11 ms·

The Two Asian Americas

138 points by lermontov 11y ago

rainhacker 11y ago
Sadly, that uneasy agitation I felt after reading the article was mollified when I read the experiences of others in the comments. I am not the only one, not alone. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
lordnacho 11y ago
One of the weirdest things I've found about America as someone who grew up in Europe is racial segregation. When I look on Facebook pictures of my european friends, they tend to be in a big mix of colors. Sure, there's more Indians at an Indian wedding in London, but you will see the little gang of white/east asian/black kids there too. Go to a majority (ie white) wedding and you will see they have a bunch of Indian/Chinese/Black etc friends. When I look on the Facebook pictures of American friends, they are quite clearly color segregated. I really find it odd that out of maybe 300 guests at a wedding in SF, only a couple are not from the same minority. America is also the country where I've found the strongest racial stereotypes. In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, but when I went to a comedy night in NYC, the guy looked at me and said "Why aren't you doing homework?". Funny, sure, but it says something about what the audience already believes about various people.
- Swizec 11y ago
  I too have noticed the same. While the part of Europe I come from is completely white for various reasons, nobody really cares about race. If anything we'll make jokes about ethnicity. But they're only jokes, no systemic segregation happening. Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race. Even in what is supposed to be their most progressive city - SF - it's just about race race race. Even street comedians/entertainers will play the race card every two minutes. Honestly, it's boring. I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. Focus on that part.
  - chimeracoder 11y ago
    > I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. This is a very European attitude, to the point where four European countries have gone so far as to remove the word "race" from their lawbooks[0]. The problem is that removing actual racism isn't as easy as simply erasing the word, and by removing the word, we remove the ability to take effective action to combat racism. This isn't turning 'class warfare into race warfare'. Masking racism in this way makes it impossible to address, and thereby perpetuates racism. [0] e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/francois-hollande-race-french-constitution http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/francoi...
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - sinatra 11y ago
    > While the part of Europe I come from is completely white for various reasons, nobody really cares about race. Maybe because in a homogeneous society, there's no reason to talk about race. > Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race. Maybe because unlike the parts in Europe that you mentioned (which were completely white), there are different races here. > You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. Focus on that part. People here are NOT discussing race because they want to change their races. They are discussing race because just like sexism, homophobia, etc, racism against anyone (even if they're doing well professionally) is something to highlight, acknowledge and work towards getting rid of. I'll certainly want to be in a country that actively talks about race than a country that doesn't. If you think not talking about race means there's no or less racism in Europe, then just look at soccer / football.
- aznpwnzor 11y ago
  Segregation is often self-imposed. As an Asian-American, I often can't relate with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded? hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. The only way this segregation has to do with race is that stereotypes are exactly that, true for a distribution. Another way to say this is that people I end up relating well with tend to come from the same experiences (namely that of growing up Asian-American). In addition, I'm often super surprised at these comments. The US is many orders of magnitude less accepting of racism than Europe. Europeans on the whole speak freely of their negative opinions of Muslims and gypsies. In the US, any comment mentioning race carries immediately with it a negative connotation. This is exactly why it is the breadstuff of comedians. There is no humor in something that is simply accepted as "truth" as much of European racism is. I hate speaking anecdotally, but just as a credit to my experience with racism in Europe as an Asian-American, my time there was filled with experiences ranging from ignorance to aggressive defensiveness. Most of this can be explained away as just inexperience due to Europe's immense racial homogeneity. Often they would treat me as a fob which was an acceptable assumption. But this just goes to show how behind Europe is in the racial conversation (they don't even have racial experiences!)
  - random_32467 11y ago
    >I often can't relate with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded? hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. Interesting. Do you personally think that if a white person were to express similar sentiments, he would be guilty of racism?
    - aznpwnzor 11y ago
      I'm trying to construct the similar sentiments you are asking me to. Let me know if this is correct. > I often can't relate with asian people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (why is there chinese school on saturday? what is discipline by disappointment? no privacy?) and although I have many close asian friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. I'm not sure why I would think that is racist.
- tootie 11y ago
  It's funny, but I would have said the exact opposite. Not sure what part of Europe you've lived in, but I found the UK to be very segregated compared to New York. There's a sense that anyone was welcome in Britain, but immigrants could never really be British.
- song 11y ago
  In Europe, capitals tend to have a much less racist behavior. If you go to Paris or London, for example, then I agree with you and it's true that you have less segregation and a tendency not to have strong racism (but even then it depends of which minority you're part of... Muslims tend to have a harder time even in capitals compared to all other minorities) However, if you go to the small cities, then racism is very prevalent. My wife is asian and when we're in small cities in France (Nantes, Rennes, Rouen, Toulouse, ...) it often happens that people speak to me but behave as if she were transparent. They just completely ignore her as if she weren't there. It also shows in term of votes with smaller cities tending to vote for parties like the French FN.
- vacri 11y ago
