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Microsoft Surface Pro 4 Review
- dman 11y agoDoes anyone have information about battery life of core m3 vs I5 vs I7 in sp4?
- JTon 11y agoWas desperately looking for a more direct comparison between the m3 and i5. I can't decide!
- brudgers 11y agoIf the m3 meets the performance requirements, then cheaper would seem to make the choice obvious and more potential battery life would be like free chocolate cake.
- JTon 11y agoAgreed. It does look like all models share the 39 Wh Battery... now we just need a performance comparison.
- brudgers 11y agoUnless the unit is replacing a recent generation i7, probably not since it is reasonable to assume that the next generation hardware will offer comparable or better performance than a device several generations old when said device is performing reasonably. There are edge cases where the difference between adequate and inadequate performance will come down to the CPU or graphics card. In those cases, the difference between a Surface and a different class of device will be more important.
- kozukumi 11y agoHmm the NAND write is a little low. Not a huge deal but a little surprising for a machine of this spec/price.
- Artistry121 11y agoHow does this compare against the Macbook?
- listic 11y ago- has a touch screen - has a stylus - has a detachable keyboard
- jmnicolas 11y ago- has Windows ;-)
- glogla 11y agoAlso it has Windows 10 instead of OS X, and probably worse touchpad (because so far, nobody else has gotten it right)
- josteink 11y agoIt's not Microsoft's fault that osx is an OS with extremely bad hardware support.
- bergie 11y agoThe Chromebook Pixels actually have as good (or better) touchpad than MacBooks
- bduerst 11y agoCan confirm - I've been using a pixel 2 for a while now and it's amazing. Kind of bummed that Microsoft didn't go with the USB Type-C on these.
- e12e 11y agoHas anyone seen how Linux/*BSD is coming along on these devices? I couldn't care less about OS X, and have little use for Windows (gaming without a high end GPU?) -- but well-integrated Linux would be nice.
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- swozey 11y agoThe Yoga 900 and this should be an interesting competition. I think I'll definitely grab one of them this year.
- braddddd 11y agoSave yourself the frustration and go w/ the Surface. I picked up a Yoga 2 last December and wish I had waited a little longer. Overall the laptop has been okay. My main issues are w/ Lenovo's track record of the hidden / self-installing bloatware on their machines that has come to light this past year. Also, I have problems w/ the trackpad reliably registering clicks and taps, and the multi-gesture support leaves a lot to be desired.
- masklinn 11y agoIsn't the Surface Book a more interesting comparison to the Yoga 900?
- swozey 11y agoI thought yes, but the price points are so astronomically different I'm not sure. We're talking $1399 for 512gb/16gb for the Y900 while the Surface Book is, I think $2199 or so. Also the Book has a discrete GPU which isn't an option on the Y900.
- masklinn 11y ago> I thought yes, but the price points are so astronomically different I'm not sure. On the one hand yes, on the other hand surely that's something to factor in a comparison between machines which seem very similar in purpose? > We're talking $1399 for 512gb/16gb for the Y900 while the Surface Book is, I think $2199 or so. Hahaha no. For 16GB/512SSD it's $2700, the $2100 option only has 8GB/256SSD, though both use an i7 and have a dGPU. > Also the Book has a discrete GPU which isn't an option on the Y900. The Book only has a discrete GPU on some options. The $1500 8GB/128SSD and the $1700 8GB/256SSD only have an iGP.
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- smrtinsert 11y agoI can't stand the material of the soft plastic keyboard case. It drives me batty.
- bhauer 11y agoI have a Surface Pro (original) and have used both the original Type Cover and the Type Cover 2 (illuminated). Both are fine for a tablet/laptop hybrid. I tested the Type Cover 4 a couple weekends back and it's fantastic. If I weren't switching to a Surface Book, I'd definitely be considering a Pro 4 with that new type cover. The key feel is amazingly good for the size and weight.
- scholia 11y agoThe new Type Cover also works with Surface Pro 3 as well....
- skrowl 11y agoUnfortunately, his review sample only had the weak Intel integrated GPU. I can't wait to see some numbers from the models with the nVidia GPU.
- coreymgilmore 11y agoThere is no nVidia chip in the Surface Pro 4. I believe you are thinking of the Surface Book. https://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/devices/surface-pro-4#techspec-block https://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/devices/surface-pro-...
- guelo 11y agoThis thing looks nice but I think the Surface Book is going to be the breakout device for Microsoft in this generation.
