11 ms·

How I missed an engineering interview after getting singled out by Münchner cops

237 points by vidbina 11y ago

jakubp 11y ago
I wonder if the author has protested at any point (getting into an unmarked vehicle, not being returned to original destination, being ordered to take the clothes off (!?)). I also wonder if he was formally informed of the reason behind the detainment. And finally: if ever faced with such a situation, does a person have the right to a) record everything that happens on the phone (including faces of the police officers + audio), and b) if asked to stop, would it be ok to say "i have the right to record all you do" or something similar?
- t0mk 11y ago
  Reading the article I wondered what you can do/say to the police. Due to this EU "Factsheet" it seems not much: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_defendants_in_criminal_proceedings_-169-ew-en.do?idSubpage=2&member=1 https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_defendants_in_... edit: ah, that's only for "England and Wales", I misread. Someone's got link on actual EU law extract? (is there even any EU law for this?)
  - gambiting 11y ago
    There isn't. Each country will have it's own law for dealing with the police, there's not much on the EU-wide level that you could use.
    - t0mk 11y ago
      You're right. In the portal there are the rights in criminal proceedings described for each country: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_victims_of_crime_in_criminal_proceedings-171-en.do https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_victims_of_cri...
  - rostigerpudel 11y ago
    Criminal law (StGB in .de) and rules relating to proceedings in crime-related investigations (StPO in.de) are not harmonized in the EU, so no, there is no EU law for this.
  - LoSboccacc 11y ago
    not much. EU hasn't got to the point to require strong citizen protections from law enforcement for whatever reason. UK is more similar to the US since uses a similar framework, but many accepted doctrines are quite different in EU even state by state, for example about the allowance of illegally obtained evidence
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  To my knowledge, you are allowed to record the police. There was a sentence by the highest German court just a few weeks ago, stating that the police is not allowed to ask for ids of protesters recording them [0]. You generally have quite a few rights at police checks. For example, you are allowed to decline a breath test. The problem with these rights is, that you lose time if you exercise them, because they will take you to the station. So they are not that useful in cases like this. It is highly unlikely that the German police will beat you up or something like that, but you will have wasted some hours. Just be friendly and do not confess anything. Especially at traffic stops, they will ask you why they stopped you. Just say you do not know, because you do not have to incriminate yourself. [0]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bundesverfassungsgericht-urteil-demonstranten-polizei-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bundesverfassungsgericht-ur...
raverbashing 11y ago
I can understand the hatred, and professionalism apart (which must absolutely be expected), how would the police be expected to act when dealing with a potential trafficker with a fake passport? Just to be more clear, potential as probability higher than a certain value (not being 100% right)
- slowmotiony 11y ago
  What does that even mean, a "potential trafficker"? I say that you are a potential trafficker, is it then alright for the police to make you take off all your clothes?
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    If you say that then the police will evaluate your statement together with the situation it is presented and the other information they might have on the involved persons Which does not imply all the actions taken were correct
- paulsutter 11y ago
  You mean, a "potential trafficker with a fake passport" like you personally? Or, only if it's somebody else?
- vonklaus 11y ago
  Everyone is a potential trafficker, murder or criminal. That is what makes being a cop so difficult. However, the magnitude of the potential is usually determined by things like information and evidence. > how would the police be expected to act when dealing with a potential trafficker with a fake passport? I mean, maybe he had an amazing fake passport and body cavities full of drugs but it is a bit difficult to roll the dice on those assumptions if 1) the passport is real 2) he didn't. They didn't have evidence. I've dabbled in my fare share of narcotics as well, and if you could "smell" it. It was only possible to mean some sort of cannibus. What human could smell an oz of Coke inside another human? Seems like a pretty broad over reach here, either straight up incompetence or racism.
slowmotiony 11y ago
Do you have the names and badge numbers of the officers?
flippyhead 11y ago
Regardless of weather or not the search was warranted in this case it often seems like much of the hardship and resentment could be mitigated by the tiniest amount of curtesy on the part of the police. I don't understand why cops are often (not always) such total dicks about this stuff. Does treating people like shit really further their aims? Is the thinking that some how they'll "smoke out the guilty" when their anger get's the better of them or something?
- slowmotiony 11y ago
  Bavarian cops are known to be absolute pieces of shit. When I was younger I used to travel to Munich from Poland via bus (because it was the cheapest way), and we got stopped and frisked EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Imagine this for a second - I am a EU citizen of a country that signed the Schengen agreement, and yet I get my passport confiscated and my belongings searched every time I am in Germany. Not even a single "sorry" by the officers either.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Bavarian bureaucrats too. What's up with Bavaria?
    - biafra 11y ago
      Bavaria is the Texas of Germany.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - cygx 11y ago
      Bayern gehört zu Österreich... duda, duda.
      - wolfgke 11y ago
        Having a Austrian father and a sister who lives in Austria, I say: the Austrian cops are said to be more civil than their Bavarian counterpart (and I'd prefer to live in Austria than in Bavaria).
maljx 11y ago
I used to take these busses before because they were cheap going to and from Sweden from Germany. The only people ever questioned by the border police were non-white or eastern europeans.
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  "Is Germany a racist country? That is what a new documentary, Black on White, is trying to find out. Its findings are shocking. But, as Damien McGuinness reports, the filmmaker himself has been criticized by black Germans for his methods."[1] [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8347040.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8347040.stm
  - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    Racism is obviously very much alive, it's just no longer blatant. You can't say the n word and people rarely do (some people mistake racism with purely this blatant form of bigotry and ignore the rest), but racial profiling happens every day, even in small interactions with people. I can't count the number of times I'd get to finally know someone, consider them as a new friend, and they'd drop the 'I didn't think you were like this (like them), I thought you'd be like xyz (stereotype of my ethnicity)'. That's racial profiling and it affects a lot of things. Getting checked on an international bus or train is almost guaranteed for me, concerts or clubs? Checked, airplanes? Everyone gets checked but extra searches, taking your shoes off etc is reserved for us special few. Anyway that doesn't even bother me, sure racial profiling for security checks are degrading but it doesn't affect me much personally in my life, it's a minor nuisance all things considered. What depresses me is, you recall that guy on HN who tried to find an apartment in Munich? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8360390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8360390 > The conclusion from this little study, is that a girl with an italian name, gets an 90% answer rate, a guy with an arab name and is younger than 25 gets, 1% answer rate. The master of all, is the young munich guy who is around 25 That's racial profiling, too. It's based on the same principles of racial profiling, that we judge people based on their ethnicity rather than as individuals who happened to have a certain skin color, and then treat people differently. And obviously it's not just trying to find a home to rent, it's jobs etc etc.