  > In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, The BBC has plenty of comedy where racial stereotypes are commonplace. Even the great lefty Stephen Fry has them on his QI show, as he makes jokes about 'dagos' and Alan does his shitty Mexican "speedy gonzales" joke accents. Occasionally you'll see a Welsh celebrity arc up over the incessant sheep-shagging jokes as well. I can't speak for European standup per se (or continental fare), but I can speak to the BBC tv episodes that get shipped over here. One thing that stood out for me was that I remember seeing John Oliver call out Dara O'Briain on Mock the Week for making racist French jokes (on the smelly/don't wash stereotype) and now Oliver has his own show in the US, he's constantly using racist stereotypes in his skits. Racial stereotypes seem to be pretty hard to get out of comedy, even amongst the more highbrow comedians...
- awl130 11y ago
  Saying europe has better race relations than america is misguided. you can't compare the two. america has 300 million people and is 70% white, 15% black, 12-20% latino and 6% asian. for comparison, the UK has 60mm (about the size of california and new york) and is 87% white, 7% asian and 6% black, for example. the UK is also what we call an urbanized ountry, in that a large proportion lives in cities, which is where most of its people of color reside. it is easier to integrate urban, small countries with manageable percentage of immigrants. e.g., Sweden (population 10mm) versus america (pop 300mm). when you have a large land mass, enormous population and very high rates of immigration and naturalization (let's not forget that France and Germany do not allow as much naturalization as USA), the task of integration is that much harder and more complex.
  - gotchange 11y ago
    Funny how in America they classify Arab people or more accurately native Arabic speakers as white when it is actually not accurate at all and it just shows how ridiculous these designations or labels are. At least, let them get their racial terms or classifications right before they could start muddying the water hype up racial tensions between communities.
    - awl130 11y ago
      America's racial classifications follow a very practical application rather than some grand racial theory. this is a good thing, because as we know race is more a phenotype than genotype. thus arabs are grouped with whites because, according to traditional racial classification, they are caucasoids. there has been no adjustment to this because immigration from the middle east has not been a huge number since those days. indians (south asians), also considered caucasoids in the 19th century system, are however lump-summed with asians (mostly mongoloids), for practical reasons. the practical reason has to do with socio-politics. for now, indians have similar immigration and social characteristics in common with east asians. thus categorizing them together has a practical purpose with respect to social services, immigration policy, etc. as you can see, classification is a tricky problem. america's classification is constantly evolving. every 10 years america takes a census and every time there is a change in the boxes for race categories. this is an attempt to keep pace with changing views. it's not a perfect system but it's not bad. it certainly beats france's system (which literally ignores all racial categories according to principle--leading to all manner of unintended negative consequences including inequality towards recent immigrants or citizens of color).
otoburb 11y ago
>>In the eyes of some, Asians in America are, Lee writes, “perpetual foreigners at worst, or probationary Americans at best.” If Asians sometimes remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice. A racial epithet was thrown at me and my family in parting by a homeless person last year while crossing the intersection in my neighborhood, which we shrugged off. This quote prompted the memory again, and I think that Asians in Western countries may remain silent also because causing a scene is, in general, considered "unseemly" when little is perceived to be gained. I originally felt this to be a rather rational response for anybody else (regardless of their race), but when placed against the backdrop of the Immigration and Nationality Act of '65 mentioned in the article, I'm considering a different response the next time, although I sincerely hopefully there won't be a next time. Makes one almost laugh good-naturedly at serious and systematic Canadian Québécois policies devoted to keeping the French language alive in Canada. I much rather prefer intense debates around language over race. EDIT: I grew up in the Middle East, where racism is overt. In Saudi Arabia (for example), your salary for the exact same job is to a large extent determined by your passport nationality. I grew up expecting it there; but it always give me pause when encountering racism in a Western country.
- sliverstorm 11y ago
  As a male WASP, why would you bother with what a homeless person thinks of you? I too ignore the angry hateful ones. They hate me too, though they may lack epithets for me. It's a pointless unwinnable argument, and you'll never look like the good guy, yelling at a homeless person
  - chimeracoder 11y ago
    There's a very good chance I'll get downvoted for this, but what the heck: > As a male WASP, why would you bother with what a homeless person thinks of you? I too ignore the angry vitrolic ones. They hate me too, though they may lack epithets for me. It's a pointless unwinnable argument, and you'll never look like the good guy, yelling at a homeless person The answer is in the original comment >> If Asians sometimes remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice. Asian-Americans are told by others all their life that it's uncouth to speak out about injustices that happen to them. Ironically, the first comment on an article that discusses this point mentions one of these injustices, and the first reply is a comment that suggests that they should remain silent about it instead. It's one thing to remain silent as a conscious decision not to want to look like the "bad guy", but it's an entirely different thing to remain silent as a conscious (or unconscious) reaction to the societal role that you've been conditioned to.
kelukelugames 11y ago
I moved to the US in 1992 at the age of 9. It took me more than a decade to feel like an American. To feel like I belonged. Took just a few racist comments from my co workers to take that feeling away. Yup, probationary American at best.
- zhemao 11y ago
  That really sucks, dude. I'm sorry your coworkers are such assholes. My situation was similar. I came to the US in '94 when I was 3 years old. Being one of very few Asian kids in mostly White schools was not fun. But thankfully, I haven't personally experienced any overt racism since graduating from high school.
  - kelukelugames 11y ago
    Thanks for the support. :) The sad part is most of them are nice people. They just lack life experience. It's almost comical. One guy got offended when heard that a black director made a movie called "Dear White People". :/
  - potatolicious 11y ago