- 6stringmerc 11y agoI agree. The Surface Pro 4 is an excellent device, definitely an achievement in the 'laptop replacement' game. No OS fork is a huge win to me. As an ultrabook user currently, I'm targeting the Surface Book outright for my next machine. It simply has all the features I need (and a little more in the real graphics card) and even has engineered benefits for things I don't want now but will probably want when music software catches up (good touch input). I saw a lot of complaints following Apple showing off their "one plug to control them all" design because of how hardware interfaces and musicians/DJs/performers love redundancy and back-up plans, so I'll be interested to see if they start taking market share away from Apple...it'll be slow, if it happens, but I'm interested!
- mcintyre1994 11y agoJust out of interest because you seem like you might know - does Windows across devices do a good job with audio latency? Presumably Windows as a desktop OS has it down, does that carry to phones and tablets too?
- tlack 11y agoAbleton seems pretty good lately on Surface Pro 3 + Windows 8, and I don't find it sluggish or buggy, but there is some latency with audio recording on the built-in card. I haven't tried using an external audio interface (which are incredibly cheap these days).
- eropple 11y agoWindows still trails OS X and Core Audio here unless you're using ASIO. There are no real ASIO drivers (AFAIK) for the Surface Pro 3, though ASIO4ALL works if you want to dedicate your sound card to just ASIO apps (for me that sucks, because I want to hear other audio on my system at the same time!). With my Macs, though, it pretty much just works. I'd probably use an external interface if I absolutely had to use Windows (and I'd want a bigger screen than the Surface Pro, probably the Surface Book and even that's cramped).
- nogridbag 11y agoThey also posted a Surface Book "First Look" today with a couple of GPU benchmarks: http://www.anandtech.com/show/9732/the-microsoft-surface-book-first-look http://www.anandtech.com/show/9732/the-microsoft-surface-boo...
- jonknee 11y agoThat's what I was looking for, thanks. tl;dr: > The Surface Book is a very interesting take on the Ultrabook by Microsoft. I’ll need some more time with it to get a full review completed, but initial impressions are that it’s a solid device with a great display, a good keyboard, and a generous trackpad. The overall device is not as thin or light as some other Ultrabooks, but generally those don’t pack in 70 Wh of battery and a real GPU. Stay tuned for a full review soon.
- nogridbag 11y agoLooks like there's a massive amount of reviews for the SB coming in today: https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3pmrt1/surface_book_surface_pro_4_reviews_coming_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3pmrt1/surface_boo...
- fumar 11y agoI have a Surface Pro 3, and owned a Pro 1 (1st gen), I have to applaud Msoft for iterating quickly on their hardware line. Its been ~3 years and the (personal experience) general consumer approval of the Surface line has been gradually changing. It went from an iPad competitor, which was a terrible comparison, to a generating its own category, a tablet that can replace your laptop. I typically skip a generation to upgrade machines, but the Pro 4 (based on this review) solves all the small quips I had with mine. Its looking like I am going to upgrade to the Surface Pro with Iris graphics. Still on the fence about the Book, I don't really need the laptopness.
- arethuza 11y agoAt work I have a Surface Pro 3 and a powerful multi-screen desktop running Windows 2012 - this is an excellent combination.
- martin-adams 11y agoI'm using a Surface Pro 2 and it's still an amazing piece of hardware. I'm eagerly waiting the Surface Book release in the UK because my biggest bugbear is actually using it on your lap, but having the comfort of a tablet for use in the evening. On my desk I have it hooked up to 2 monitors (resulting in 3 screens) and it just works really well. Quiet and fast.
- fumar 11y agoI recommend you check out the Surface Pro 4. The new hinge (implemented on the Pro 3) is quite versatile, and I have used it on my lap without much hassle.
- eropple 11y agoI like my Pro 3, but I think it's still a real pain to use in one's lap. They're not as good as they should be on airplanes, either - the hinge-plus-cover thing requires a lot of front-to-back real estate. That's pretty much why I'm buying a Surface Book as soon as I can.
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- bkjelden 11y agoTo me, it's almost as much of a reflection on Microsoft's OEMs as it is on Microsoft that, in 3 years, Microsoft has iterated from it's first device, which was a commercial flop, to a tablet/ultrabook that's only real criticism is the lack of a USB Type-C port. Where would Microsoft be today if they had given up on their OEMs 5 years sooner, and gone head to head with Apple on hardware?
- josefresco 11y agoThe OEM's participated in a race to the bottom in an effort to maximize how many people bought PC's. This caused damage to the Windows/PC brand. By the time they pivoted to "ultrabooks" the damage was done and these brands were seen as low end/discount unable to produce quality PC's. I'm not sure that Microsoft could have stopped that, even if they rolled out a "high end" Surface like device 5 years prior. It believe it's the lack of a low end product that makes Apple, and now Microsoft attractive to premium buyers.
