8 ms·

A Culture Against Dropouts, Deviants and Troubled Young Adults

97 points by jimsojim 11y ago

werber 11y ago
I relate so much to this article. Being put into a situation where you have a real connection with other people and real ideas like a boot camp is amazing. There is way too much disconnection in academia. Places where the success of the students determines the fate of the teachers, and vice versa, makes a way more real environment. Anywhere equal investment despite histories as the basis of the Thing at hand is going to make people better off. I'm rambling
- a-saleh 11y ago
  > There is way too much disconnection in academia. It depends. Sometimes there is, when you sit among 500 mostly disinterested peers in a lecture hall and lecturer is taunting you that he is there to make half of you fail. And sometimes you stay in the lab late into the night because you know, that your advisor needs these results to extend his grant money. And all your lab-mates are like "But you are just a master's student, you shouldn't care about this publish-grant-cycle BS untill second year of your PHD!" and you can have many in-betweens.
xrjn 11y ago
I feel that I'm in a fairly related situation myself. A week ago I packed my backpack, and flew out to London to start a startup. Since my parents are not really supportive of me as I'm not "studying or working" in their opinion - I'm mostly on my own. I've had some tough times recently, especially in the past week. But every time, I just look ahead and see what I can make, what I can build, what I want to achieve. It is _very_ difficult to get anything done if you don't have a clear vision of your future. It's _very_ important to avoid discouraging teenagers and young adults from going on their own path.
- hugh4 11y ago
  >It's _very_ important to avoid discouraging teenagers and young adults from going on their own path. Alternative idea: it's important to discourage teenagers and young adults from going their own path, to make sure that only those who are really prepared and committed will actually do it. Like the old Jewish tradition of telling anyone who wanted to convert "no, go away" three times before eventually letting them start the process.
  - duggan 11y ago
    The problem is that this is just rephrasing "survival of the fittest," a concept misappropriated from evolutionary theory into societal planning numerous times by despots, and which - to my mind - has no place in a society mindful of its incomplete information about what constitutes "fittest."
    - saint_fiasco 11y ago
      It's not like "unfit" people are being left to die. They are just encouraged to live normal real lives instead of young-adult-novel lives.
li-ch 11y ago
A first world problem.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6uLL418S1GQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6uLL418S1GQ
papapra 11y ago
I'm in a similar situation, now at university, no idea for what I'm waking up in the morning, living the zombie life. Only I don't come from upper class, nor I'm very talented. So the reality for people like me is somewhat different.
- tomjen3 11y ago
  Lol, if that is upper class then I am upper class too. Didn't have much money growing up, so I am kinda surprised.
gozo 11y ago
I'm always split when reading stories like this. On the one hand, I really feel for the person and appreciate her sharing. Problems like these rarely consider the practicality of the situation and shouldn't be taken lightly. On the other, I know there are kids out there who never got to go to a good school, always had problems at home and never got to feel the joy of learning. They can't write this kind of story and even if they did no one would read it. They can't travel somewhere, don't have anything to be cut off from nor will ever meet someone who saves them. They can't stop doing things that hurt them and if they become depressed they might very well end up being homeless. Or the high-performing poor kids who might have to work or in other ways face academic death from a thousand papercuts. Many times because families with better resources uses all their power to make overexertion a desirable thing so other kids can't compete. Or just the normal kids who already knew from the beginning what was important and the limits to being productive. Maybe they went to a good state school and now regardless of merit have to live with being last in line after people from private schools time and time again. I guess my point is that when we contemplate a fix to these problems I hope we also don't overlook the people in different situations with similar problems.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  Whilst it's true that we shouldn't overlook the experience of others, I believe if we try to look at the issues all at once we'll not get anywhere (analysis paralysis) or will generalise too much and miss the finer details. You touched on one of the key points for me when you said "never got to feel the joy of learning". Perhaps that's the key problem in this case too, as the author didn't seem to have discovered the joy of learning, but discovered the joy of achieving, and the price you pay when you don't have other joys to balance you out. I can't wait for a time when we lose our obsession with work ethic. Not that working at something you want is automatically bad, far from it, but it's not the only way to enjoy life. One day I hope we can see that being a slacker can be a noble profession.
  - roghummal 11y ago
    >Not that working at something you want is automatically bad, far from it, but it's not the only way to enjoy life. One day I hope we can see that being a slacker can be a noble profession. I have some documentation you should read: http://www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet.html http://www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet.html
jensen123 11y ago
In Japan they have this phenomenom called hikikomori - young people shutting themselves off from the world, kinda like the person in the article did for a while, until his parents threatened to cut him off. I'm wondering why we don't have much of this hikikomori phenomenom in the West - is it simply because Western parents don't tolerate it?