    Similar story for me here (8 years-old, 1994), but the sad thing is maybe his coworkers weren't trying to be assholes. It doesn't even take something particularly racist to really bring things to a distilled clarity - it's not that they hate you or hate your race, but the realization that no matter what you do, what beer you drink, what work you do, what organizations you work with, where you live, or anything else, they will never see you as an authentic American. (or in my case, Canadian, bah details) That's the part that stings the most, not the vicious racists spewing hate at me, but the knowledge that everyday, reasonable people will never fully accept me as an authentic Canadian, and they see no problem with it.
rememberlenny 11y ago
[off topic: Im on the New Yorker tech team] We just launched a feature called "remind to read", that lets users send themselves a reminder email about content. Depending on where you trigger the service, the reminder email will send you back to where you were. To see it while reading, scroll up. A module appears in the bottom righthand corner. It launched last Thursday. I'd love to hear everyones thoughts!
- linkregister 11y ago
  On my browser, it pops up and immediately down. I can't ever use it. [browser version removed]
  - rememberlenny 11y ago
    Will fix! Thank you
- it_learnses 11y ago
  What would be very useful is an "update reminder" feature where if some information in the article is updated (maybe a couple days or a few years) later, a reminder is sent.
  - rememberlenny 11y ago
    Thats a great idea! Have you seen newsdiffs?
    - it_learnses 11y ago
      nope, but i will. Thanks :)
- benbreen 11y ago
  Just noticed that while reading this very article - I think it's a good idea, relatively unobtrusively implemented.
happyscrappy 11y ago
I am not sure of the point here. I think we have to help those that need help first, I mean what are we going to do start pushing for increased aid for those of Irish descent.
- qiqing 11y ago
  People often forget that systemic racism against Asian Americans is also racism. That's part of the point. That you can do everything right and have things go reasonably well, but have it all taken away from you because of the color of your skin. Like the physicist who was innocent but had his family dragged through an espionage trial because the officials didn't even bother to consult experts in the field.
  - it_learnses 11y ago
    I'm not sure if that was necessarily racism though. I think because China is now seen more and more as an enemy and the professor was born in China, maybe that's why. Not excusing the the FBI, just questioning whether racism was at play. What if it had been a white Russian scientist? Would it have been different?
    - Apocryphon 11y ago
      Does that happen to Russian scientists in America often, though? Because there is precedence for baseless accusations against professors from China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_t...
      - kelukelugames 11y ago
        Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage This is literally the definition of racial profiling.
beachstartup 11y ago
> say that they would never date an asian guy as an asian guy, let me just say that quite frankly, the solution to this is to 1. be attractive, and 2. don't be unattractive. lift weights, dress well, have cool hobbies, make money. girls say a lot of things due to social pressure but when the chips are on the table you can't negotiate attraction. it's subconscious.
- huac 11y ago
  I mean...the point is that even the 'subconscious' is socially trained. In an environment where every 'People's Sexiest Man Alive' is white 30 years running (fine, Denzel got a token shoutout), where your only Asians in movies are comic relief or simply straight up belittled, there is a very real Eurocentric training. And what constitutes a cool hobby? If attraction is subconscious (or love at first sight?), what does it matter if I play semi-pro badminton vs semi-pro lacrosse? There is much more at work than 'being attractive' when that standard of beauty's defined by forces way outside your control.
  - deleted 11y ago
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  - beachstartup 11y ago
    if it's outside of your control, what good does complaining do? try action instead. find a mission in life. this entire mindset reeks of external validation-seeking. if you think people's sexiest list is going to stop you from getting your desired results, then it most certainly will. i'm sorry to be such a bro, but i suggest you go lift. it will help clear your mind of such petty nonsense.
    - yarou 11y ago
      I don't think anybody is complaining that aesthetic preferences are derived and shaped from pop culture. Rather, it's important to understand what subconsciously influences people, so one might make sense of the seemingly counterintuitive results one has when it comes to the fairer sex.
seivan 11y ago
You went full Marxism never go full Marxism. You also seem to have a chip on your shoulder. This isn't a structural racism. You want that; try being Philippino in Japan or Chinese in Indonesia/Malaysia. You live in the US. It's getting sad. You want a middle eastern lead role? Plenty of middle eastern movies for you to choose from. Start here https://twitter.com/kurdomed/status/658782447153381377 https://twitter.com/kurdomed/status/658782447153381377
- huac 11y ago
  Uh...have you read Marx or my comment? You're really off base with the ad homs. Also, (Han) Chinese descendants control the majority of the Indonesian and Malaysian economies. This can't be a serious comment. You're blind to what that tweet means: want ME leads? watch middle eastern movies, at this specialized movie exhibition. don't go to the movie theaters though! I very clearly meant Hollywood, our arbiter of American taste.
  - jquery 11y ago
    Hollywood doesn't determine that, though. They're less of an arbiter than a mirror. They're a business, they follow the money, and they'll cast whoever will make them the most. It sounds nice to say "let's have more asians" but when the box office results suffer from it, why should they? It's unreasonable to expect them to take financial losses, or to forego profit.
    - huac 11y ago
      it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - when society is conditioned to only accept clooney/damon/etc-types in leading roles, then of course the focus groups will 'prefer' a white vs minority lead actor. the first step to changing that is understanding the past - so it's kind of moot whether hollywood reflects or decides. we can, of course, make a converse economic argument. if we "have more asians" then that changes what people think of movies / culture. the industry might make less in the short-term, but in the long-term, having more diverse casts on screen opens up more diverse markets, foreign and domestic.
Torgo 11y ago
I, like I suspect most Americans, do not see Arabs, Sikhs or Indians as "Asian". Isn't this more of a Britishism?
- walshemj 11y ago
  Yes as a result of the empire if a British person and British Asians says Asian they mean for the Indian sub continent or those Asians ethnically cleansed from Africa in the 60's and 70's