talmand 11y ago
That sucks, but I think I would like to hear the other side of the story before I render judgement.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  "We saw a person of colour on the bus and it smelled vaguely like weed so we forced them to get off and strip for us to prove they weren't a drug dealer"?
  - talmand 11y ago
    Is that the official statement?
- currysausage 11y ago
  "Sorry, we know it's a little racist to single out the black guys, but the war on weed justifies radical measures. We're in Bavaria after all, everybody here knows weed is a dangerous gateway drug."
  - allendoerfer 11y ago
    Actually Bavaria has a big and growing Crystal problem, and weed is indeed a gateway drug.
    - fooster 11y ago
      Of course it isn't a gateway drug. Complete nonsense.
      - allendoerfer 11y ago
        Not everyone who smokes weed does harder drugs, but everyone who does harder drugs did smoke weed at some point. This argument makes sense and is not some version of "all spree killers eat bread, so bread must be bad", because the percentage of the population that smokes weed is relatively low (in Germany). I am for legalization but I do allow myself to think differentiated, even about things I support. I have seen people with psychoses caused by marijuana and I know smokers, who struggle to get something going in their lives. I am not saying that weed is evil, I just know, that for some people it can be really dangerous.
CurtMonash 11y ago
It probably would have been worth trying to ask a question: "I have interviews for two consulting projects at X hours and Y hours. Is it likely that I will be able to make them in time?" Possible benefits include: -- Getting a straight answer. -- Breaking the mental model whereby the police are dehumanizing you and/or lumping you into a certain profile. -- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :)
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  Asking a question could provoke them, though.
  - hellbanner 11y ago
    The policeman is in your head, the terrorists have won.
    - tome 11y ago
      No, the terrorists win when they succeed in killing innocent civilians and bringing down the government they were targeting. Forcing us to go through very annoying security measures is a loss for us but does not count as a terrorist "win".
      - eggestad 11y ago
        No. All terrorism is about changing behavior. Terrorists want you to either start doing something or want you to stop doing something. Killing, maiming or treats of killing or maiming are means to that end.
        w_t_payne 11y ago
        Most terrorism is about keeping the funds flowing for the guy sending the other guys off to blow themselves (and/or any bystanders who happen to be in the vicinity) to smithereens.
the_mitsuhiko 11y ago
I can tell you from second hand experience that this also happens to white people. I was with friends heading by car from the Netherlands to Germany and our more than white driver got a ver special handling by the police because they thought he would be driving under the effects of weed (which was definitely not the case). Apparently there was some sort of festival happening and they assumed we would belong to another group of people and our driver looked sufficiently like a druggie I guess. But being polite and understanding of the situation you can get out of this usually without much of a hassle.
- dao- 11y ago
  So you have anecdotal evidence that the police once searched a white person. Cool. ;) I'm afraid Racial Profiling is still real.
nothis 11y ago
Gave me shivers to read this, especially how helpless one must feel in this situation.
hellbanner 11y ago
Maybe the world does need wearable networked glasses. Press an "Alert" button to signal to your network that you want the m to watch.. feeds spread virally, the whole world watches..
wobbleblob 11y ago
I used to get stopped, singled out and searched at the borders all the time, but the expansion of the Schengen zone put an end to that years ago. A young man, traveling on his own from Amsterdam (especially on a Dutch passport) is a red flag to these officious pricks. It's disturbing that the Germans unilaterally decided to abolish the Schengen zone. Temporarily they say. By now I guess I've aged out of the target group, so they leave me alone. And I don't look like the OP.
- wyldfire 11y ago
  The Schengen zone is pretty valuable to the EU and to Germany, it seems likely they'll re-establish it.
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  We have to tackle the problem together, to keep accomplishments like Schengen, because the argument works the other way round, too: The Netherlands have much stricter asylum laws than Germany has, with or without border controls. Maybe you could take some of the 1.5 million refugees, that will arrive in Germany this year. You took only 25k last year. Stuff like the border controls are really just measurements to prevent our versions of Geert Wilders from gaining traction.
  - wobbleblob 11y ago
    NL doesn't have stricter asylum laws than Germany, despite the big mouth of the guy you just mentioned. I'm also skeptical about the 1.5 million figure. People with a political agenda are putting intimidating figures like that in the media. Fewer come here because of the location - this would only be your first entry point in the EU if you arrive at the airport - and the fact that it's not a famous, charismatic country. They want to go where they have friends and family first, failing that, they want to go to an English speaking country, failing that, next choice are Germany and France. Any other place they end up is mostly settling for what happens to work out. Any way, I used to get a similar (less extreme) treatment way back in the 90's, before refugees were an issue. Edit: and I obviously don't look like a refugee. The events destribed by the OP were obviously a drug bust.
domrdy 11y ago
Münchner cops are the best. I was hit by a police car on my way home from work earlier this year (not my fault). Instead of calling the ambulance the guy spent 15min on police radio, he looked scared as shit. Eventually, an elderly lady that witnessed the whole thing called the ambulance and I was taken to the hospital. I'm just glad I wasn't seriously injured, still I had to wear crutches for a few weeks which was extremely annoying. Made for a fun punchline when explaining the "bus factor" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor at a talk I gave at a company conference later on.
rplnt 11y ago
This is abnormally stupid. There is absolutely no reason to do these searches. It helps no one. And it sucks really hard that you can't do anything about it. It's infuriating.
ThePhysicist 11y ago
