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I wouldn't take the owner satisfaction ratings too seriously, people who buy Tesla cars are mostly rich enthusiasts of new technologies and will quietly deal wi

I wouldn't take the owner satisfaction ratings too seriously, people who buy Tesla cars are mostly rich enthusiasts of new technologies and will quietly deal with a lot of issues before starting to criticize the car. If someone doesn't care about the electric engine, there's really no reason to buy a Tesla - for the same price you can get a much more luxurious german car with proven technology. It's similar to people buying exotic sports cars - they know the reliability is worse than in "normal" cars and they're much more expensive to maintain, but that's not the reason why they bought the car, so they won't complain about it.

vhold 11y ago
Also when you spend over $100,000 on a car you're less likely to want to diminish its status value and other peoples' perceptions of your choices by complaining about it.
- pinkrooftop 11y ago
  Jaguar owners have been an exception before recent quality improvements
  - stan_rogers 11y ago
    The forearm burn you got from manually lashing your valves was a point of pride. And when you complained about the Lucas electrics, you weren't really complaining about your Jaguar, were you?
bri3d 11y ago
From watching a few friends own Teslas, it seems that they offer a superior repair and maintenance experience to many German car dealers, which helps with owner satisfaction in the face of reliability issues. It certainly doesn't bode well for Tesla's attempt to move to high-volume, lower-margin production, though.
- pkorzeniewski 11y ago
  Tesla has no other choice than to offer the best customer experience - otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance on the market as a new player. The question is how long will they keep it up?
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    At 25% margins, they can afford to keep it up long enough.
    - recursive 11y ago
      Is that high or low?
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Pretty high for a car company (typical margins are under 10%). http://www.statista.com/statistics/280346/ebit-margin-of-the-leading-car-manufacturers/ http://www.statista.com/statistics/280346/ebit-margin-of-the... http://marketrealist.com/2015/02/intense-competition-leads-low-profit-margins-automakers/ http://marketrealist.com/2015/02/intense-competition-leads-l...
  - calinet6 11y ago
    This is really the wrong question. Offering the best customer experience should, looked at systemically (aka in the context of reality), be a return on investment. Looking at it any other way is simply incorrect.
- toddmorey 11y ago
  I think they are doing the right thing and exerting a lot of effort and eating a lot of cost to make right for their customers. Which makes me feel better about the ownership experience but nervous about the company's path to profit.
- r00fus 11y ago
  Tesla is in Apple's position about 10-15 years ago. Apple had a solid product (a machine that ran OSX), a loyal fanbase, and great support ratings. They did eventually translate their brand value to mass-market dominance, but only through sidestepping into other markets using iPod and then iPhone. I wonder if that analogy fits for Tesla?
awqrre 11y ago
I don't know about all the other technology but the electric motor(s) should be much more reliable then the conventional combustion drivetrain
- joosters 11y ago
  Eventually, yes. But internal combustion engines have a head start spanning decades of fixes and reliability improvements.
  - blisterpeanuts 11y ago
    Isn't one of the Tesla's (and other EVs') advantages that the electric drive train is mechanically simpler, not to mention smaller, than an ICE? No cylinders, starters, water pump, oxygen-fuel mix gauge, and dozens of other things that can and do go wrong. On the other hand, it sounds like Tesla's software and firmware are pretty complicated, meaning bugs in the 1.0 release, updates that may need to be rolled back if unexpected edge cases are discovered, hacks, faulty soldering, bad chips etc. And would lightning do a number on a Tesla? Maybe on any car, actually.
    - joosters 11y ago
      This reminded me of a reddit comment about Australian(?) army vehicles: they deliberately use older car technology like distributers and carburetors because modern electrical systems are far too complicated to repair out in the middle of nowhere. They might be OK against lightning strikes. Then again, with any luck the charge will travel through the metal chassis and avoid ruining any components. You're definitely protected from lightning sitting inside the car. The engine? Maybe. Could be a fun experiment with high voltage :)
  - ZeroGravitas 11y ago
    I've read that in high usage scenarios (busses, taxis) the reduced maintenance is already, along with reduced fuel costs, one of the things that makes electric vehicles financially viable, even with the higher up front costs
toddmorey 11y ago
I hear you, but it's important to note that it appears that Mercedes (a storied German luxury car with proven technology) currently has an even a lower reliability rating. That makes me think it's likely more than just company age and experience, I think there is something about a company's risk tolerance and how it relates to their eagerness to implement new tech. As the article states, the blander "appliance-like" cars might just be the most reliable. And while I totally agree that owner bias is impacting the customer sat numbers, I think there's also a bit of a lift coming from Tesla's customer service, which gets pretty high marks. One of the smartest things they've done as a company is to invest heavily in service and responsiveness. A reliability issue sucks, but much less so if it can be resolved pleasantly and quickly.
- pasta_2 11y ago
  Tesla has a small rabid fan base (here and on Reddit) that are willing to overlook its shortcomings. If Tesla actually delivers on its Model 3 any time soon and manages to penetrate the mainstream at all, you can be sure those customers won't be giving Tesla a pass. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/3mtoxa/im_not_super_happy_with_my_tesla_s/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/3mtoxa/im_not_... Take a look at that thread in /r/teslamotors (which is full of Tesla fanboys). Tesla's problems with quality and reliability are talked about as if that's what they're known for, and the comments are being upvoted (at the same time they're very optimistic about it improving but that's to be expected given its /r/teslamotors). The problem for Tesla is they are 1990s Apple. A bigger problem for them is if when Apple enters the car market in 2020, they come in as 2015 Apple.
  - razster 11y ago
    I own stock in the company but not anywhere near an owner of their cars, but my fan-boyism is based on the fact that this company is trying to push other larger car manufacturers into pushing forward instead of the same old same. Yeah they have some issues but they're quick at ironing them out on the new set of cars. If and when the Model 3 releases will be the telling for Tesla. For now I will keep my stock.
  - 11y ago

vhold 11y ago

Also when you spend over $100,000 on a car you're less likely to want to diminish its status value and other peoples' perceptions of your choices by complaining about it.