- takee 11y ago
  You do know that India is in Asia, right? Also, Sikhs more often than not are Indians. Sikhism just like many of the world's other religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism) was born in India.
  - douche 11y ago
    For Americans, "Asian" usually means the people we fought with or against in the Pacific in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. For a significant fraction of Americans "Indian" evokes visions of cowboy antagonists or casinos, rather than the Taj Mahal. That's not politically correct, but that is what it is...
    - takee 11y ago
      Well, in that case this needs to change, because it is just not correct and offends both "Indian" Indians and native americans.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  Where do you live?
jmspring 11y ago
Depending on where you live in the states, you can see many different scenarios play out. California, specifically Silicon Valley, is definitely a melting pot. I was born and raised in the Bay Area and have seen differing scenarios play out. During high school living in the East Bay, an african american friend (who came from money) was regularly followed and occasionally pulled over because he was in a nice car and driving through nice neighborhoods (where he lived). Working in a semiconductor startup many moons ago, a lot of the Chinese hardware engineers kept to themselves and didn't interact outside their group. Living in Santa Cruz, the "minority" population is primarily Hispanic. I can't speak to the schools, but many many keep to their groups and don't make an effort to integrate into the community as a whole. Maybe it is dual sided racism, but ethnic groups that live in large numbers and don't become part of the overall community and instead build their own island for me is just as problematic as a society that isn't open to others joining and becoming part of the whole. This is not to say that culture and history should not be preserved, practiced, etc. but moving somewhere and excluding yourself from the community as a whole is also problematic.
- IndianAstronaut 11y ago
  Everyone forgets the flip side of the integration problem. The majority group needs to be welcoming of minority groups or else they will seek out their own. Interracial friendships, dating, etc are still not the norm. A lot of that is due to subtle exclusion of other groups.
  - jquery 11y ago
    > The majority group needs to be welcoming of minority groups Can be hard when the minority group prefers to speak in a different language. It's give-and-take. Often minority groups are just fine balkanizing instead of making the effort to integrate. And the minorities are often walking a tightrope between their parents and the majority culture which makes it hard to bridge this gap. So they find it easier just finding people in the same situation. That's why integration often takes generations, and typically takes longer the larger the minority.
  - nitwit005 11y ago
analyst74 11y ago
Racism against asians is delicate. It's not like overt and violent racisms black people face, where it's easy to recognize and be dealt with. Take one example. If you denounce your own color, you are quickly accepted and praised for being funny and unbiased; if you speak up about the injustices, you get labeled as too sensitive, confrontational and quickly cast off. It's funny to see so many Asian Americans hating their own kin, they just unconsciously internalized those behaviours because doing so gives them social credit.
- chillacy 11y ago
  On this topic, I think Malcolm X had some wisdom on the phenomenon of self hate and mental colonization. > Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the color of your skin? To such extent you bleach, to get like the white man. Who taught you to hate the shape of your nose and the shape of your lips? Who taught you to hate yourself from the top of your head to the soles of your feet? Who taught you to hate your own kind? Who taught you to hate the race that you belong to so much so that you don't want to be around each other? No... Before you come asking Mr. Muhammad does he teach hate, you should ask yourself who taught you to hate being what God made you. > You go into China and find a Chinese man that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture, he’ll paint Jesus looking like a Chinese man. You go up to Alaska and find an Eskimo that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture of Jesus, he’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like an Eskimo. You come back here to America and find a white man that believes in Jesus he’ll paint Jesus looking like a white man. Go inside a Negro church who believes in Jesus and ask them to paint a picture of Jesus, they’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like the white man. That’s what you call integration.
tn13 11y ago
I am Indian. Honestly I don't really care about some white American calling me cow worshiping heathen. (which I am). What I find remarkable is the law and policies which are racist in nature. Asian Americans are never considered a minority in the popular discourse where as Blacks and Hispanics are considered as minority. But given all that, I do think it is in America's interest to control who comes to USA and who does not and there is nothing wrong in passing laws that might prohibit any kind of migration to the country. What matters however is that when a personal lawfully gets naturalized he/she must be treated as just any other American.
eric-hu 11y ago
This story hits close to home for me. Up until recently this year, I pointed to many things in my life except myself as the reason for me not being a self-actualized Asian American. My internal heckles followed the pattern of "I'm XYZ, so I can't [fit in with this social group, be attractive to her, etc]" where XYZ included: - too short - Asian - not interested in sports - a gamer - too poor/cheap One day I realized I can't change how I feel at the moment, but I can choose what to do in reaction. If I buy into the feeling's line of reasoning, I'm keeping my situation the same. If I'm honest with myself, I'm usually not thinking such things because I'm happy with the status quo. Complaints about the status quo are useful if they lead to action, but until then they're an energy sink.
digitalzombie 11y ago
I grew up as the few asians in a hispanic/latino whatever neighborhood. Yeah, there are racism when you're the minority. There are racism everywhere, you learn real quick to either work with what you got or cry about it. Maybe white have it better. It doesn't matter, you work with what you got and ignore all the hater. America can always be better but it does give you the ability to move up in class wise and a great country. Oh but you know what? I knew an Asian girl attending my university. She was born in the 1990s, and her family photo is like a college text book. Bunch of mixed races, white, black, asian, and hispanic. Turns out her uncles and aunts marry outside of their race. It's all good.