In defense of the Munich police (which is not always friendly but mostly respectful), the current situation in Bavaria is quite unusual due to the refugee crisis and the arrival of thousands of unregistered people every day, which might cause some people in the police force to be a bit on the edge. Being checked when entering Germany from the Netherlands isn't so unusual though, as there are lots of people trafficking drugs across the border (mostly on a small scale though). Friends of mine got checked several times as well even though they're "European looking", but I haven't heard from cases where people got taken to a police station for further inquiry. As a German I'm sorry that this happened, because I actually think we got one of the most friendly and helpful police forces in Europe. Concerning your dismissal at the police station: As far as I know you would have had the right to be driven back to your original location in Munich afterwards. My advice: Complain. In Germany, this is the best way to get what you want :D
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- noobermin 11y ago
  Would complaints not have potential to escalate the situation? Speaking as a colored American here. (I haven't been randomly searched before on the street or bus, but I've learned to be deferential if not for the sake of expediency, at the Airport when passing through TSA).
  - ThePhysicist 11y ago
    While there inarguably is some -often subtle, occasionally open- racism in Germany the law is usually on your side and the system to enforce it is (mostly) working. Openly arguing and even (verbally) fighting with police men/women isn't so unusual here and I think knowing and insisting on your rights is more likely to make the police handle you more cautiously (as they know you know your rights) rather than escalate the situation. Only speaking from my limited experience as a "European looking" person though, so don't take my word for it.
- creshal 11y ago
tome 11y ago
"if the laptop ends up defective and I would have to setup a new laptop with all of my build environments and rewrite all the uncommitted code on my trusty old pal. I would end up losing days installing all of my tools" Don't let yourself get into this situation, folks!
- creshal 11y ago
  Every day is backup day.
helipad 11y ago
While living in Munich I was approached twice by police officers later in the evening (around 10-11pm) coming out of U-Bahn stations. On one occasion the seemingly plain-clothed officers flashed a badge and started rifling through my jean pockets in the same motion. I actually thought I was being mugged. After the fact they were all smiles and conversation, but whatever the local laws are, they're badly missing the point of who they're trying to protect.
SyneRyder 11y ago
I witnessed something similar in mid-May this year on an ICE train between Nürnberg and München. As is normal, everyone's train ticket was checked (including mine), but when they came to a group of Chinese tourists, there was a problem with one passenger - he'd pre-purchased 3 months prior with a credit card, but the credit card had since been stolen during their international trip. In Germany, Deutsche Bahn require you to present the exact credit card used to purchase your ticket as identification when asked. The ticket inspector didn't believe the passenger, saying "If your card really was stolen, your replacement card will be the same number" and "If your credit card was stolen you would go to the police to report it." I spoke up at this point in support, explaining that in other countries (at least in Australia), you get a new credit card number so thieves can't use the old number online. But the officer was convinced card numbers were immutable. The passenger did have a police report, but the German officer said "This case number is for British Police, checking this is too difficult." The inspector asked for the passengers passport - understandably the passenger was not about to surrender his main identification to someone else. The inspector said he could not assist if he did not see the passport, and the passenger then allowed him to see the passport. But when he provided it, the inspector looked at it, then said "Thank you, I now take this, you do not get this back until the police arrive and the police will decide if they give it back to you." The passenger was part of a tour group, and all of the other tickets had been valid. They asked if they would all be arrested, the inspector said no, but when they asked if they could accompany him to the police station, the inspector said "No, you are not allowed to, only he can go with the police." The entire group all got out at the next stop anyway, where the passenger was arrested by police. After an argument the police did allow the tour group to follow, at least through Munich Station for as far as I could see. TLDR: the passenger had a successfully pre-purchased ticket, had passport identification that matched the payment details, bank & police statements to support his story of a stolen credit card, but he was still arrested by Munich police. And Munich was only a stop they were passing through during their train journey! I adore Germany, but seeing this left a terrible impression. That Deutsche Bahn card ID policy is crazy, and something is very wrong with Munich's authorities. I'll stick to Berlin next time.
- toothbrush 11y ago
  France has the same weird credit card policy, and i, too, have been bitten by it. Luckily i got off with a mere telling off by a very surly conductor, when it became obvious i wasn't magically going to produce another credit card. The insanity is on two levels though; using the card as ID but also the fact that they're so damned serious about it. You've got actual, state-provided ID that matches, a valid ticket, but they still give you lip. It's incredible. "Luckily", i'm caucasian and i speak French, but god help me if i had been of north African phenotype (and for the uninitiated: we're talking about French-speaking born-in-France natives who still get treated like shit) — that's the favourite scapegoat in this part of the world :/. EDIT: In fact, the whole idea of identifying myself on public transport gives me the shivers. I much prefer the situation where you simply buy anonymous tickets that are valid to the bearer. IMHO the rail authorities have no business knowing who i am, especially since in most cases you're not even crossing borders. And even when you are, they're more likely than not Schengen, in which case there's theoretically no place for the shake-down either. Compare the case where you're sitting in a car — checks are very rare in my experience.
crasp 11y ago
I have not had the exact same experience but I traveled very often by car through Germany (as a Dutch citizen) for holidays. My experiences are as follows: - Drive in a (new) Audi A3 on lease: Get stopped every other time. Completely strip my car and luggage. Throw everything on the ground until everything was spread in a 3m radius around my car. Leave me to pick everything up and tetris it back into the trunk and instead start complaining about how the car is not registered on the same name as my passport. - Drive in a used Toyota Prius: <blank>
joshuaheard 11y ago
I had a similar experience when I made the mistake of telling the officer I was coming from Amsterdam, the drug capital of Europe.
retromario 11y ago
