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My issue with Bogost's article was that he missed one of the core mentalities that went into designing the game: that you are only the architect. The prison in

My issue with Bogost's article was that he missed one of the core mentalities that went into designing the game: that you are only the architect. The prison industrial complex's main causes aren't rooted in the way prisons are designed and built. > ...but it’s ludicrous to pretend that it makes for a worthwhile study of the 21st-century American prison... But not quite as ludicrous as writing up a profile based on the assumption that it was supposed to be. It's pretentious post modern critique at its worst. Political and cultural criticism is fine, but demanding that things tangentially related to the game's focus be shoehorned in is absolutely ridiculous. I don't see how this is different than criticizing Super Mario Bros. for failing to properly address the realities of life as an working class Italian American.

the_af 11y ago
Oh, I'm not arguing that Bogost's article is flawless. I'm just saying that it's wrong to dismiss it simply because he is not interested in reviewing Prison Architect's gameplay. He has something interesting and valuable to say about prisons and how they are depicted in fiction, though in some aspects I agree his article goes too far. Yes, I don't think anyone else (but Bogost) pretends this game is a "worthwhile study" of American prisons; on the other hand, I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison. I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's, and so I wouldn't expect the same kind of articles written about it.
- searine 11y ago
  >I'm just saying that it's wrong to dismiss it simply because he is not interested in reviewing Prison Architect's gameplay. No I dismiss it because it is a pretentious circlejerk of an article. Someone needs to confiscate his thesaurus. >I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's There are plenty of tropes and power dynamics to analyze in Super Mario Brothers, but that doesn't mean we will derive any value from such analysis. To make something meaningful out of this kind of literary critique you need to consider more than just a single game.
- wdmeldon 11y ago
  I think my biggest issue is how clear it was that he had something to say about the state of American prisons in the 21st century and the depiction of sensitive political topics in video games, then just lopped off all the rest of the context and picked a video game that happened to be about prisons. If you play the game and have listened to what the developers have said, you'd see that these aspects were not a good fit and the developers specifically wanted to distance the player from these realities. The world outside you is a black box from which prisoners flow in and out. How that happens is completely out of your control and knowledge. Bogost's article would not have been particularly interesting or revelatory without the context of a popular, recently released game. Context which he shimmed in to bring attention he wouldn't normally have gotten.
  - the_af 11y ago
    Well, "distancing" the player from the realities of prison life is an interesting decision worth commenting on. It's a valid game design choice, sure -- but it's something that definitely can be talked about in the context of "games as art/culture". I find it interesting, at least. Also, I agree, I too get the vibe that Bogost wanted to talk primarily about the state of American prisons, but this didn't bother me because I wasn't expecting a game review with a final score and a "buy/do not buy" recommendation, and I found some of his points had merit.
- librvf 11y ago
  > I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison. It's a point in the sense of being the dogmas of a pundit who disguises his propaganda using the form of a game criticism. > I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's, and so I wouldn't expect the same kind of articles written about it. Personally I would be mildly surprised to NOT find a kotaku article that uses a mario game as a flimsy excuse to make some completely irrelevant point or sensational hook that the writer (or editor) wanted to make anyway. > I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison. According to you. The idea that a game about prison HAS to address race is the dogma. That's the preaching. That not only has nothing to do with making games that are fun and entertaining, but it also has nothing to do with a true artistic culture (rather than a circle-jerking pseudo-intellectual culture of criticism) PS http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon1022hm.html http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon1022hm.html
  - the_af 11y ago
    > It's a point in the sense of being the dogmas of a pundit who disguises his propaganda using the form of a game criticism. I'm confused. Are you saying you think that race isn't a crucial part of prison life? Or are you saying it is, but that it's dogmatic propaganda for someone to point out racism is absent in a computer game about prison? > According to you. The idea that a game about prison HAS to address race is the dogma. Well, I didn't write the article; I merely said I think the author has a point. No, no game HAS to do anything. But it's conspicuous when it does/doesn't do certain things. This can be discussed because it's an interesting aspect. That's all.
    - librvf 11y ago
      You can tell it's propaganda because of the rampant question-begging. The author isn't "simply pointing out racism is absent in the game." Here is a direct quote from the Kotaku article: In the same interview he also admits that, in the U.K., incarceration is not a major issue with huge class and racial implications as it is in the U.S.. Thus, as Brits, they may see the world in a different way. Note the presupposition: Incaceration in the US has class and race implications. That is the dogma. That is the "message." The next several paragraphs discusses the state of prisons in the US, linking to biased sources with sensational language like "out of control." Now, you could claim that this tangent is needed to establish the relevance of the subject, but the manner it is presented strongly points to the fact that this is simply a propaganda payload. There's this: The America justice system disproportionately and purposely targets minorities, which make up about 60% of the population behind the bars, according to the Center for American Progress. Again this is propaganda. Question-begging. This isn't part of some kind of intellectually open enquiry about prisons, video games about prisons, or even prison simulations. This is one-sided preaching about a subject completely unrelated to videogames. > Well, I didn't write the article; I merely said I think the author has a point You did phrase a portion of comment in a way that took responsibility for the idea. Obviously incarceration in the US is racist, right? We're talking about how a videogame designer chose not to focus on this obvious truth about how incarceration is racist especially in the US. PS to whoever is downvoting me: I have made my post less sarcastic. I will endeavor to be more respectful however it is worth anyone's time to study propaganda and how it works, so as not to be so easily fooled. It's important to be able to recognize it and not excuse it with "oh he's just pointing out <etc.>"

the_af 11y ago

Oh, I'm not arguing that Bogost's article is flawless. I'm just saying that it's wrong to dismiss it simply because he is not interested in reviewing Prison Architect's gameplay. He has something interesting and valuable to say about prisons and how they are depicted in fiction, though in some aspects I agree his article goes too far. Yes, I don't think anyone else (but Bogost) pretends this game is a "worthwhile study" of American prisons; on the other hand, I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison. I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's, and so I wouldn't expect the same kind of articles written about it.

