difference between drinking to intoxication and 2-3 glasses of wine with a meal. It's about as limiting as eating a heavy lunch and spending a few hours digesting.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      There is a vast difference between not drinking at all, and coming back to work muddle-headed and slow. Especially at a technology company. If you're just moving packages between bins in the mail room, ok maybe. But you're for instance checking in to my code base, forget it.
      - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
        You're severely underestimating a lot of people's alcohol tolerance, I think.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        No, I understand that completely. Some folks can look normal, while their critical judgment skills are already compromised. Those with high tolerance are a bigger problem than most.

MrBuddyCasino 11y ago

Same thing in Germany. Wine and Beer is ok from age 16, the hard stuff from age 18. And at least here in the south, there is no big taboo - especially in Bavaria.

arethuza 11y ago

What I noticed at University in Scotland was that people who had started drinking earlier (like most of my friends I started drinking and going to clubs at 16) actually seemed to cope better than people who were completely new to it. That's why I'm actually fairly relaxed about my teenage son (16) drinking occasionally in a reasonably responsible manner.

smcl 11y ago
The other weird thing in Scotland is the panic-buying as various licensing hours end. When buying beer\wine\whatever for a party in Scotland we'd tend to go way overboard - because after 10pm you're out of luck as the off licenses aren't able to sell you any more. Same goes for the midnight/1pm pub closing, once last orders was rung you'd sink your pint and send your mate off to get another. If you wanted to have another couple of beers you'd have to go to a club which really isn't my thing (and anecdotally tended to be where violence tended to be seeded). There's really little opportunity for relaxed social drinking that happens elsewhere in Europe. Here in Czech Republic which is famous for cheap beer and all-night bars I've seen far less trouble than I did in Edinburgh and my alcohol consumption has dropped off a cliff as well (and I'm a stereotypical cheapskate Scot). I'm sure this would've been the case had I instead moved to Austria, Germany or Spain too. I really hope the UK binge drinking problem attributable to something simple like licensing hours...
- Symbiote 11y ago
  I'm interested to see what happens when the London Underground finally starts running all night on Friday and Saturday nights. That should encourage many more pubs and bars to stay open later, and remove the hurry to get home before the last train leaves.
  - smcl 11y ago
    That's a great point, I'll keep an eye on that. I forgot that England has more relaxed licensing hours (I think 24hr licenses are available, but rare), and that for my friends at least any sort of evening shenanigans in the center is limited by the tube closing early-ish.

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

I think Scotland is special case in the UK with the influence of the hardline protestant sects. Certainly in England having drink with meals is the majority position I can remember having watered down cider with Sunday lunch from quite an early age.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Grog? At lunch with the kids! Cool.

hibikir 11y ago

And yet, Spaniards drink more alcohol per capita than Britons overall: Just look at the statistics anywhere. it's just that there's less binging. A common Spanish practice, new from the last 20 years or so, is called 'botellon': Youth, from 13-20 or so, who can't afford to drink at bars, purchase cheap spirits or extremely cheaped boxed wine (an euro per liter or less), go to a park, and do nothing but sit and drink. A common brew is the foul calimocho: Empty half of a two liter bottle of Coke, and pour in a liter of extremely cheap wine, with an aftertaste that will not outlast the bubbles. So the kids drink with the family, and then they drink more heavily in the park on weekends. It's not like you can blame them, given the employment situation: 50%+ youth unemployment. Finishing university can just turn you into a NiNi: Ni estudias ni trabajas (You do not study, yet do not have a job) So I'd take the stories of Spaniards about our superior drinking culture with a grain of salt.

Al-Khwarizmi 11y ago
I'm from Spain and I spent a couple of years living in the UK, and I think "the stories of Spaniards about our superior drinking culture" are actually very true. Mind you, I'm not a chauvinist, there are very few things where Spain can give the UK any lesson - but this, I think, is one. Yes, alcohol consumption per capita is probably larger in Spain than in the UK, but people mostly know their limits. The transition from social/family drinking to "botellón" is smoother than the typical all-or-nothing transition in the UK. The fact that it's more socially accepted also means that people talk about drinking in a casual way, that your friends or even your family will advise you, etc., so it's much rarer to actually get into serious health problems or become an alcoholic. I was a rather hardcore "botellón"-goer in the 2000s (I think "peak booze" in Spain was more or less in the same date as in the UK), most of my friends were too, and the largest problems anyone had were maybe throwing up and passing out once or twice in 5-10 years of partying. In the UK on the other hand, I met people who drank way less frequently, but the day they did, 90% of the time they weren't able to walk home on their own. It was even worse when they passed some stupid law forcing pubs to stop serving alcohol after 11 pm - some people would gobble up as much booze as they could right before that time, and in less than an hour they would be unconscious. In general, in all the places where I've been, the pattern is the same: in places where alcohol is socially accepted (Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece) I've seen fewer problems with alcohol than in places where it is frowned upon (UK, Sweden, US). In fact, you can even see it inside Spain itself... what nationality are the people who practice "balconing" (getting drunk and jumping off from a balcony or window, often leading to death)? An overwhelming majority of British, with the odd German here and there.

nhebb 11y ago

> talks of a culture that has never made drinking a forbidden fruit I had the same conversation (as a US college student) 24 years ago with my Spanish roommate. Alone, you and I are anecdotes. Together, we're data. ;-)

wodenokoto 11y ago

And then you have Denmark, where it isn't really forbidden fruit either, yet we all drink extremely heavily.