I was "controlled" once at Sendlingertor on my way to work one morning. As I turned a cornet, I noticed two large white cops ~20 meters away. I made the briefest of eye contact before looking away/putting my head down and walking with purpose to my exit escalators. They intercepted me and asked for ID. I answered 'um, I have to get to work'. One officer laughed and said 'that doesn't really matter'. I handed my UK drivers license. They asked me if I had an arrest record, but with my poor German, I thought they meant if I was registered in Munich, so I mumbled an affirmative. One officer stepped back to radio in my details and check my record. The other asked me if I had any drugs. I said no. He asked me to show him the inside folds of my wallet and the contents of my pocket. He didn't actually actively search me himself, just made me show him that I didn't have any drugs squirreled away. The whole thing was surreal and over in 3-4 minutes. Streams of workers walking by during the whole event. I was shaking with adrenaline and itching to protest against this unprovoked intrusion into my life. But I stayed calm and they moved on. It was a weird experience. I'm only glad that they didn't actively search me, it would have made the whole thing even more demeaning. I assume I was singled out for three reasons: - My baggy pants, loose tshirt combination - My slightly not white enough skin color. - The ridiculous and increased police presence that always seems to surround Munich a few times a year (usually around the time of the Munich Security Conference but not always: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Security_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Security_Conference). FWIW, I've never had problems with other Munich civil servants. They are usually just doing their work, and if you're polite/pleasant, it's usually reciprocated. The police on the other hand seem to have a bug up their ass (except during Oktoberfest, where they also seem more relaxed). I have a dark skinned friend in Munich who gets controlled every few months. Once while eating his lunch in tiny park in the heart of Munich on a sunny day surrounded by other citizens! This Wu Tang encounter with Munich police sums it all up: http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhAonAI6tetwu4P6i8 http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhAonAI6tetw...
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WildUtah 11y ago
"I’ve been raised to consider the police my friend. I understand the notion of them being in office to protect and serve the people and I have felt comfortable in the presence of the law as long as I can remember. Naive[sic] as ever I went into this experience just like that… with the police as my ally." OP should write a nice thank you letter to the München cops for disabusing him of this notion. It was his responsibility as an adult to have learned long ago that the authorities are not your friends and the cops are not on your side. Just imagine the nasty policies of total fascist police empowerment that he's probably been voting for with ideas like that. Maybe a little education will have straightened him out a bit. Really, people who expect an encounter with the cops to be respectful, convenient, not humiliating, fair, decent, honest, voluntary, or inexpensive are a part of the problem. I'm glad OP is wiser and I hope he will now run his life with due consideration for how things are instead of some childish fantasy of how things should be. It's imperative to memorize the rules of legal limits and rights you have with cops in any country you transit often. In those you visit just once, memorize the phrase "I demand to speak to my embassy immediately," but learn to be patient because it takes a very long time to work. In America, learn to say "I do not consent to a search," and "I want to speak to a lawyer," and "am I free to go," and don't say anything else. I don't know the rules for Germany, but OP needs to. So go look them up, OP. It's your responsibility now that you've been educated. Also, if there's a citizen grievance procedure, it's your immediate responsibility to file one.
- danielsamuels 11y ago
  > Really, people who expect an encounter with the cops to be respectful, convenient, not humiliating, fair, decent, honest, voluntary, or inexpensive are a part of the problem. All of the encounters I've had with British police have always been fantastic, they're always respectful, tell you exactly what they're stopped you for, what's going to happen next. I'm glad I live in a country where I don't have to fear the police.
- prodmerc 11y ago
  I wouldn't say people who expect the police to be nice are part of the problem, but the police are not your friends. They follow their instructions and protect the law, which is also not on your side. It's on the side of the abstract "majority", so you have a very high chance of not being included.
prodmerc 11y ago
> This is what it feels like to get in touch with the police? Unidirectional respect? Yes. No matter how good a police force's reputation, once you're in their hands, you better make sure you make them feel respected if you want to get out of their grasp quickly. Otherwise, trouble. That said, German police in general are pretty laid back and respectful in my experience :-)
quonn 11y ago
I suspect that he may actually have been singled out for his hair style (dreadlocks, if this photo is correct [0]), not his skin color. Now, this would _also_ be stupid and inappropriate, but it fits with the cliché, maybe due to Bob Marley or whatever. [0] http://en.solarswing.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/portret_david-180x180.png http://en.solarswing.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/portret_d...
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- Tomte 11y ago
  That's probably at least partially true, but I still prefer traffic stops without a weapon drawn.
mschuster91 11y ago
I know a couple of cops, and as a cop you indeed do profiling on "random" checks. You simply pick someone where common experience shows that a "hit" is likely. Like, in Munich if you search a black dude with his friends, chances are high that he's got pot on him. In other cities, being young, white and speak with "gangsta speak" and hanging out with your friends can be an invitation for the police to check if you got knives on you. Or if you generally behave nervous, check if the person has an arrest warrant open instead of just looking at the ID card. There are no official quotas to fill like in the US, but it is definitely better if you profile and have a "good looking" checked person/hit ratio.
- mcguire 11y ago
  "Like, in Munich if you search a black dude with his friends, chances are high that he's got pot on him." Chances are high that a black dude has pot on him, or chances are high that a dude with pot on him is black? Those are actually two different things.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox
nefitty 11y ago
"I still understand that the police does its job, but during the experience I felt an intense hatred for the office. After a multitude of such experiences it isn’t far-fetched to imagine that the parties subjected to such treatment develop an enduring hatred for the office and everything associated to it. I guess the idea of being powerless is one of the many very frustrating things about this ordeal. Can I blame people for disliking the police if many of their experiences are as negative as the one I’ve had and probably often even worse?" This realization doesn't seem to ever strike some people their entire lives. When harassment by authority is a common occurrence and a source of anxiety it's difficult to keep up appearances.
lordnacho 11y ago
This kind of behaviour needs to be filmed. It must be getting pretty cheap to do a button camera? I imagine the recent US cases of police impropriety will stir some changes. At least it held some attention for a while. On another note, when I'm treated badly by the system, I tend to feel a bit sorry for the person on the other end eventually. It's dehumanizing to not be able to behave in the way you find reasonable, and I doubt most cops think it's useful to randomly stop people for no reason. Same goes with the bureaucrat who won't approve your passport because you're smiling in the photo. These people would most likely not like to do as they do, but they are as powerless as their victims. When you meet them, you tell yourself not to get angry; they are trained to do as they are told, not to think. And that sucks for everyone.
guard-of-terra 11y ago
Police is influental enough to eventually get immunity from law, granted by lawmakers. After that they don't bother themself with any sort of politeness. If something goes wrong, they can always use force, blame the victim and get out of it. This is a standing problem, not one of us is immune, we should be fixing it in the future.