pinkrooftop 11y ago
Jaguar owners have been an exception before recent quality improvements
- stan_rogers 11y ago
  The forearm burn you got from manually lashing your valves was a point of pride. And when you complained about the Lucas electrics, you weren't really complaining about your Jaguar, were you?

bri3d 11y ago

From watching a few friends own Teslas, it seems that they offer a superior repair and maintenance experience to many German car dealers, which helps with owner satisfaction in the face of reliability issues. It certainly doesn't bode well for Tesla's attempt to move to high-volume, lower-margin production, though.

pkorzeniewski 11y ago
Tesla has no other choice than to offer the best customer experience - otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance on the market as a new player. The question is how long will they keep it up?
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  At 25% margins, they can afford to keep it up long enough.
  - recursive 11y ago
    Is that high or low?
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Pretty high for a car company (typical margins are under 10%). http://www.statista.com/statistics/280346/ebit-margin-of-the-leading-car-manufacturers/ http://www.statista.com/statistics/280346/ebit-margin-of-the... http://marketrealist.com/2015/02/intense-competition-leads-low-profit-margins-automakers/ http://marketrealist.com/2015/02/intense-competition-leads-l...
- calinet6 11y ago
  This is really the wrong question. Offering the best customer experience should, looked at systemically (aka in the context of reality), be a return on investment. Looking at it any other way is simply incorrect.
toddmorey 11y ago
I think they are doing the right thing and exerting a lot of effort and eating a lot of cost to make right for their customers. Which makes me feel better about the ownership experience but nervous about the company's path to profit.
r00fus 11y ago
Tesla is in Apple's position about 10-15 years ago. Apple had a solid product (a machine that ran OSX), a loyal fanbase, and great support ratings. They did eventually translate their brand value to mass-market dominance, but only through sidestepping into other markets using iPod and then iPhone. I wonder if that analogy fits for Tesla?

awqrre 11y ago

I don't know about all the other technology but the electric motor(s) should be much more reliable then the conventional combustion drivetrain

joosters 11y ago
Eventually, yes. But internal combustion engines have a head start spanning decades of fixes and reliability improvements.
- blisterpeanuts 11y ago
  Isn't one of the Tesla's (and other EVs') advantages that the electric drive train is mechanically simpler, not to mention smaller, than an ICE? No cylinders, starters, water pump, oxygen-fuel mix gauge, and dozens of other things that can and do go wrong. On the other hand, it sounds like Tesla's software and firmware are pretty complicated, meaning bugs in the 1.0 release, updates that may need to be rolled back if unexpected edge cases are discovered, hacks, faulty soldering, bad chips etc. And would lightning do a number on a Tesla? Maybe on any car, actually.
  - joosters 11y ago
    This reminded me of a reddit comment about Australian(?) army vehicles: they deliberately use older car technology like distributers and carburetors because modern electrical systems are far too complicated to repair out in the middle of nowhere. They might be OK against lightning strikes. Then again, with any luck the charge will travel through the metal chassis and avoid ruining any components. You're definitely protected from lightning sitting inside the car. The engine? Maybe. Could be a fun experiment with high voltage :)
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  I've read that in high usage scenarios (busses, taxis) the reduced maintenance is already, along with reduced fuel costs, one of the things that makes electric vehicles financially viable, even with the higher up front costs

toddmorey 11y ago

I hear you, but it's important to note that it appears that Mercedes (a storied German luxury car with proven technology) currently has an even a lower reliability rating. That makes me think it's likely more than just company age and experience, I think there is something about a company's risk tolerance and how it relates to their eagerness to implement new tech. As the article states, the blander "appliance-like" cars might just be the most reliable. And while I totally agree that owner bias is impacting the customer sat numbers, I think there's also a bit of a lift coming from Tesla's customer service, which gets pretty high marks. One of the smartest things they've done as a company is to invest heavily in service and responsiveness. A reliability issue sucks, but much less so if it can be resolved pleasantly and quickly.

pasta_2 11y ago
Tesla has a small rabid fan base (here and on Reddit) that are willing to overlook its shortcomings. If Tesla actually delivers on its Model 3 any time soon and manages to penetrate the mainstream at all, you can be sure those customers won't be giving Tesla a pass. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/3mtoxa/im_not_super_happy_with_my_tesla_s/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/3mtoxa/im_not_... Take a look at that thread in /r/teslamotors (which is full of Tesla fanboys). Tesla's problems with quality and reliability are talked about as if that's what they're known for, and the comments are being upvoted (at the same time they're very optimistic about it improving but that's to be expected given its /r/teslamotors). The problem for Tesla is they are 1990s Apple. A bigger problem for them is if when Apple enters the car market in 2020, they come in as 2015 Apple.
- razster 11y ago
  I own stock in the company but not anywhere near an owner of their cars, but my fan-boyism is based on the fact that this company is trying to push other larger car manufacturers into pushing forward instead of the same old same. Yeah they have some issues but they're quick at ironing them out on the new set of cars. If and when the Model 3 releases will be the telling for Tesla. For now I will keep my stock.
- 11y ago