138 points by lermontov 11y ago

Sadly, that uneasy agitation I felt after reading the article was mollified when I read the experiences of others in the comments. I am not the only one, not alone. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

lordnacho 11y ago

One of the weirdest things I've found about America as someone who grew up in Europe is racial segregation. When I look on Facebook pictures of my european friends, they tend to be in a big mix of colors. Sure, there's more Indians at an Indian wedding in London, but you will see the little gang of white/east asian/black kids there too. Go to a majority (ie white) wedding and you will see they have a bunch of Indian/Chinese/Black etc friends. When I look on the Facebook pictures of American friends, they are quite clearly color segregated. I really find it odd that out of maybe 300 guests at a wedding in SF, only a couple are not from the same minority. America is also the country where I've found the strongest racial stereotypes. In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, but when I went to a comedy night in NYC, the guy looked at me and said "Why aren't you doing homework?". Funny, sure, but it says something about what the audience already believes about various people.

Swizec 11y ago
I too have noticed the same. While the part of Europe I come from is completely white for various reasons, nobody really cares about race. If anything we'll make jokes about ethnicity. But they're only jokes, no systemic segregation happening. Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race. Even in what is supposed to be their most progressive city - SF - it's just about race race race. Even street comedians/entertainers will play the race card every two minutes. Honestly, it's boring. I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. Focus on that part.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. This is a very European attitude, to the point where four European countries have gone so far as to remove the word "race" from their lawbooks[0]. The problem is that removing actual racism isn't as easy as simply erasing the word, and by removing the word, we remove the ability to take effective action to combat racism. This isn't turning 'class warfare into race warfare'. Masking racism in this way makes it impossible to address, and thereby perpetuates racism. [0] e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/francois-hollande-race-french-constitution http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/francoi...
  - deleted 11y ago
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- sinatra 11y ago
  > While the part of Europe I come from is completely white for various reasons, nobody really cares about race. Maybe because in a homogeneous society, there's no reason to talk about race. > Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race. Maybe because unlike the parts in Europe that you mentioned (which were completely white), there are different races here. > You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. Focus on that part. People here are NOT discussing race because they want to change their races. They are discussing race because just like sexism, homophobia, etc, racism against anyone (even if they're doing well professionally) is something to highlight, acknowledge and work towards getting rid of. I'll certainly want to be in a country that actively talks about race than a country that doesn't. If you think not talking about race means there's no or less racism in Europe, then just look at soccer / football.
aznpwnzor 11y ago
Segregation is often self-imposed. As an Asian-American, I often can't relate with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded? hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. The only way this segregation has to do with race is that stereotypes are exactly that, true for a distribution. Another way to say this is that people I end up relating well with tend to come from the same experiences (namely that of growing up Asian-American). In addition, I'm often super surprised at these comments. The US is many orders of magnitude less accepting of racism than Europe. Europeans on the whole speak freely of their negative opinions of Muslims and gypsies. In the US, any comment mentioning race carries immediately with it a negative connotation. This is exactly why it is the breadstuff of comedians. There is no humor in something that is simply accepted as "truth" as much of European racism is. I hate speaking anecdotally, but just as a credit to my experience with racism in Europe as an Asian-American, my time there was filled with experiences ranging from ignorance to aggressive defensiveness. Most of this can be explained away as just inexperience due to Europe's immense racial homogeneity. Often they would treat me as a fob which was an acceptable assumption. But this just goes to show how behind Europe is in the racial conversation (they don't even have racial experiences!)
- random_32467 11y ago
  >I often can't relate with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded? hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. Interesting. Do you personally think that if a white person were to express similar sentiments, he would be guilty of racism?
  - aznpwnzor 11y ago
    I'm trying to construct the similar sentiments you are asking me to. Let me know if this is correct. > I often can't relate with asian people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (why is there chinese school on saturday? what is discipline by disappointment? no privacy?) and although I have many close asian friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. I'm not sure why I would think that is racist.
tootie 11y ago
It's funny, but I would have said the exact opposite. Not sure what part of Europe you've lived in, but I found the UK to be very segregated compared to New York. There's a sense that anyone was welcome in Britain, but immigrants could never really be British.
song 11y ago
In Europe, capitals tend to have a much less racist behavior. If you go to Paris or London, for example, then I agree with you and it's true that you have less segregation and a tendency not to have strong racism (but even then it depends of which minority you're part of... Muslims tend to have a harder time even in capitals compared to all other minorities) However, if you go to the small cities, then racism is very prevalent. My wife is asian and when we're in small cities in France (Nantes, Rennes, Rouen, Toulouse, ...) it often happens that people speak to me but behave as if she were transparent. They just completely ignore her as if she weren't there. It also shows in term of votes with smaller cities tending to vote for parties like the French FN.
vacri 11y ago
> In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, The BBC has plenty of comedy where racial stereotypes are commonplace. Even the great lefty Stephen Fry has them on his QI show, as he makes jokes about 'dagos' and Alan does his shitty Mexican "speedy gonzales" joke accents. Occasionally you'll see a Welsh celebrity arc up over the incessant sheep-shagging jokes as well. I can't speak for European standup per se (or continental fare), but I can speak to the BBC tv episodes that get shipped over here. One thing that stood out for me was that I remember seeing John Oliver call out Dara O'Briain on Mock the Week for making racist French jokes (on the smelly/don't wash stereotype) and now Oliver has his own show in the US, he's constantly using racist stereotypes in his skits. Racial stereotypes seem to be pretty hard to get out of comedy, even amongst the more highbrow comedians...
awl130 11y ago
Saying europe has better race relations than america is misguided. you can't compare the two. america has 300 million people and is 70% white, 15% black, 12-20% latino and 6% asian. for comparison, the UK has 60mm (about the size of california and new york) and is 87% white, 7% asian and 6% black, for example. the UK is also what we call an urbanized ountry, in that a large proportion lives in cities, which is where most of its people of color reside. it is easier to integrate urban, small countries with manageable percentage of immigrants. e.g., Sweden (population 10mm) versus america (pop 300mm). when you have a large land mass, enormous population and very high rates of immigration and naturalization (let's not forget that France and Germany do not allow as much naturalization as USA), the task of integration is that much harder and more complex.
- gotchange 11y ago
  Funny how in America they classify Arab people or more accurately native Arabic speakers as white when it is actually not accurate at all and it just shows how ridiculous these designations or labels are. At least, let them get their racial terms or classifications right before they could start muddying the water hype up racial tensions between communities.
  - awl130 11y ago
    America's racial classifications follow a very practical application rather than some grand racial theory. this is a good thing, because as we know race is more a phenotype than genotype. thus arabs are grouped with whites because, according to traditional racial classification, they are caucasoids. there has been no adjustment to this because immigration from the middle east has not been a huge number since those days. indians (south asians), also considered caucasoids in the 19th century system, are however lump-summed with asians (mostly mongoloids), for practical reasons. the practical reason has to do with socio-politics. for now, indians have similar immigration and social characteristics in common with east asians. thus categorizing them together has a practical purpose with respect to social services, immigration policy, etc. as you can see, classification is a tricky problem. america's classification is constantly evolving. every 10 years america takes a census and every time there is a change in the boxes for race categories. this is an attempt to keep pace with changing views. it's not a perfect system but it's not bad. it certainly beats france's system (which literally ignores all racial categories according to principle--leading to all manner of unintended negative consequences including inequality towards recent immigrants or citizens of color).