237 points by vidbina 11y ago

I wonder if the author has protested at any point (getting into an unmarked vehicle, not being returned to original destination, being ordered to take the clothes off (!?)). I also wonder if he was formally informed of the reason behind the detainment. And finally: if ever faced with such a situation, does a person have the right to a) record everything that happens on the phone (including faces of the police officers + audio), and b) if asked to stop, would it be ok to say "i have the right to record all you do" or something similar?

t0mk 11y ago
Reading the article I wondered what you can do/say to the police. Due to this EU "Factsheet" it seems not much: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_defendants_in_criminal_proceedings_-169-ew-en.do?idSubpage=2&member=1 https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_defendants_in_... edit: ah, that's only for "England and Wales", I misread. Someone's got link on actual EU law extract? (is there even any EU law for this?)
- gambiting 11y ago
  There isn't. Each country will have it's own law for dealing with the police, there's not much on the EU-wide level that you could use.
  - t0mk 11y ago
    You're right. In the portal there are the rights in criminal proceedings described for each country: https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_victims_of_crime_in_criminal_proceedings-171-en.do https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_rights_of_victims_of_cri...
- rostigerpudel 11y ago
  Criminal law (StGB in .de) and rules relating to proceedings in crime-related investigations (StPO in.de) are not harmonized in the EU, so no, there is no EU law for this.
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  not much. EU hasn't got to the point to require strong citizen protections from law enforcement for whatever reason. UK is more similar to the US since uses a similar framework, but many accepted doctrines are quite different in EU even state by state, for example about the allowance of illegally obtained evidence
allendoerfer 11y ago
To my knowledge, you are allowed to record the police. There was a sentence by the highest German court just a few weeks ago, stating that the police is not allowed to ask for ids of protesters recording them [0]. You generally have quite a few rights at police checks. For example, you are allowed to decline a breath test. The problem with these rights is, that you lose time if you exercise them, because they will take you to the station. So they are not that useful in cases like this. It is highly unlikely that the German police will beat you up or something like that, but you will have wasted some hours. Just be friendly and do not confess anything. Especially at traffic stops, they will ask you why they stopped you. Just say you do not know, because you do not have to incriminate yourself. [0]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bundesverfassungsgericht-urteil-demonstranten-polizei-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bundesverfassungsgericht-ur...

raverbashing 11y ago

I can understand the hatred, and professionalism apart (which must absolutely be expected), how would the police be expected to act when dealing with a potential trafficker with a fake passport? Just to be more clear, potential as probability higher than a certain value (not being 100% right)

slowmotiony 11y ago
What does that even mean, a "potential trafficker"? I say that you are a potential trafficker, is it then alright for the police to make you take off all your clothes?
- raverbashing 11y ago
  If you say that then the police will evaluate your statement together with the situation it is presented and the other information they might have on the involved persons Which does not imply all the actions taken were correct
paulsutter 11y ago
You mean, a "potential trafficker with a fake passport" like you personally? Or, only if it's somebody else?
vonklaus 11y ago
Everyone is a potential trafficker, murder or criminal. That is what makes being a cop so difficult. However, the magnitude of the potential is usually determined by things like information and evidence. > how would the police be expected to act when dealing with a potential trafficker with a fake passport? I mean, maybe he had an amazing fake passport and body cavities full of drugs but it is a bit difficult to roll the dice on those assumptions if 1) the passport is real 2) he didn't. They didn't have evidence. I've dabbled in my fare share of narcotics as well, and if you could "smell" it. It was only possible to mean some sort of cannibus. What human could smell an oz of Coke inside another human? Seems like a pretty broad over reach here, either straight up incompetence or racism.

slowmotiony 11y ago

Do you have the names and badge numbers of the officers?

flippyhead 11y ago

Regardless of weather or not the search was warranted in this case it often seems like much of the hardship and resentment could be mitigated by the tiniest amount of curtesy on the part of the police. I don't understand why cops are often (not always) such total dicks about this stuff. Does treating people like shit really further their aims? Is the thinking that some how they'll "smoke out the guilty" when their anger get's the better of them or something?

slowmotiony 11y ago
Bavarian cops are known to be absolute pieces of shit. When I was younger I used to travel to Munich from Poland via bus (because it was the cheapest way), and we got stopped and frisked EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Imagine this for a second - I am a EU citizen of a country that signed the Schengen agreement, and yet I get my passport confiscated and my belongings searched every time I am in Germany. Not even a single "sorry" by the officers either.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Bavarian bureaucrats too. What's up with Bavaria?
  - biafra 11y ago
    Bavaria is the Texas of Germany.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - cygx 11y ago
    Bayern gehört zu Österreich... duda, duda.
    - wolfgke 11y ago
      Having a Austrian father and a sister who lives in Austria, I say: the Austrian cops are said to be more civil than their Bavarian counterpart (and I'd prefer to live in Austria than in Bavaria).

maljx 11y ago

I used to take these busses before because they were cheap going to and from Sweden from Germany. The only people ever questioned by the border police were non-white or eastern europeans.

LoSboccacc 11y ago
"Is Germany a racist country? That is what a new documentary, Black on White, is trying to find out. Its findings are shocking. But, as Damien McGuinness reports, the filmmaker himself has been criticized by black Germans for his methods."[1] [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8347040.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8347040.stm
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  Racism is obviously very much alive, it's just no longer blatant. You can't say the n word and people rarely do (some people mistake racism with purely this blatant form of bigotry and ignore the rest), but racial profiling happens every day, even in small interactions with people. I can't count the number of times I'd get to finally know someone, consider them as a new friend, and they'd drop the 'I didn't think you were like this (like them), I thought you'd be like xyz (stereotype of my ethnicity)'. That's racial profiling and it affects a lot of things. Getting checked on an international bus or train is almost guaranteed for me, concerts or clubs? Checked, airplanes? Everyone gets checked but extra searches, taking your shoes off etc is reserved for us special few. Anyway that doesn't even bother me, sure racial profiling for security checks are degrading but it doesn't affect me much personally in my life, it's a minor nuisance all things considered. What depresses me is, you recall that guy on HN who tried to find an apartment in Munich? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8360390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8360390 > The conclusion from this little study, is that a girl with an italian name, gets an 90% answer rate, a guy with an arab name and is younger than 25 gets, 1% answer rate. The master of all, is the young munich guy who is around 25 That's racial profiling, too. It's based on the same principles of racial profiling, that we judge people based on their ethnicity rather than as individuals who happened to have a certain skin color, and then treat people differently. And obviously it's not just trying to find a home to rent, it's jobs etc etc.

