7 ms·

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) w

by V-2 11y ago

Some of this criticism was outdated already, or has gone out of date since. WebForms (with their underlying concept of abstracting away how web really works) were already in decline two years ago, replaced by MVC. As a former C# developer, turned Android developer, of course I have to admit there is some walled garden mentality among .NET devs, but I think they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Also it's nothing in compare to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality, often directed at developers themselves. Or bizarre anti .NET-bias, case in point: http://blog.expensify.com/2011/03/25/ceo-friday-why-we-dont-hire-net-programmers/ http://blog.expensify.com/2011/03/25/ceo-friday-why-we-dont-... (I'm sure Jon Skeet was devastated). And what's changed since 2013? Quite a lot: Roslyn... open-sourcing .NET...

aggieben 11y ago
> they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Yes, exactly right. > to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality Right on - this isn't what OP was demonstrating, I think, but general reactions to Microsoft technologies are pretty bizarre. Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate.
- V-2 11y ago
  To be clear, I certainly wouldn't put OP in hater category, I disagree with some of his statements but his article is balanced and substantive. Unfortunately this is not the standard
- digler999 11y ago
  The hate comes from the iron-fist mentality MS has and had toward its users, and their lack of reliability and lack of responsibility for their part in delivering an unreliable product. Why don't you "get" that ?
  - aggieben 11y ago
    Because I don't agree? What I don't "get" is why people like you assume that your opinion is completely undebateable, or that it's any more than what it is: an opinion.
  - untog 11y ago
    their lack of reliability and lack of responsibility for their part in delivering an unreliable product What part of .NET is unreliable?
- melling 11y ago
  At one point, not so not so very long ago, Microsoft had 96% desktop market share. I believe that has dropped to 89%, which is still a monopoly. The Internet made that less important but there was a time when Internet Explorer was all developers cared about. If you mentioned Mozilla, they just laughed. Fortunately, Google released Chrome and after several years developers fell in love with it. Unfortunately, IE still has half the browser market because it ships default on that 89% desktop monopoly. But we have made great progress. Microsoft has open sourced .Net but it doesn't really work well on other platforms. Performance lags, for example. F#, what I'd love to use, isn't production ready on Mac or Linux. Anyway, Microsoft has always been relevant and dangerous. Now that they are starting to release cool products they could definitely be a problem. Apple self-regulates because their products are expensive. Microsoft on the other hand, was never afraid of taking it all.
  - organsnyder 11y ago
    You're severely downplaying the importance of Firefox. It had a 30% market share before Chrome even existed.
    - melling 11y ago
      It was ignored by many developers, especially in the corporate world. Pages did not render well
      - organsnyder 11y ago
        That is true. However, by the time Chrome rolled along, most sites rendered fine in Firefox, and Safari had also been around for quite some time already. Chrome certainly helped to accelerate the pace of standards-compliant site design, but the trend was already underway before it existed.
        melling 11y ago
        Yes, Apple had 4% market share. Anyway, read what I wrote the first time. I nailed it. The fact that you were so far off on your estimate really makes me think you are misremembering.
- parasubvert 11y ago