- chimeracoder 11y ago> The OEM's participated in a race to the bottom in an effort to maximize how many people bought PC's. This caused damage to the Windows/PC brand. That's what strengthened the Windows brand in the first place - availability, unbiquity, and the sense of it being the "default" ("nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft"). Over time, the lack of control over the quality resulted in variation, and Apple was eventually able to capitalize on that by selling themselves as consistent experience, but that's only within the last decade. The OEM situation with Windows has been the case literally since before Windows (it existed during the DOS era as well). It's good that Microsoft is finally responding to this pressure and providing a default, consistent experience (analogous to the Nexus experience on Android). But I wouldn't say that it's what did damage to the Windows brand, because without it, there wouldn't be a powerful Windows/Microsoft brand in the first place.
- CountSessine 11y agoExactly - how can you hurt the Windows brand when the whole point of the product was to commoditize the hardware to bring the cost of the total solution - hardware + software - down in price? Microsoft's goal has always been to encourage and in some cases even mandate interoperability. That's typically been thought of as a good thing, but you can't be surprised when hardware makers do everything they can to cut corners - when you're selling a commodity you can't charge anything above the prevailing marginal cost of production. The only path to success is to ruthlessly cut the cost of production.
- jbssm 11y agoStrangely my workflow is in a place where most of my graphic programs also exist on Windows (Lightroom mostly, everything else is easily changeable). It's my terminal workflow that I can only use on a Mac/Linux. Zsh, Vim, Tmux, LateX, Python and mostly a package manager (Apt on Linux, Homebrew on the Mac). Most of which I can just configure in a new system pulling the config files from my Github repository in less than 15 minutes after a fresh install. That's what's mainly holding me from going back to windows (and the Application update process which is still awful as I can see from my VMware installation of Windows 10... seriously, updating the various components of Visual Studio in a semi manual way is just ridiculous), is there any good alternative for the Shell in windows that doesn't involve considerable tinking?
- nilkn 11y agoOn Windows 10, I use babun along with a Vagrant VM for terminal-based development. babun is a Cygwin distribution that's actually configured nicely out of the box with oh-my-zsh, etc. It comes with a very pretty terminal, a package manager, and more. That said, it's still Cygwin, which means I try to avoid doing complex, heavy-duty development in it. For that, I just spin up a Vagrant VM. It's insanely easy.
- jbssm 11y agoThis is a nice work method. But my biggest grip with it is that I use the GPU for CUDA calculations. At least in OSX it's not possible to directly access the GPU trough a VM (in Vagrant or any other way), while in Linux it's possible with KVM. How does it work on Windows?
- kryptiskt 11y agoMSYS2 uses pacman like Arch and has a lot of packages https://msys2.github.io https://msys2.github.io
- berntb 11y agoIs Homebrew a credible replacement for Apt? (I went with Linux on the desktop a few years ago because I was cursing too much over the OS X package managers. Maybe it was my fault.)
- lewisl9029 11y agoPersonally, I actually prefer the 16:9 aspect ratio for any screen that has sufficient raw vertical resolution to not hinder productivity. I feel that once a device gets past the point where the lack of vertical resolution limits productivity, the marginal utility offered by even more vertical resolution becomes rather insignificant, to the point where I'd probably benefit more from having more horizontal resolution for things like snapping windows side-by-side and not having black bars on 16:9 video.
- ajross 11y agoReally? I find exactly the opposite: the marginal utility of more vertical space (for code, mostly) continues increasing all the way until I have to physically move my neck to see it. I have a 24" monitor next to my main screen oriented vertically for exactly this purpose.
- lewisl9029 11y agoI'm generally more productive with a split screen view for code, with either different files on each side, or different parts of the same file on each side. This kind of workflow needs quite a bit of horizontal resolution to work well.
- jameshart 11y agoInteresting - a 16:9 screen splits into two 8:9 screens - almost squares. A 3:2 screen splits into two 3:4 screens, much more useful document-style aspect ratios. That said, with the surface/surfacebook, we're talking about small 12-13 inch screens anyway, not enough physical real estate for that kind of work. You'll likely connect to a larger external screen if you're looking for a splitscreen workspace.
- e12e 11y agoReading this now in a roughly 2:1 split on my Thinkpad t420s (16:9, 1600px:900px). On the right, i have a terminal window, with no margins, and no window decorations. On the left Firefox with HN open, which because of the "forced" margins set by stylesheets, end up being a squarish "page", with a regularish (portrait) text block in the middle... -FF---------Term-- mmm mm |mmmmmm mmm mm |mmmmmm mmm mm |mmmmmm |mmmmmm mmm mm |mmmmmm |mmmmmm |mmmmmm So while some people probably prefer a 1:1 split, I usually end up with a 2:1 or maybe even closer to 3:1.