talmand 11y ago

That sucks, but I think I would like to hear the other side of the story before I render judgement.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
"We saw a person of colour on the bus and it smelled vaguely like weed so we forced them to get off and strip for us to prove they weren't a drug dealer"?
- talmand 11y ago
  Is that the official statement?
currysausage 11y ago
"Sorry, we know it's a little racist to single out the black guys, but the war on weed justifies radical measures. We're in Bavaria after all, everybody here knows weed is a dangerous gateway drug."
- allendoerfer 11y ago
  Actually Bavaria has a big and growing Crystal problem, and weed is indeed a gateway drug.
  - fooster 11y ago
    Of course it isn't a gateway drug. Complete nonsense.
    - allendoerfer 11y ago
      Not everyone who smokes weed does harder drugs, but everyone who does harder drugs did smoke weed at some point. This argument makes sense and is not some version of "all spree killers eat bread, so bread must be bad", because the percentage of the population that smokes weed is relatively low (in Germany). I am for legalization but I do allow myself to think differentiated, even about things I support. I have seen people with psychoses caused by marijuana and I know smokers, who struggle to get something going in their lives. I am not saying that weed is evil, I just know, that for some people it can be really dangerous.

CurtMonash 11y ago

It probably would have been worth trying to ask a question: "I have interviews for two consulting projects at X hours and Y hours. Is it likely that I will be able to make them in time?" Possible benefits include: -- Getting a straight answer. -- Breaking the mental model whereby the police are dehumanizing you and/or lumping you into a certain profile. -- Getting a response so nasty it's easier to get them into trouble later on. :)

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
Asking a question could provoke them, though.
- hellbanner 11y ago
  The policeman is in your head, the terrorists have won.
  - tome 11y ago
    No, the terrorists win when they succeed in killing innocent civilians and bringing down the government they were targeting. Forcing us to go through very annoying security measures is a loss for us but does not count as a terrorist "win".
    - eggestad 11y ago
      No. All terrorism is about changing behavior. Terrorists want you to either start doing something or want you to stop doing something. Killing, maiming or treats of killing or maiming are means to that end.
      - w_t_payne 11y ago
        Most terrorism is about keeping the funds flowing for the guy sending the other guys off to blow themselves (and/or any bystanders who happen to be in the vicinity) to smithereens.

the_mitsuhiko 11y ago

I can tell you from second hand experience that this also happens to white people. I was with friends heading by car from the Netherlands to Germany and our more than white driver got a ver special handling by the police because they thought he would be driving under the effects of weed (which was definitely not the case). Apparently there was some sort of festival happening and they assumed we would belong to another group of people and our driver looked sufficiently like a druggie I guess. But being polite and understanding of the situation you can get out of this usually without much of a hassle.

dao- 11y ago
So you have anecdotal evidence that the police once searched a white person. Cool. ;) I'm afraid Racial Profiling is still real.

nothis 11y ago

Gave me shivers to read this, especially how helpless one must feel in this situation.

hellbanner 11y ago

Maybe the world does need wearable networked glasses. Press an "Alert" button to signal to your network that you want the m to watch.. feeds spread virally, the whole world watches..

wobbleblob 11y ago

I used to get stopped, singled out and searched at the borders all the time, but the expansion of the Schengen zone put an end to that years ago. A young man, traveling on his own from Amsterdam (especially on a Dutch passport) is a red flag to these officious pricks. It's disturbing that the Germans unilaterally decided to abolish the Schengen zone. Temporarily they say. By now I guess I've aged out of the target group, so they leave me alone. And I don't look like the OP.

wyldfire 11y ago
The Schengen zone is pretty valuable to the EU and to Germany, it seems likely they'll re-establish it.
allendoerfer 11y ago
We have to tackle the problem together, to keep accomplishments like Schengen, because the argument works the other way round, too: The Netherlands have much stricter asylum laws than Germany has, with or without border controls. Maybe you could take some of the 1.5 million refugees, that will arrive in Germany this year. You took only 25k last year. Stuff like the border controls are really just measurements to prevent our versions of Geert Wilders from gaining traction.
- wobbleblob 11y ago
  NL doesn't have stricter asylum laws than Germany, despite the big mouth of the guy you just mentioned. I'm also skeptical about the 1.5 million figure. People with a political agenda are putting intimidating figures like that in the media. Fewer come here because of the location - this would only be your first entry point in the EU if you arrive at the airport - and the fact that it's not a famous, charismatic country. They want to go where they have friends and family first, failing that, they want to go to an English speaking country, failing that, next choice are Germany and France. Any other place they end up is mostly settling for what happens to work out. Any way, I used to get a similar (less extreme) treatment way back in the 90's, before refugees were an issue. Edit: and I obviously don't look like a refugee. The events destribed by the OP were obviously a drug bust.

domrdy 11y ago

Münchner cops are the best. I was hit by a police car on my way home from work earlier this year (not my fault). Instead of calling the ambulance the guy spent 15min on police radio, he looked scared as shit. Eventually, an elderly lady that witnessed the whole thing called the ambulance and I was taken to the hospital. I'm just glad I wasn't seriously injured, still I had to wear crutches for a few weeks which was extremely annoying. Made for a fun punchline when explaining the "bus factor" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor at a talk I gave at a company conference later on.

rplnt 11y ago

This is abnormally stupid. There is absolutely no reason to do these searches. It helps no one. And it sucks really hard that you can't do anything about it. It's infuriating.