otoburb 11y ago

>>In the eyes of some, Asians in America are, Lee writes, “perpetual foreigners at worst, or probationary Americans at best.” If Asians sometimes remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice. A racial epithet was thrown at me and my family in parting by a homeless person last year while crossing the intersection in my neighborhood, which we shrugged off. This quote prompted the memory again, and I think that Asians in Western countries may remain silent also because causing a scene is, in general, considered "unseemly" when little is perceived to be gained. I originally felt this to be a rather rational response for anybody else (regardless of their race), but when placed against the backdrop of the Immigration and Nationality Act of '65 mentioned in the article, I'm considering a different response the next time, although I sincerely hopefully there won't be a next time. Makes one almost laugh good-naturedly at serious and systematic Canadian Québécois policies devoted to keeping the French language alive in Canada. I much rather prefer intense debates around language over race. EDIT: I grew up in the Middle East, where racism is overt. In Saudi Arabia (for example), your salary for the exact same job is to a large extent determined by your passport nationality. I grew up expecting it there; but it always give me pause when encountering racism in a Western country.

sliverstorm 11y ago
As a male WASP, why would you bother with what a homeless person thinks of you? I too ignore the angry hateful ones. They hate me too, though they may lack epithets for me. It's a pointless unwinnable argument, and you'll never look like the good guy, yelling at a homeless person
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  There's a very good chance I'll get downvoted for this, but what the heck: > As a male WASP, why would you bother with what a homeless person thinks of you? I too ignore the angry vitrolic ones. They hate me too, though they may lack epithets for me. It's a pointless unwinnable argument, and you'll never look like the good guy, yelling at a homeless person The answer is in the original comment >> If Asians sometimes remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice. Asian-Americans are told by others all their life that it's uncouth to speak out about injustices that happen to them. Ironically, the first comment on an article that discusses this point mentions one of these injustices, and the first reply is a comment that suggests that they should remain silent about it instead. It's one thing to remain silent as a conscious decision not to want to look like the "bad guy", but it's an entirely different thing to remain silent as a conscious (or unconscious) reaction to the societal role that you've been conditioned to.

kelukelugames 11y ago

I moved to the US in 1992 at the age of 9. It took me more than a decade to feel like an American. To feel like I belonged. Took just a few racist comments from my co workers to take that feeling away. Yup, probationary American at best.

zhemao 11y ago
That really sucks, dude. I'm sorry your coworkers are such assholes. My situation was similar. I came to the US in '94 when I was 3 years old. Being one of very few Asian kids in mostly White schools was not fun. But thankfully, I haven't personally experienced any overt racism since graduating from high school.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  Thanks for the support. :) The sad part is most of them are nice people. They just lack life experience. It's almost comical. One guy got offended when heard that a black director made a movie called "Dear White People". :/
- potatolicious 11y ago
  Similar story for me here (8 years-old, 1994), but the sad thing is maybe his coworkers weren't trying to be assholes. It doesn't even take something particularly racist to really bring things to a distilled clarity - it's not that they hate you or hate your race, but the realization that no matter what you do, what beer you drink, what work you do, what organizations you work with, where you live, or anything else, they will never see you as an authentic American. (or in my case, Canadian, bah details) That's the part that stings the most, not the vicious racists spewing hate at me, but the knowledge that everyday, reasonable people will never fully accept me as an authentic Canadian, and they see no problem with it.