- rottyguy 11y agoAnyone else think we're getting a little hyperbolic with the weight of these things? "The first Surface Pro was a sizable 2.0 lb monster tablet which packed Ultrabook class components into a chassis that was over 0.5-inches thick. It was powerful, but heavy and the 16:9 form factor was not ideal for a tablet."
- sotojuan 11y agoYeah. I've had people tell me how heavy the 13" Retina MBP is ~_~
- mwfunk 11y agoA tablet that's 2 lbs and > 0.5" thick is gargantuan by today's standards. Less so at the time of the original Surface Pro release, but still huge- it was 50% heavier than, and 1/3 thicker than its main tablet competition at the time (the iPad 4). I think the extra size and weight is totally understandable given that it's a full-blown PC, but Microsoft's marketing message is that this is something that will replace both your laptop and your tablet with no compromises. They've used that phrase a lot (no compromises), but to a heavy tablet user the extra size and weight in tablet mode would've seemed like a huge compromise. 1/4 lb isn't much of anything in absolute terms, but in relative terms for that product category the hyperbole is probably warranted.
- potatolicious 11y agoI think it's reasonable criticism in-context - this is a tablet, not a laptop. A laptop's weight is only relevant when you're transporting it, otherwise it sits on some solid surface and how much it weighs is fairly inconsequential. A tablet's weight is felt in most use cases during regular use. A lot of people hold tablets in their hands while they're using them rather than set them on some solid surface with a stand - this makes them a fair bit more weight-sensitive than laptops. Same reason why the 16:9 form factor is fair criticism - it makes the tablet really awkwardly balanced when used in portrait mode, something that isn't an issue with laptops which can only be used in one orientation.
- ximeng 11y agoI really liked my Surface Pro 1 when I got it. There were a number of small problems such as missing key up events that resulted in stuck Ctrl keys, cursor getting stuck in one place, random resets overnight, but nothing that I couldn't live with. Form factor was good and the hardware just about good enough all round - slightly small hard disk, one USB is a little annoying, but again, can live with it. I recommended it a few times to people and online. Unfortunately the power supply died one week out of warranty. There was a long back and forth with support after one person said they could replace it free of charge since there were symptoms within the warranty period, and another said that person had made a mistake and that I'd need to buy a replacement. Not a good experience and device was out of commission for a long while waiting for their responses. I bought a third party power supply, which I don't really trust, but clearly the 100 USD Microsoft replacement power supply is not reliable either and is twice the price. Now the power button is becoming unreliable and if it goes I'll be unable to use the device at all as there's no other way to turn it on, and it does reset itself from time to time still. I don't want to move it too much in case it turns off and I can't get it back on again. I still really like the form factor, but what a review like this doesn't capture is the long-term reliability and service quality that comes with the device, and that's what's most likely to put me off buying another Surface Pro / Surface Book.
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- hauget 11y agoThis is exactly what's holding me back from buying Surface devices. I rather stick to Thinkpads and Macs that I can replace/fix easily and which have great build quality/durability and available parts.
- pmelendez 11y ago> Macs that I can replace/fix easily How come? MacBooks were the first laptops in becaming fix unfriendly and every vendor is actually following that lead.
- ximeng 11y agoI really liked my Surface Pro 1 when I got it. There were a number of small problems such as missing key up events that resulted in stuck Ctrl keys, cursor getting stuck in one place, random resets overnight, but nothing that I couldn't live with. Form factor was good and the hardware just about good enough all round - slightly small hard disk, one USB is a little annoying, but again, can live with it. I recommended it a few times to people and online. Unfortunately the power supply died one week out of warranty. There was a long back and forth with support after one person said they could replace it free of charge since there were symptoms within the warranty period, and another said that person had made a mistake and that I'd need to buy a replacement. Not a good experience and device was out of commission for a long while waiting for their responses. I bought a third party power supply, which I don't really trust, but clearly the 100 USD Microsoft replacement power supply is not reliable either and is twice the price. Now the power button is becoming unreliable and if it goes I'll be unable to use the device at all as there's no other way to turn it on, and it does reset itself from time to time still. I don't want to move it too much in case it turns off and I can't get it back on again. I still really like the form factor, but what a review like this doesn't capture is the long-term reliability and service quality that comes with the device, and that's what's most likely to put me off buying another Surface Pro / Surface Book.