searine 11y ago
>I'm just saying that it's wrong to dismiss it simply because he is not interested in reviewing Prison Architect's gameplay. No I dismiss it because it is a pretentious circlejerk of an article. Someone needs to confiscate his thesaurus. >I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's There are plenty of tropes and power dynamics to analyze in Super Mario Brothers, but that doesn't mean we will derive any value from such analysis. To make something meaningful out of this kind of literary critique you need to consider more than just a single game.
wdmeldon 11y ago
I think my biggest issue is how clear it was that he had something to say about the state of American prisons in the 21st century and the depiction of sensitive political topics in video games, then just lopped off all the rest of the context and picked a video game that happened to be about prisons. If you play the game and have listened to what the developers have said, you'd see that these aspects were not a good fit and the developers specifically wanted to distance the player from these realities. The world outside you is a black box from which prisoners flow in and out. How that happens is completely out of your control and knowledge. Bogost's article would not have been particularly interesting or revelatory without the context of a popular, recently released game. Context which he shimmed in to bring attention he wouldn't normally have gotten.
- the_af 11y ago
  Well, "distancing" the player from the realities of prison life is an interesting decision worth commenting on. It's a valid game design choice, sure -- but it's something that definitely can be talked about in the context of "games as art/culture". I find it interesting, at least. Also, I agree, I too get the vibe that Bogost wanted to talk primarily about the state of American prisons, but this didn't bother me because I wasn't expecting a game review with a final score and a "buy/do not buy" recommendation, and I found some of his points had merit.
librvf 11y ago
> I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison. It's a point in the sense of being the dogmas of a pundit who disguises his propaganda using the form of a game criticism. > I don't think Super Mario Bros' subject matter is comparable to Prison Architect's, and so I wouldn't expect the same kind of articles written about it. Personally I would be mildly surprised to NOT find a kotaku article that uses a mario game as a flimsy excuse to make some completely irrelevant point or sensational hook that the writer (or editor) wanted to make anyway. > I think he has a point about the absence of race and racism as gameplay elements being very conspicuous in a game about prison. According to you. The idea that a game about prison HAS to address race is the dogma. That's the preaching. That not only has nothing to do with making games that are fun and entertaining, but it also has nothing to do with a true artistic culture (rather than a circle-jerking pseudo-intellectual culture of criticism) PS http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon1022hm.html http://www.city-journal.org/2015/eon1022hm.html
- the_af 11y ago
  > It's a point in the sense of being the dogmas of a pundit who disguises his propaganda using the form of a game criticism. I'm confused. Are you saying you think that race isn't a crucial part of prison life? Or are you saying it is, but that it's dogmatic propaganda for someone to point out racism is absent in a computer game about prison? > According to you. The idea that a game about prison HAS to address race is the dogma. Well, I didn't write the article; I merely said I think the author has a point. No, no game HAS to do anything. But it's conspicuous when it does/doesn't do certain things. This can be discussed because it's an interesting aspect. That's all.
  - librvf 11y ago
    You can tell it's propaganda because of the rampant question-begging. The author isn't "simply pointing out racism is absent in the game." Here is a direct quote from the Kotaku article: In the same interview he also admits that, in the U.K., incarceration is not a major issue with huge class and racial implications as it is in the U.S.. Thus, as Brits, they may see the world in a different way. Note the presupposition: Incaceration in the US has class and race implications. That is the dogma. That is the "message." The next several paragraphs discusses the state of prisons in the US, linking to biased sources with sensational language like "out of control." Now, you could claim that this tangent is needed to establish the relevance of the subject, but the manner it is presented strongly points to the fact that this is simply a propaganda payload. There's this: The America justice system disproportionately and purposely targets minorities, which make up about 60% of the population behind the bars, according to the Center for American Progress. Again this is propaganda. Question-begging. This isn't part of some kind of intellectually open enquiry about prisons, video games about prisons, or even prison simulations. This is one-sided preaching about a subject completely unrelated to videogames. > Well, I didn't write the article; I merely said I think the author has a point You did phrase a portion of comment in a way that took responsibility for the idea. Obviously incarceration in the US is racist, right? We're talking about how a videogame designer chose not to focus on this obvious truth about how incarceration is racist especially in the US. PS to whoever is downvoting me: I have made my post less sarcastic. I will endeavor to be more respectful however it is worth anyone's time to study propaganda and how it works, so as not to be so easily fooled. It's important to be able to recognize it and not excuse it with "oh he's just pointing out <etc.>"