ThePhysicist 11y ago

In defense of the Munich police (which is not always friendly but mostly respectful), the current situation in Bavaria is quite unusual due to the refugee crisis and the arrival of thousands of unregistered people every day, which might cause some people in the police force to be a bit on the edge. Being checked when entering Germany from the Netherlands isn't so unusual though, as there are lots of people trafficking drugs across the border (mostly on a small scale though). Friends of mine got checked several times as well even though they're "European looking", but I haven't heard from cases where people got taken to a police station for further inquiry. As a German I'm sorry that this happened, because I actually think we got one of the most friendly and helpful police forces in Europe. Concerning your dismissal at the police station: As far as I know you would have had the right to be driven back to your original location in Munich afterwards. My advice: Complain. In Germany, this is the best way to get what you want :D

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noobermin 11y ago
Would complaints not have potential to escalate the situation? Speaking as a colored American here. (I haven't been randomly searched before on the street or bus, but I've learned to be deferential if not for the sake of expediency, at the Airport when passing through TSA).
- ThePhysicist 11y ago
  While there inarguably is some -often subtle, occasionally open- racism in Germany the law is usually on your side and the system to enforce it is (mostly) working. Openly arguing and even (verbally) fighting with police men/women isn't so unusual here and I think knowing and insisting on your rights is more likely to make the police handle you more cautiously (as they know you know your rights) rather than escalate the situation. Only speaking from my limited experience as a "European looking" person though, so don't take my word for it.
creshal 11y ago

tome 11y ago

"if the laptop ends up defective and I would have to setup a new laptop with all of my build environments and rewrite all the uncommitted code on my trusty old pal. I would end up losing days installing all of my tools" Don't let yourself get into this situation, folks!

creshal 11y ago
Every day is backup day.

helipad 11y ago

While living in Munich I was approached twice by police officers later in the evening (around 10-11pm) coming out of U-Bahn stations. On one occasion the seemingly plain-clothed officers flashed a badge and started rifling through my jean pockets in the same motion. I actually thought I was being mugged. After the fact they were all smiles and conversation, but whatever the local laws are, they're badly missing the point of who they're trying to protect.

SyneRyder 11y ago

I witnessed something similar in mid-May this year on an ICE train between Nürnberg and München. As is normal, everyone's train ticket was checked (including mine), but when they came to a group of Chinese tourists, there was a problem with one passenger - he'd pre-purchased 3 months prior with a credit card, but the credit card had since been stolen during their international trip. In Germany, Deutsche Bahn require you to present the exact credit card used to purchase your ticket as identification when asked. The ticket inspector didn't believe the passenger, saying "If your card really was stolen, your replacement card will be the same number" and "If your credit card was stolen you would go to the police to report it." I spoke up at this point in support, explaining that in other countries (at least in Australia), you get a new credit card number so thieves can't use the old number online. But the officer was convinced card numbers were immutable. The passenger did have a police report, but the German officer said "This case number is for British Police, checking this is too difficult." The inspector asked for the passengers passport - understandably the passenger was not about to surrender his main identification to someone else. The inspector said he could not assist if he did not see the passport, and the passenger then allowed him to see the passport. But when he provided it, the inspector looked at it, then said "Thank you, I now take this, you do not get this back until the police arrive and the police will decide if they give it back to you." The passenger was part of a tour group, and all of the other tickets had been valid. They asked if they would all be arrested, the inspector said no, but when they asked if they could accompany him to the police station, the inspector said "No, you are not allowed to, only he can go with the police." The entire group all got out at the next stop anyway, where the passenger was arrested by police. After an argument the police did allow the tour group to follow, at least through Munich Station for as far as I could see. TLDR: the passenger had a successfully pre-purchased ticket, had passport identification that matched the payment details, bank & police statements to support his story of a stolen credit card, but he was still arrested by Munich police. And Munich was only a stop they were passing through during their train journey! I adore Germany, but seeing this left a terrible impression. That Deutsche Bahn card ID policy is crazy, and something is very wrong with Munich's authorities. I'll stick to Berlin next time.

toothbrush 11y ago
France has the same weird credit card policy, and i, too, have been bitten by it. Luckily i got off with a mere telling off by a very surly conductor, when it became obvious i wasn't magically going to produce another credit card. The insanity is on two levels though; using the card as ID but also the fact that they're so damned serious about it. You've got actual, state-provided ID that matches, a valid ticket, but they still give you lip. It's incredible. "Luckily", i'm caucasian and i speak French, but god help me if i had been of north African phenotype (and for the uninitiated: we're talking about French-speaking born-in-France natives who still get treated like shit) — that's the favourite scapegoat in this part of the world :/. EDIT: In fact, the whole idea of identifying myself on public transport gives me the shivers. I much prefer the situation where you simply buy anonymous tickets that are valid to the bearer. IMHO the rail authorities have no business knowing who i am, especially since in most cases you're not even crossing borders. And even when you are, they're more likely than not Schengen, in which case there's theoretically no place for the shake-down either. Compare the case where you're sitting in a car — checks are very rare in my experience.

crasp 11y ago

I have not had the exact same experience but I traveled very often by car through Germany (as a Dutch citizen) for holidays. My experiences are as follows: - Drive in a (new) Audi A3 on lease: Get stopped every other time. Completely strip my car and luggage. Throw everything on the ground until everything was spread in a 3m radius around my car. Leave me to pick everything up and tetris it back into the trunk and instead start complaining about how the car is not registered on the same name as my passport. - Drive in a used Toyota Prius: <blank>

joshuaheard 11y ago

I had a similar experience when I made the mistake of telling the officer I was coming from Amsterdam, the drug capital of Europe.