rememberlenny 11y ago

[off topic: Im on the New Yorker tech team] We just launched a feature called "remind to read", that lets users send themselves a reminder email about content. Depending on where you trigger the service, the reminder email will send you back to where you were. To see it while reading, scroll up. A module appears in the bottom righthand corner. It launched last Thursday. I'd love to hear everyones thoughts!

linkregister 11y ago
On my browser, it pops up and immediately down. I can't ever use it. [browser version removed]
- rememberlenny 11y ago
  Will fix! Thank you
it_learnses 11y ago
What would be very useful is an "update reminder" feature where if some information in the article is updated (maybe a couple days or a few years) later, a reminder is sent.
- rememberlenny 11y ago
  Thats a great idea! Have you seen newsdiffs?
  - it_learnses 11y ago
    nope, but i will. Thanks :)
benbreen 11y ago
Just noticed that while reading this very article - I think it's a good idea, relatively unobtrusively implemented.

happyscrappy 11y ago

I am not sure of the point here. I think we have to help those that need help first, I mean what are we going to do start pushing for increased aid for those of Irish descent.

qiqing 11y ago
People often forget that systemic racism against Asian Americans is also racism. That's part of the point. That you can do everything right and have things go reasonably well, but have it all taken away from you because of the color of your skin. Like the physicist who was innocent but had his family dragged through an espionage trial because the officials didn't even bother to consult experts in the field.
- it_learnses 11y ago
  I'm not sure if that was necessarily racism though. I think because China is now seen more and more as an enemy and the professor was born in China, maybe that's why. Not excusing the the FBI, just questioning whether racism was at play. What if it had been a white Russian scientist? Would it have been different?
  - Apocryphon 11y ago
    Does that happen to Russian scientists in America often, though? Because there is precedence for baseless accusations against professors from China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_t...
    - kelukelugames 11y ago
      Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage This is literally the definition of racial profiling.

beachstartup 11y ago

> say that they would never date an asian guy as an asian guy, let me just say that quite frankly, the solution to this is to 1. be attractive, and 2. don't be unattractive. lift weights, dress well, have cool hobbies, make money. girls say a lot of things due to social pressure but when the chips are on the table you can't negotiate attraction. it's subconscious.

huac 11y ago
I mean...the point is that even the 'subconscious' is socially trained. In an environment where every 'People's Sexiest Man Alive' is white 30 years running (fine, Denzel got a token shoutout), where your only Asians in movies are comic relief or simply straight up belittled, there is a very real Eurocentric training. And what constitutes a cool hobby? If attraction is subconscious (or love at first sight?), what does it matter if I play semi-pro badminton vs semi-pro lacrosse? There is much more at work than 'being attractive' when that standard of beauty's defined by forces way outside your control.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- beachstartup 11y ago
  if it's outside of your control, what good does complaining do? try action instead. find a mission in life. this entire mindset reeks of external validation-seeking. if you think people's sexiest list is going to stop you from getting your desired results, then it most certainly will. i'm sorry to be such a bro, but i suggest you go lift. it will help clear your mind of such petty nonsense.
  - yarou 11y ago
    I don't think anybody is complaining that aesthetic preferences are derived and shaped from pop culture. Rather, it's important to understand what subconsciously influences people, so one might make sense of the seemingly counterintuitive results one has when it comes to the fairer sex.

seivan 11y ago

You went full Marxism never go full Marxism. You also seem to have a chip on your shoulder. This isn't a structural racism. You want that; try being Philippino in Japan or Chinese in Indonesia/Malaysia. You live in the US. It's getting sad. You want a middle eastern lead role? Plenty of middle eastern movies for you to choose from. Start here https://twitter.com/kurdomed/status/658782447153381377 https://twitter.com/kurdomed/status/658782447153381377

huac 11y ago
Uh...have you read Marx or my comment? You're really off base with the ad homs. Also, (Han) Chinese descendants control the majority of the Indonesian and Malaysian economies. This can't be a serious comment. You're blind to what that tweet means: want ME leads? watch middle eastern movies, at this specialized movie exhibition. don't go to the movie theaters though! I very clearly meant Hollywood, our arbiter of American taste.
- jquery 11y ago
  Hollywood doesn't determine that, though. They're less of an arbiter than a mirror. They're a business, they follow the money, and they'll cast whoever will make them the most. It sounds nice to say "let's have more asians" but when the box office results suffer from it, why should they? It's unreasonable to expect them to take financial losses, or to forego profit.
  - huac 11y ago
    it's a self-fulfilling prophecy - when society is conditioned to only accept clooney/damon/etc-types in leading roles, then of course the focus groups will 'prefer' a white vs minority lead actor. the first step to changing that is understanding the past - so it's kind of moot whether hollywood reflects or decides. we can, of course, make a converse economic argument. if we "have more asians" then that changes what people think of movies / culture. the industry might make less in the short-term, but in the long-term, having more diverse casts on screen opens up more diverse markets, foreign and domestic.