  "Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate." At this point, MS hate is rather pointless, but the closest analogue is today's Apple hate (and to a lesser extent, Oracle/Java hate, and today's small but growing Amazon cloud hate). Microsoft was the king of the hill in the 90's through early 2000's, squashed small companies everywhere when they released competing products, threatening to sue IT shops (by NDA, no less!) that used Linux for questionable patent infringement, and the economics of the software biz led to many fine platforms (OS/2, Mac System 7+) getting second-class citizen status. Today, the equivalent is Apple squashing certain web standards by ignoring them, Amazon squashing competition by building a competing version on AWS, large employers only wanting Java or .NET experience, while Oracle successfully sues Google over Java copyrights, etc. These are all manifestations of the authoritarian tech paradigms and the herd mentality which enables them, both of which many people really dislike. It unfortunately devolves into identity politics quickly ("I can't believe you use that platform" / "I can't believe you program in that language") instead of objectively looking at the good/bad sides of the dominant player. On the other hand, riding the bandwagon side can reap many benefits. These days with mobile and cloud dominance it seems there is enough of a customer base for a few solid ecosystems rather than a single one.
digler999 11y ago
> often directed at developers themselves Who else should it be directed at ? the janitor ? If you have a problem with something, direct it toward its creator.
- V-2 11y ago
  I mean people who code in .NET to make a living, contrary to the stereotype purported by haters most of them are not brainwashed Microsoft fanboys
- RussianCow 11y ago
  I think the OP meant it's (irrationally) directed at the developers who use .NET, not the developers of .NET.
vinceguidry 11y ago
> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. To be fair, Rails is amazing, the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand. The .NET dev sitting across from me doesn't even use legit source control. He has his own hacked-together solution for his own projects, but most of what he does, he claims source control just doesn't work. I think the main problem is that .NET tries to be all things to all devs, and so ends up solving no problems really well. People really seem to go gaga over C#, and to be sure the language isn't terrible like C/C++/Java, but it's pretty damn far from being spectacular. Ruby isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread either, but one can be enormously productive with it.
- UK-AL 11y ago
  I'm fairly sure you get beginner rails developers like that as well. We use GIT, BDD, TDD NServiceBus. Distributed load balanced services, that you can deploy independently. Micro services would be the buzzword for it. CQRS, ServiceStack, MVC, CI, Peer Code reviews We've never had any downtime, our code is clean, we support tons of users and don't really need lots of servers to support it. Not everybody is the same.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    Well, not really, it would be more difficult to work without git and Github in Rails than it would be to work with it. Every tutorial starts you out with it. The big struggle these days is over TDD.
- matwood 11y ago
  > The .NET dev sitting across from me doesn't even use legit source control. So only .NET devs are bad? Got it.
- edgyswingset 11y ago
  I wouldn't let that personal experience bias your view. StackOverflow (often pointed to by .NET devs) is a prime example of engineers utilizing and pushing the limits of any tool you give them. I've also personally met and spoken with numerous .NET devs who are really good at what they do.
masklinn 11y ago
> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Well it doesn't help that there's no such thing as a "ruby technology stack" let alone one under a single all-encompassing directorship. Even Rails isn't a single stack, it's just one piece of the system with plenty of bits around which don't fall under rails (OS, application server, datastore, caches, client-side anything without considering the development tools themselves), and rails is only one of the tools for its levels (not to mention the current rails is the result of community mergers).

