4 ms·

>Employers should ask themselves what their implicit, and/or private reasons are for preferring younger candidates over older ones Old people tend to not want

by hueving 11y ago

>Employers should ask themselves what their implicit, and/or private reasons are for preferring younger candidates over older ones Old people tend to not want shitty deals.

arethuza 11y ago
I read a biography of Napoleon recently and it mentioned that he recognised that older more experienced troops tender to be much better at fighting but that they were also more cautious about picking their fights - younger inexperienced troops could actually be more useful in some circumstances in that they were more likely to rush in without any concerns for the risks in an, often vain, desire for glory.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Young devs today tend to be opinionated - you can't aim them at any random target. But in reality, that doesn't change much; just pick the devs with 'right' opinion and you get the same pattern of behaviour as with Napoleon's young soldiers. Opinion != experience.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Young devs have, in my experience, have always been pretty opinionated.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
  That was the preferred french tactic shock attack in column is much easier/cheaper to train as opposed to the well trained british musketry. It's why Al Queada use suicide bombers its cheap to train and does not need high quality recruits
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Interesting to see the requirements for the elite Old Guard unit of the Imperial Guards: - under 35 years of age at entry - at least 10 years' service - at least three campaigns (some had as many as 12 campaigns) - had to literally face enemy fire at the front and survive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard I wonder what the tech equivalent is?
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      I'd guess some obscure teams of consultants that are known internally by big corporations, but otherwise unknown in the IT-showbusiness world. They show up where there is real work to be done, and hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Most big organizations have a few of them. Sysadmins in particular tend to have operations "war stories", involving sorting out some incredibly stressful disaster. Servers on fire, company losing money by the second, that kind of thing. A lot of people found out on 2001-09-11 what "disaster recovery" meant. There are even literal combat sysadmins; I remember seeing a job advert for senior telecomms engineer in Iraq during the war, offering something like $100k/month. Programming involves less drama, but every now and again you need the services of someone who knows the system inside out and has a collection of weird tricks that will get you working again.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > It's why Al Queada use suicide bombers its cheap to train and does not need high quality recruits I think Al Qaeda uses suicide bombers mostly because they're hard to detect and let you strike a target with zero warning; it's an ultimate guerilla tactic. That young engineers tend to be particularly happy to wear the explosive vests seem to be incidental and not the reason for this tactic. I agree with your French/British example though.
michaelt 11y ago
Right, but being unwillingly unemployed is the shittiest deal of all. If old people have a great deal from their current employer, they'll stay employed and the number of old people in the industry will remain constant. If old people find themselves unemployed due to a reorg or startup failure or whatever, they'll take the best deal on offer - and the number of old people in the industry will remain constant. If the number of old people in the industry is falling, I'd be interested in some statistics about where they're going.
- scholia 11y ago
  Companies like IBM and HP are busy shedding experienced US-based staff and replacing them with relatively inexperienced but much cheaper workers in India. I don't know how many are getting jobs, but I'd guess that a lot are taking early retirement. If so, the number of older workers is falling....
noarchy 11y ago
Older people don't want shitty deals, and they've seen it all. They've seen the latest fads in both the development sphere (every new framework under the sun), as well as management (think: Agile, Scrum, etc). They can smell the BS, and many have lost their inhibitions enough that they'll call out the BS. That gets them labelled as "toxic" or "not team players". Younger devs, meanwhile, will put in the overtime every two weeks when the latest, predictable "sprint" crisis occurs.

by hueving 11y ago

>Employers should ask themselves what their implicit, and/or private reasons are for preferring younger candidates over older ones Old people tend to not want shitty deals.

arethuza 11y ago

I read a biography of Napoleon recently and it mentioned that he recognised that older more experienced troops tender to be much better at fighting but that they were also more cautious about picking their fights - younger inexperienced troops could actually be more useful in some circumstances in that they were more likely to rush in without any concerns for the risks in an, often vain, desire for glory.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Young devs today tend to be opinionated - you can't aim them at any random target. But in reality, that doesn't change much; just pick the devs with 'right' opinion and you get the same pattern of behaviour as with Napoleon's young soldiers. Opinion != experience.
- arethuza 11y ago
  Young devs have, in my experience, have always been pretty opinionated.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
That was the preferred french tactic shock attack in column is much easier/cheaper to train as opposed to the well trained british musketry. It's why Al Queada use suicide bombers its cheap to train and does not need high quality recruits
- arethuza 11y ago
  Interesting to see the requirements for the elite Old Guard unit of the Imperial Guards: - under 35 years of age at entry - at least 10 years' service - at least three campaigns (some had as many as 12 campaigns) - had to literally face enemy fire at the front and survive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Guard I wonder what the tech equivalent is?
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    I'd guess some obscure teams of consultants that are known internally by big corporations, but otherwise unknown in the IT-showbusiness world. They show up where there is real work to be done, and hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Most big organizations have a few of them. Sysadmins in particular tend to have operations "war stories", involving sorting out some incredibly stressful disaster. Servers on fire, company losing money by the second, that kind of thing. A lot of people found out on 2001-09-11 what "disaster recovery" meant. There are even literal combat sysadmins; I remember seeing a job advert for senior telecomms engineer in Iraq during the war, offering something like $100k/month. Programming involves less drama, but every now and again you need the services of someone who knows the system inside out and has a collection of weird tricks that will get you working again.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  > It's why Al Queada use suicide bombers its cheap to train and does not need high quality recruits I think Al Qaeda uses suicide bombers mostly because they're hard to detect and let you strike a target with zero warning; it's an ultimate guerilla tactic. That young engineers tend to be particularly happy to wear the explosive vests seem to be incidental and not the reason for this tactic. I agree with your French/British example though.

michaelt 11y ago

Right, but being unwillingly unemployed is the shittiest deal of all. If old people have a great deal from their current employer, they'll stay employed and the number of old people in the industry will remain constant. If old people find themselves unemployed due to a reorg or startup failure or whatever, they'll take the best deal on offer - and the number of old people in the industry will remain constant. If the number of old people in the industry is falling, I'd be interested in some statistics about where they're going.

scholia 11y ago
Companies like IBM and HP are busy shedding experienced US-based staff and replacing them with relatively inexperienced but much cheaper workers in India. I don't know how many are getting jobs, but I'd guess that a lot are taking early retirement. If so, the number of older workers is falling....

noarchy 11y ago

Older people don't want shitty deals, and they've seen it all. They've seen the latest fads in both the development sphere (every new framework under the sun), as well as management (think: Agile, Scrum, etc). They can smell the BS, and many have lost their inhibitions enough that they'll call out the BS. That gets them labelled as "toxic" or "not team players". Younger devs, meanwhile, will put in the overtime every two weeks when the latest, predictable "sprint" crisis occurs.