Torgo 11y ago

I, like I suspect most Americans, do not see Arabs, Sikhs or Indians as "Asian". Isn't this more of a Britishism?

walshemj 11y ago
Yes as a result of the empire if a British person and British Asians says Asian they mean for the Indian sub continent or those Asians ethnically cleansed from Africa in the 60's and 70's
takee 11y ago
You do know that India is in Asia, right? Also, Sikhs more often than not are Indians. Sikhism just like many of the world's other religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism) was born in India.
- douche 11y ago
  For Americans, "Asian" usually means the people we fought with or against in the Pacific in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. For a significant fraction of Americans "Indian" evokes visions of cowboy antagonists or casinos, rather than the Taj Mahal. That's not politically correct, but that is what it is...
  - takee 11y ago
    Well, in that case this needs to change, because it is just not correct and offends both "Indian" Indians and native americans.
kelukelugames 11y ago
Where do you live?

jmspring 11y ago

Depending on where you live in the states, you can see many different scenarios play out. California, specifically Silicon Valley, is definitely a melting pot. I was born and raised in the Bay Area and have seen differing scenarios play out. During high school living in the East Bay, an african american friend (who came from money) was regularly followed and occasionally pulled over because he was in a nice car and driving through nice neighborhoods (where he lived). Working in a semiconductor startup many moons ago, a lot of the Chinese hardware engineers kept to themselves and didn't interact outside their group. Living in Santa Cruz, the "minority" population is primarily Hispanic. I can't speak to the schools, but many many keep to their groups and don't make an effort to integrate into the community as a whole. Maybe it is dual sided racism, but ethnic groups that live in large numbers and don't become part of the overall community and instead build their own island for me is just as problematic as a society that isn't open to others joining and becoming part of the whole. This is not to say that culture and history should not be preserved, practiced, etc. but moving somewhere and excluding yourself from the community as a whole is also problematic.

IndianAstronaut 11y ago
Everyone forgets the flip side of the integration problem. The majority group needs to be welcoming of minority groups or else they will seek out their own. Interracial friendships, dating, etc are still not the norm. A lot of that is due to subtle exclusion of other groups.
- jquery 11y ago
  > The majority group needs to be welcoming of minority groups Can be hard when the minority group prefers to speak in a different language. It's give-and-take. Often minority groups are just fine balkanizing instead of making the effort to integrate. And the minorities are often walking a tightrope between their parents and the majority culture which makes it hard to bridge this gap. So they find it easier just finding people in the same situation. That's why integration often takes generations, and typically takes longer the larger the minority.
- nitwit005 11y ago

analyst74 11y ago

Racism against asians is delicate. It's not like overt and violent racisms black people face, where it's easy to recognize and be dealt with. Take one example. If you denounce your own color, you are quickly accepted and praised for being funny and unbiased; if you speak up about the injustices, you get labeled as too sensitive, confrontational and quickly cast off. It's funny to see so many Asian Americans hating their own kin, they just unconsciously internalized those behaviours because doing so gives them social credit.

chillacy 11y ago
On this topic, I think Malcolm X had some wisdom on the phenomenon of self hate and mental colonization. > Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the color of your skin? To such extent you bleach, to get like the white man. Who taught you to hate the shape of your nose and the shape of your lips? Who taught you to hate yourself from the top of your head to the soles of your feet? Who taught you to hate your own kind? Who taught you to hate the race that you belong to so much so that you don't want to be around each other? No... Before you come asking Mr. Muhammad does he teach hate, you should ask yourself who taught you to hate being what God made you. > You go into China and find a Chinese man that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture, he’ll paint Jesus looking like a Chinese man. You go up to Alaska and find an Eskimo that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture of Jesus, he’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like an Eskimo. You come back here to America and find a white man that believes in Jesus he’ll paint Jesus looking like a white man. Go inside a Negro church who believes in Jesus and ask them to paint a picture of Jesus, they’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like the white man. That’s what you call integration.

tn13 11y ago

I am Indian. Honestly I don't really care about some white American calling me cow worshiping heathen. (which I am). What I find remarkable is the law and policies which are racist in nature. Asian Americans are never considered a minority in the popular discourse where as Blacks and Hispanics are considered as minority. But given all that, I do think it is in America's interest to control who comes to USA and who does not and there is nothing wrong in passing laws that might prohibit any kind of migration to the country. What matters however is that when a personal lawfully gets naturalized he/she must be treated as just any other American.

eric-hu 11y ago

This story hits close to home for me. Up until recently this year, I pointed to many things in my life except myself as the reason for me not being a self-actualized Asian American. My internal heckles followed the pattern of "I'm XYZ, so I can't [fit in with this social group, be attractive to her, etc]" where XYZ included: - too short - Asian - not interested in sports - a gamer - too poor/cheap One day I realized I can't change how I feel at the moment, but I can choose what to do in reaction. If I buy into the feeling's line of reasoning, I'm keeping my situation the same. If I'm honest with myself, I'm usually not thinking such things because I'm happy with the status quo. Complaints about the status quo are useful if they lead to action, but until then they're an energy sink.

digitalzombie 11y ago

I grew up as the few asians in a hispanic/latino whatever neighborhood. Yeah, there are racism when you're the minority. There are racism everywhere, you learn real quick to either work with what you got or cry about it. Maybe white have it better. It doesn't matter, you work with what you got and ignore all the hater. America can always be better but it does give you the ability to move up in class wise and a great country. Oh but you know what? I knew an Asian girl attending my university. She was born in the 1990s, and her family photo is like a college text book. Bunch of mixed races, white, black, asian, and hispanic. Turns out her uncles and aunts marry outside of their race. It's all good.