4 ms·

To be fair, "humans" covers quite different ground when you're talking about on the one hand, spear hunters and shifting-cultivation agriculturists, and on the

To be fair, "humans" covers quite different ground when you're talking about on the one hand, spear hunters and shifting-cultivation agriculturists, and on the other, industrial agribusiness, roads and concrete.

dalke 11y ago
You're right. Somewhere in my edits I dropped out the important term "Neolithic". ... Though perhaps 'Stone Age' would be more appropriate given the long time that humans were an apex species.
- JulianMorrison 11y ago
  It's probably a bit messy, because we started deforestation in the mesolithic I think, and we had an uneasy standoff with megafaunal predators well into the iron age. From Wikipedia: With the advent of agriculture, larger areas began to be deforested, and fire became the prime tool to clear land for crops. In Europe there is little solid evidence before 7000 BC. Mesolithic foragers used fire to create openings for red deer and wild boar. In Great Britain, shade-tolerant species such as oak and ash are replaced in the pollen record by hazels, brambles, grasses and nettles. Removal of the forests led to decreased transpiration, resulting in the formation of upland peat bogs. Widespread decrease in elm pollen across Europe between 8400–8300 BC and 7200–7000 BC, starting in southern Europe and gradually moving north to Great Britain, may represent land clearing by fire at the onset of Neolithic agriculture.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Good quote. Yes, another aspect of this is which wild do we want to have? Which is why Pleistocene rewilding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_rewilding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_rewilding ) is a thing. From that page: > Opponents argue that there has been more than enough time for communities to evolve in the absence of mega-fauna, and thus the reintroduction of large mammals could thwart ecosystem dynamics and possibly cause collapse. Life is messy.
e12e 11y ago
This discussion and the term "rewilding" reminds me of Kim Stanley Robinson's excellent Nebula Award winning novel "2312" - and the "reanimation" project which is part of the complex web of plot lines. One of a few recent books that embody the best part of what I consider "classic science fiction" (whatever that might mean :-). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11830394-2312 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11830394-2312

dalke 11y ago

You're right. Somewhere in my edits I dropped out the important term "Neolithic". ... Though perhaps 'Stone Age' would be more appropriate given the long time that humans were an apex species.

JulianMorrison 11y ago
It's probably a bit messy, because we started deforestation in the mesolithic I think, and we had an uneasy standoff with megafaunal predators well into the iron age. From Wikipedia: With the advent of agriculture, larger areas began to be deforested, and fire became the prime tool to clear land for crops. In Europe there is little solid evidence before 7000 BC. Mesolithic foragers used fire to create openings for red deer and wild boar. In Great Britain, shade-tolerant species such as oak and ash are replaced in the pollen record by hazels, brambles, grasses and nettles. Removal of the forests led to decreased transpiration, resulting in the formation of upland peat bogs. Widespread decrease in elm pollen across Europe between 8400–8300 BC and 7200–7000 BC, starting in southern Europe and gradually moving north to Great Britain, may represent land clearing by fire at the onset of Neolithic agriculture.
- dalke 11y ago
  Good quote. Yes, another aspect of this is which wild do we want to have? Which is why Pleistocene rewilding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_rewilding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_rewilding ) is a thing. From that page: > Opponents argue that there has been more than enough time for communities to evolve in the absence of mega-fauna, and thus the reintroduction of large mammals could thwart ecosystem dynamics and possibly cause collapse. Life is messy.

e12e 11y ago

This discussion and the term "rewilding" reminds me of Kim Stanley Robinson's excellent Nebula Award winning novel "2312" - and the "reanimation" project which is part of the complex web of plot lines. One of a few recent books that embody the best part of what I consider "classic science fiction" (whatever that might mean :-). https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11830394-2312 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11830394-2312