retromario 11y ago

I was "controlled" once at Sendlingertor on my way to work one morning. As I turned a cornet, I noticed two large white cops ~20 meters away. I made the briefest of eye contact before looking away/putting my head down and walking with purpose to my exit escalators. They intercepted me and asked for ID. I answered 'um, I have to get to work'. One officer laughed and said 'that doesn't really matter'. I handed my UK drivers license. They asked me if I had an arrest record, but with my poor German, I thought they meant if I was registered in Munich, so I mumbled an affirmative. One officer stepped back to radio in my details and check my record. The other asked me if I had any drugs. I said no. He asked me to show him the inside folds of my wallet and the contents of my pocket. He didn't actually actively search me himself, just made me show him that I didn't have any drugs squirreled away. The whole thing was surreal and over in 3-4 minutes. Streams of workers walking by during the whole event. I was shaking with adrenaline and itching to protest against this unprovoked intrusion into my life. But I stayed calm and they moved on. It was a weird experience. I'm only glad that they didn't actively search me, it would have made the whole thing even more demeaning. I assume I was singled out for three reasons: - My baggy pants, loose tshirt combination - My slightly not white enough skin color. - The ridiculous and increased police presence that always seems to surround Munich a few times a year (usually around the time of the Munich Security Conference but not always: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Security_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Security_Conference). FWIW, I've never had problems with other Munich civil servants. They are usually just doing their work, and if you're polite/pleasant, it's usually reciprocated. The police on the other hand seem to have a bug up their ass (except during Oktoberfest, where they also seem more relaxed). I have a dark skinned friend in Munich who gets controlled every few months. Once while eating his lunch in tiny park in the heart of Munich on a sunny day surrounded by other citizens! This Wu Tang encounter with Munich police sums it all up: http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhAonAI6tetwu4P6i8 http://worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhAonAI6tetw...

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WildUtah 11y ago

"I’ve been raised to consider the police my friend. I understand the notion of them being in office to protect and serve the people and I have felt comfortable in the presence of the law as long as I can remember. Naive[sic] as ever I went into this experience just like that… with the police as my ally." OP should write a nice thank you letter to the München cops for disabusing him of this notion. It was his responsibility as an adult to have learned long ago that the authorities are not your friends and the cops are not on your side. Just imagine the nasty policies of total fascist police empowerment that he's probably been voting for with ideas like that. Maybe a little education will have straightened him out a bit. Really, people who expect an encounter with the cops to be respectful, convenient, not humiliating, fair, decent, honest, voluntary, or inexpensive are a part of the problem. I'm glad OP is wiser and I hope he will now run his life with due consideration for how things are instead of some childish fantasy of how things should be. It's imperative to memorize the rules of legal limits and rights you have with cops in any country you transit often. In those you visit just once, memorize the phrase "I demand to speak to my embassy immediately," but learn to be patient because it takes a very long time to work. In America, learn to say "I do not consent to a search," and "I want to speak to a lawyer," and "am I free to go," and don't say anything else. I don't know the rules for Germany, but OP needs to. So go look them up, OP. It's your responsibility now that you've been educated. Also, if there's a citizen grievance procedure, it's your immediate responsibility to file one.

danielsamuels 11y ago
> Really, people who expect an encounter with the cops to be respectful, convenient, not humiliating, fair, decent, honest, voluntary, or inexpensive are a part of the problem. All of the encounters I've had with British police have always been fantastic, they're always respectful, tell you exactly what they're stopped you for, what's going to happen next. I'm glad I live in a country where I don't have to fear the police.
prodmerc 11y ago
I wouldn't say people who expect the police to be nice are part of the problem, but the police are not your friends. They follow their instructions and protect the law, which is also not on your side. It's on the side of the abstract "majority", so you have a very high chance of not being included.

prodmerc 11y ago

> This is what it feels like to get in touch with the police? Unidirectional respect? Yes. No matter how good a police force's reputation, once you're in their hands, you better make sure you make them feel respected if you want to get out of their grasp quickly. Otherwise, trouble. That said, German police in general are pretty laid back and respectful in my experience :-)

quonn 11y ago

I suspect that he may actually have been singled out for his hair style (dreadlocks, if this photo is correct [0]), not his skin color. Now, this would _also_ be stupid and inappropriate, but it fits with the cliché, maybe due to Bob Marley or whatever. [0] http://en.solarswing.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/portret_david-180x180.png http://en.solarswing.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/portret_d...

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Tomte 11y ago
That's probably at least partially true, but I still prefer traffic stops without a weapon drawn.

mschuster91 11y ago

I know a couple of cops, and as a cop you indeed do profiling on "random" checks. You simply pick someone where common experience shows that a "hit" is likely. Like, in Munich if you search a black dude with his friends, chances are high that he's got pot on him. In other cities, being young, white and speak with "gangsta speak" and hanging out with your friends can be an invitation for the police to check if you got knives on you. Or if you generally behave nervous, check if the person has an arrest warrant open instead of just looking at the ID card. There are no official quotas to fill like in the US, but it is definitely better if you profile and have a "good looking" checked person/hit ratio.

mcguire 11y ago
"Like, in Munich if you search a black dude with his friends, chances are high that he's got pot on him." Chances are high that a black dude has pot on him, or chances are high that a dude with pot on him is black? Those are actually two different things.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox

nefitty 11y ago

"I still understand that the police does its job, but during the experience I felt an intense hatred for the office. After a multitude of such experiences it isn’t far-fetched to imagine that the parties subjected to such treatment develop an enduring hatred for the office and everything associated to it. I guess the idea of being powerless is one of the many very frustrating things about this ordeal. Can I blame people for disliking the police if many of their experiences are as negative as the one I’ve had and probably often even worse?" This realization doesn't seem to ever strike some people their entire lives. When harassment by authority is a common occurrence and a source of anxiety it's difficult to keep up appearances.

lordnacho 11y ago

This kind of behaviour needs to be filmed. It must be getting pretty cheap to do a button camera? I imagine the recent US cases of police impropriety will stir some changes. At least it held some attention for a while. On another note, when I'm treated badly by the system, I tend to feel a bit sorry for the person on the other end eventually. It's dehumanizing to not be able to behave in the way you find reasonable, and I doubt most cops think it's useful to randomly stop people for no reason. Same goes with the bureaucrat who won't approve your passport because you're smiling in the photo. These people would most likely not like to do as they do, but they are as powerless as their victims. When you meet them, you tell yourself not to get angry; they are trained to do as they are told, not to think. And that sucks for everyone.

guard-of-terra 11y ago

Police is influental enough to eventually get immunity from law, granted by lawmakers. After that they don't bother themself with any sort of politeness. If something goes wrong, they can always use force, blame the victim and get out of it. This is a standing problem, not one of us is immune, we should be fixing it in the future.