4 ms·

I was late last time, so this is my chance to ask again. Is the Urbit team familiar with Ted Nelson's work? For some context, see my question from the previous

I was late last time, so this is my chance to ask again. Is the Urbit team familiar with Ted Nelson's work? For some context, see my question from the previous Urbit thread at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10286521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10286521.

yarvin9 11y ago
How could anyone not be familiar with Ted Nelson's work? In the broad sense, anyway. I think the crucial layer that we need to implement... a lot of things... is a global immutable (aka referentially transparent) namespace. Urbit is one project building such a thing; another one is IPFS. (Urbit names are addressed by identity; IPFS names are content-addressed; so they're complementary and not competitive.) One of the reasons the Web seems like such a poor imitation of Xanadu is that it rests on this rickety foundation of a mutable binding from name to resource. Once global immutable namespaces -- Urbit, IPFS, anything -- are more widely deployed, I think Xanadu would be wise to use such a thing as a layer. But to paraphrase a famous saying: grant me the serenity to accept the code I cannot rewrite, the courage to rewrite the code I can, and the wisdom to know the difference :-)
- unimpressive 11y ago
  >I think the crucial layer that we need to implement... a lot of things... is a global immutable (aka referentially transparent) namespace. Theodore Nelson has said this himself, I can't remember the exact source but I think it was in his google talk he said that you need permanent addressing for Xanadu to work. He at least reiterates the concept (though with less principal importance) here: http://xanadu.com/XanaduSpace/btf.htm http://xanadu.com/XanaduSpace/btf.htm "STABILIZED ADDRESSES Imagine that everything you type is given a permanent, immutable address. Then to refer to a given sentence, or paragraph, you would refer to its permanent address span (start, length). This would have many benefits. This is not the way things are ordinarily done, but in this system we simulate such permanent addresses in order to get these benefits."
- e12e 11y ago
  > How could anyone not be familiar with Ted Nelson's work? In the broad sense, anyway. Computer Science is not renowned for it's diligent study of history. And that's just for those that actually study it in some form of institution, not all the people who "practice" it without any formal training. That said, the fact that Ted Nelson/the publisher have stubbornly refused to just publish for example "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" free on the (inferior) web, or at least as a DRMed ebook or merely a dead-tree re-print -- makes it unnecessarily hard for people to read up on the concept(s).
  - teh_klev 11y ago
    "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" was in print once upon a time. I bought a copy circa 1992, the copy I have is the revised edition which was published in 1987, these are photos of my copy (it's a wee bit aged looking now): http://imgur.com/a/ghtEb http://imgur.com/a/ghtEb You can still find copies on Abe Books but they're not cheap. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0914845497&sts=t http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=091484549... Glad I held on to this little bit of dead tree history even if it is the revised version.
zekevermillion 11y ago
Ted Nelson had some great thoughts, but fell short on implementing them. Nelson's Xanadu stands for the impossibility of implementing a perfect system. One cannot implement a perfect system, b/c anyone's idea of perfection must necessarily confront reality. Nelson was never willing to compromise to reality. I get the sense that Mr. Yarvin is totally willing to compromise in the face of reality, and has already done so in many respects to get this far with urbit.
- hga 11y ago
  Another important lesson is not to take decades before trying out things end to end. According to second hand report, the API to connect a UI to Xanadu was very complicated, way too complicated to expect wide adaptation. Another lesson is to avoid too long a stealth period.
  - zekevermillion 11y ago
    I'm not sure that Xanadu's stealth period was intentional. Maybe only a few people really understood what Nelson was talking about, at least until the Web came along and it was clear that Nelson was really on the right track philosophically. He could've run a superbowl ad every year until 1990 --most people would've shrugged their shoulders and wondered why this crackpot was wasting so much money on a silly piece of performance art!
state 11y ago
I love that you emailed him! Urbit is 100% open source, and (as you mention in your other post) probably a good fit for implementing Xanadu on top. Our filesystem satisfies a lot of the requirements. Want to build it? Great. We'll happily help.

yarvin9 11y ago

How could anyone not be familiar with Ted Nelson's work? In the broad sense, anyway. I think the crucial layer that we need to implement... a lot of things... is a global immutable (aka referentially transparent) namespace. Urbit is one project building such a thing; another one is IPFS. (Urbit names are addressed by identity; IPFS names are content-addressed; so they're complementary and not competitive.) One of the reasons the Web seems like such a poor imitation of Xanadu is that it rests on this rickety foundation of a mutable binding from name to resource. Once global immutable namespaces -- Urbit, IPFS, anything -- are more widely deployed, I think Xanadu would be wise to use such a thing as a layer. But to paraphrase a famous saying: grant me the serenity to accept the code I cannot rewrite, the courage to rewrite the code I can, and the wisdom to know the difference :-)

unimpressive 11y ago
>I think the crucial layer that we need to implement... a lot of things... is a global immutable (aka referentially transparent) namespace. Theodore Nelson has said this himself, I can't remember the exact source but I think it was in his google talk he said that you need permanent addressing for Xanadu to work. He at least reiterates the concept (though with less principal importance) here: http://xanadu.com/XanaduSpace/btf.htm http://xanadu.com/XanaduSpace/btf.htm "STABILIZED ADDRESSES Imagine that everything you type is given a permanent, immutable address. Then to refer to a given sentence, or paragraph, you would refer to its permanent address span (start, length). This would have many benefits. This is not the way things are ordinarily done, but in this system we simulate such permanent addresses in order to get these benefits."
e12e 11y ago
> How could anyone not be familiar with Ted Nelson's work? In the broad sense, anyway. Computer Science is not renowned for it's diligent study of history. And that's just for those that actually study it in some form of institution, not all the people who "practice" it without any formal training. That said, the fact that Ted Nelson/the publisher have stubbornly refused to just publish for example "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" free on the (inferior) web, or at least as a DRMed ebook or merely a dead-tree re-print -- makes it unnecessarily hard for people to read up on the concept(s).
- teh_klev 11y ago
  "Computer Lib/Dream Machines" was in print once upon a time. I bought a copy circa 1992, the copy I have is the revised edition which was published in 1987, these are photos of my copy (it's a wee bit aged looking now): http://imgur.com/a/ghtEb http://imgur.com/a/ghtEb You can still find copies on Abe Books but they're not cheap. http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0914845497&sts=t http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=091484549... Glad I held on to this little bit of dead tree history even if it is the revised version.

zekevermillion 11y ago

Ted Nelson had some great thoughts, but fell short on implementing them. Nelson's Xanadu stands for the impossibility of implementing a perfect system. One cannot implement a perfect system, b/c anyone's idea of perfection must necessarily confront reality. Nelson was never willing to compromise to reality. I get the sense that Mr. Yarvin is totally willing to compromise in the face of reality, and has already done so in many respects to get this far with urbit.

hga 11y ago
Another important lesson is not to take decades before trying out things end to end. According to second hand report, the API to connect a UI to Xanadu was very complicated, way too complicated to expect wide adaptation. Another lesson is to avoid too long a stealth period.
- zekevermillion 11y ago
  I'm not sure that Xanadu's stealth period was intentional. Maybe only a few people really understood what Nelson was talking about, at least until the Web came along and it was clear that Nelson was really on the right track philosophically. He could've run a superbowl ad every year until 1990 --most people would've shrugged their shoulders and wondered why this crackpot was wasting so much money on a silly piece of performance art!

state 11y ago

I love that you emailed him! Urbit is 100% open source, and (as you mention in your other post) probably a good fit for implementing Xanadu on top. Our filesystem satisfies a lot of the requirements. Want to build it? Great. We'll happily help.