by V-2 11y ago

aggieben 11y ago

> they get stigmatized for that way more than average. If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Yes, exactly right. > to vitriolic anti-M$ hater mentality Right on - this isn't what OP was demonstrating, I think, but general reactions to Microsoft technologies are pretty bizarre. Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate.

V-2 11y ago
To be clear, I certainly wouldn't put OP in hater category, I disagree with some of his statements but his article is balanced and substantive. Unfortunately this is not the standard
digler999 11y ago
The hate comes from the iron-fist mentality MS has and had toward its users, and their lack of reliability and lack of responsibility for their part in delivering an unreliable product. Why don't you "get" that ?
- aggieben 11y ago
  Because I don't agree? What I don't "get" is why people like you assume that your opinion is completely undebateable, or that it's any more than what it is: an opinion.
- untog 11y ago
  their lack of reliability and lack of responsibility for their part in delivering an unreliable product What part of .NET is unreliable?
melling 11y ago
At one point, not so not so very long ago, Microsoft had 96% desktop market share. I believe that has dropped to 89%, which is still a monopoly. The Internet made that less important but there was a time when Internet Explorer was all developers cared about. If you mentioned Mozilla, they just laughed. Fortunately, Google released Chrome and after several years developers fell in love with it. Unfortunately, IE still has half the browser market because it ships default on that 89% desktop monopoly. But we have made great progress. Microsoft has open sourced .Net but it doesn't really work well on other platforms. Performance lags, for example. F#, what I'd love to use, isn't production ready on Mac or Linux. Anyway, Microsoft has always been relevant and dangerous. Now that they are starting to release cool products they could definitely be a problem. Apple self-regulates because their products are expensive. Microsoft on the other hand, was never afraid of taking it all.
- organsnyder 11y ago
  You're severely downplaying the importance of Firefox. It had a 30% market share before Chrome even existed.
  - melling 11y ago
    It was ignored by many developers, especially in the corporate world. Pages did not render well
    - organsnyder 11y ago
      That is true. However, by the time Chrome rolled along, most sites rendered fine in Firefox, and Safari had also been around for quite some time already. Chrome certainly helped to accelerate the pace of standards-compliant site design, but the trend was already underway before it existed.
      - melling 11y ago
        Yes, Apple had 4% market share. Anyway, read what I wrote the first time. I nailed it. The fact that you were so far off on your estimate really makes me think you are misremembering.
parasubvert 11y ago
"Use it or don't, but I don't get all the hate." At this point, MS hate is rather pointless, but the closest analogue is today's Apple hate (and to a lesser extent, Oracle/Java hate, and today's small but growing Amazon cloud hate). Microsoft was the king of the hill in the 90's through early 2000's, squashed small companies everywhere when they released competing products, threatening to sue IT shops (by NDA, no less!) that used Linux for questionable patent infringement, and the economics of the software biz led to many fine platforms (OS/2, Mac System 7+) getting second-class citizen status. Today, the equivalent is Apple squashing certain web standards by ignoring them, Amazon squashing competition by building a competing version on AWS, large employers only wanting Java or .NET experience, while Oracle successfully sues Google over Java copyrights, etc. These are all manifestations of the authoritarian tech paradigms and the herd mentality which enables them, both of which many people really dislike. It unfortunately devolves into identity politics quickly ("I can't believe you use that platform" / "I can't believe you program in that language") instead of objectively looking at the good/bad sides of the dominant player. On the other hand, riding the bandwagon side can reap many benefits. These days with mobile and cloud dominance it seems there is enough of a customer base for a few solid ecosystems rather than a single one.

digler999 11y ago

> often directed at developers themselves Who else should it be directed at ? the janitor ? If you have a problem with something, direct it toward its creator.

V-2 11y ago
I mean people who code in .NET to make a living, contrary to the stereotype purported by haters most of them are not brainwashed Microsoft fanboys
RussianCow 11y ago
I think the OP meant it's (irrationally) directed at the developers who use .NET, not the developers of .NET.

vinceguidry 11y ago

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. To be fair, Rails is amazing, the most cutting-edge web framework out there, and it's settling into adulthood nicely. The Ruby ecosystem is so perfectly suited to web development that one hardly needs to go elsewhere to get what one needs. Whatever you could need is right at hand. The .NET dev sitting across from me doesn't even use legit source control. He has his own hacked-together solution for his own projects, but most of what he does, he claims source control just doesn't work. I think the main problem is that .NET tries to be all things to all devs, and so ends up solving no problems really well. People really seem to go gaga over C#, and to be sure the language isn't terrible like C/C++/Java, but it's pretty damn far from being spectacular. Ruby isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread either, but one can be enormously productive with it.

UK-AL 11y ago
I'm fairly sure you get beginner rails developers like that as well. We use GIT, BDD, TDD NServiceBus. Distributed load balanced services, that you can deploy independently. Micro services would be the buzzword for it. CQRS, ServiceStack, MVC, CI, Peer Code reviews We've never had any downtime, our code is clean, we support tons of users and don't really need lots of servers to support it. Not everybody is the same.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  Well, not really, it would be more difficult to work without git and Github in Rails than it would be to work with it. Every tutorial starts you out with it. The big struggle these days is over TDD.
matwood 11y ago
> The .NET dev sitting across from me doesn't even use legit source control. So only .NET devs are bad? Got it.
edgyswingset 11y ago
I wouldn't let that personal experience bias your view. StackOverflow (often pointed to by .NET devs) is a prime example of engineers utilizing and pushing the limits of any tool you give them. I've also personally met and spoken with numerous .NET devs who are really good at what they do.

masklinn 11y ago

> If a Rubyist never sticks nose outside their beloved technology stack, noone makes such a big deal out of it. Well it doesn't help that there's no such thing as a "ruby technology stack" let alone one under a single all-encompassing directorship. Even Rails isn't a single stack, it's just one piece of the system with plenty of bits around which don't fall under rails (OS, application server, datastore, caches, client-side anything without considering the development tools themselves), and rails is only one of the tools for its levels (not to mention the current rails is the result of community mergers).