- drglitch 11y agoSerious question: Can someone please sit on top of a surface and surfacebook (in a closed position)? These devices have thinner-than-ever glass (and in case of sb, an air gap) and i am concerned that carrying them in a backpack can get them destroyed by other books/whatever. Would be great to find out otherwise :)
- drglitch 11y agoTo answer my own question: http://mashable.com/2015/10/21/microsoft-surface-book-review/#jW28vdgB5kqR http://mashable.com/2015/10/21/microsoft-surface-book-review... > "I placed the Surface Book on my carpeted floor (office-style, so a pretty low-pile carpet). Then I held onto my desk and chair. I lifted both feet off the ground and gingerly lowered them onto the clipboard side of the Surface Book -- my heels and the majority of my weight were rested on the hinge. I did not move my feet or jump and down, but the device survived my full body weight (roughly 150 pounds) resting on top of it. In short, I do not see a fundamental flaw in Microsoft’s unique hinge design."
- GigabyteCoin 11y agoWould you sit on top of your laptop? I carry a thin plastic laptop in my backpack for years and have never had a problem with books crushing it. Just know that you have an expensive piece of equipment in your bag and don't toss it around.
- drglitch 11y agoi'm always careful with electronics, but the flight attendants and baggage handlers often arent unfortunately :)
- opendomain 11y agoI purchased a surface pro 3 when it first came out, and while it is a great improvement, it still can not compete with the iPad * More Apps on itunes * The glass is very easy to crack on the surface Pro * Microsoft requires that you register the device. I suppose this is the norm for IPhones, but this detracts from the PC experience * the Surface pro is not adept for comfort viewing - on the lap or in bed. * It is still a PC that tries to be like a Tablet rather than a true tablet. It has a lot of very annoying issues: when watching a video in a browser, it sometimes goes in the background, requiring you to tab to the correct screen. The brightness and orientation take six clicks to adjust (this was fixed with Windows 10 in Tablet mode). * The surface pro runs MUCH hotter - sometimes too hot to hold * The iPad is more competitive for cost for the same specs
- ManFromUranus 11y agoThat's EXACTLY what it is, I believe that was the actual design philosophy behind the thing, you are stating this like they messed up or didn't understand what they were building. Whereas it's much more likely (by the sounds of it) that you didn't need a PC that can be a tablet, you needed an iPad. So I think they built the thing correctly, you probably should have just bought an iPad instead of Surface Pro.
- vegabook 11y agoNice. Tier 1. Supercalafragilistic. Yet when I think about this amazingly cool device , as a developer, I feel no inspiration. I don't see what I'm going to develop for this thing that will be different from what I'll be developing for a bog-standard, 400-dollar Dell Inspiron. Okay I might stick a bit of touch in there but I won't be making it touch-first. Microsoft acknowledges as much with this amazing keyboard. The pen is actually cool, but no cooler than the Wacom I have been able to buy for more than a decade, and for which all use cases have already been deployed. There's not a whole lot more one can do with a computer pen without going to an actual piece of paper. I see MS Edge's annotations feature and I raise it "show me cross browser". So yes I'd love to own one. But I'm not having any eureka moments. Perhaps the most interesting aspect of this device is not the device at all, but what it reveals about the rejuvenated Microsoft. That this company which many were dismissing as history, is able to bring out a product, even though fairly conventional, that easily challenges Apple, suggests to me that MS is getting its mojo back, and I'll be taking notice when it talks software. That to me is what's greatest about this release. Not yet another (highly competent, indeed stunning, but conventional) notebook.
- JBiserkov 11y agoI disagree - the experience of writing with the pen, on the screen is totally not the same as writing on a Wacom tablet. The pen can also be used as an ultra-portable mouse replacement - it fixes the "fat fingers problem" that plagues most touch screen interfaces and allows precise clicks, right-clicks and HOVERS which makes using multi level menus a breeze. Regarding cross-browser annotations, that's something developers need to fix, :wink:, :wink: I leave you with the mention of Staffpad[0], an amazing app for composing music which combines pen, touch, and some heavy processing into an amazing experience. [0] http://hanselminutes.com/473/developing-staffpad-a-new-class-of-music-notation-application-with-dr-matthew-tesch http://hanselminutes.com/473/developing-staffpad-a-new-class...
- nextos 11y agoI don't like Windows that much, because I prefer open solutions. But is indeed a fantastic device. Hardware is pretty similar to SP3, which is on its way to run smoothly under Linux. Quite soon everything will work with a stock kernel, plus Marvell drivers for wireless and the camera ones. With a bit of ingenuity, I guess it'd be easy to come up with a nice tiling window manager setup.