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  I would suggest that we do have it in the West. It's not unknown to know people who live at their family home well into their 20s, don't work, don't go out much, spend their time getting stoned, watching TV, surfing the web, and playing computer games. The only major differences between the hikikomori and the equivalent Western stereotype is that food isn't brought to the room, and this leads to some limited social interactions with those around them. I can understand the appeal of being a recluse, and I'd much rather someone became a recluse than topped themselves.
  - cloudier 11y ago
    The equivalent Western stereotype is probably the neckbeard. It's prevalent enough to have shown up in mainstream media, e.g. South Park's Make Love, Not Warcraft.
    - roghummal 11y ago
      What do you call a female neckbeard, then?
      - JD557 11y ago
        I believe that the most common term is legbeard[1], although its usage is quite rare. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=legbeard http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=legbeard
      - invisible_dust 11y ago
        a feminist
forthefuture 11y ago
So I'm a similar situation except I'm hopelessly introverted. The idea of a bootcamp seems good to my parents, but to me it's just another word for school. At this point it would be easier to get a computer science degree than to do a bootcamp because doing work in groups is the first thing I check for on a syllabus before I drop a class. It sure looks good though, pay $15,000 for a 97% chance at getting a job. I just don't want to pay someone to teach me something I already know just to get a job. That's why I dropped out of college.
- cwyers 11y ago
  It's not like "group work" doesn't exist once you get to the working world.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - fivealarm 11y ago
    The group work required of students isn't even remotely representative of the type of collaborating that is required in the workplace. It's just a bullshit excuse to tick a box they know appeals to potential employers.
    - cwyers 11y ago
      I think it probably resembles the workplace about as much as anything about being a student resembles the workplace, which is to say, not much at all. But the original post was about not wanting to do a coding boot camp because of the personal interaction. And how he doesn't want to pay someone to teach him "something he already knows" to get a job. But a job is about a lot more than just technical proficiency, and it sounds like something is being... if not taught, at least tested for in these contexts that is also needed to succeed at working life for most people.
- jokoon 11y ago
  I really believe the person in the article is just strongly introverted, and that's it. School puts a lot of pressure into socializing students, without caring about individual sensitivities. I personally hate working with other people, and there are actually plenty of people who do. Learning is a tedious task, so I'll never understand why school must be social. There is always the same situation that occurs to me. Some guy just start talking to me while I'm doing something. I'm obviously uninterested in talking with the guy, and for some reason I'm the sociopathic weirdo. Interacting has become a standard, and those who fails to do so are quickly put away or seen at failing in society. I really believe that society can't tolerate outcasts. Society really feels like an army of acolytes who only hold social norms. Maybe it's the remnants of instituting civilization through religion, maybe that's why people can't behave without having a set of beliefs who don't have any ideas behind them.
mwhuang2 11y ago
My peers in high school were overachievers who seemed to have everything figured out. I had no idea what I was doing and often had close to failing grades, despite scoring high on standardized tests (2390 SAT + 800 SAT II Math). I got rejected from almost every college I applied to and ended up dropping out after a year when I actually did go. I worked two jobs and took community college classes for a year before returning to university. I'm definitely more focused and mature now. I think people shouldn't feel the need to conform to the "normal" path of going off to college right away. There's really no single correct way to go through life. I needed time to figure things out for myself instead of adhering to a system I wasn't comfortable in.
- 55555 11y ago
  You had a 2390 on your SATs and were rejected from colleges?
  - mwhuang2 11y ago
    I applied mostly to Ivies and similarly competitive colleges. They get plenty of applicants with near-perfect test scores and GPAs, so my poor grades made me a subpar candidate.
    - Moto7451 11y ago
      This happened with people in the highly gifted magnet at my High School. It didn't matter that they were taking nothing but AP classes by teachers hell bent on being extremely difficult. They saw consistent C and B grades and a 1600/2400 (I went to High School during the transition from 2 part to 3 part SAT). Some didn't get accepted anywhere due to the fact they only applied two a few Ivy League schools.
  - theVirginian 11y ago
    It can look bad to have high test scores and poor grades because it implies you were a lazy student. It's not a sentiment that I agree with but our guidance counselors basically put it to us that way.
- 11y ago
dopeboy 11y ago
It takes a lot of courage to write something like this. Lindsay, if you're reading this, I tip my hat off to you for sitting down and delving deep into some of these challenges. Only when we make ourselves truly vulnerable do we grow and I hope both the actual act of writing this piece and the subsequent commentary you get makes you a better human being. As a "traditionally educated" person who went to a public school and an ivy, university is very much optimized for people who can be programmed easily. And I don't mean that in a nefarious / brainwashy type of way. School is a game with rules and objectives. Follow the rules, modestly achieve the objectives, and you're validated with a degree. This validation is sanctioned by society and in some places (law, medicine), mandated by law. Go off path? Deviate and carve your own path? Refuse to go on a path? You're off reservation and labelled a "dropout." You're not in the box everyone is used to conceptualizing you in. They don't understand you which leads to one of two reactions: 1) they fear you or 2) they dismiss you as a non-threat.
- Futurebot 11y ago
  I'd add to that list "couldn't go on the path in the first place", too, as there are plenty of people who fall into that bucket. I wish there were more public acknowledgement of the sentiments in your last paragraph. Refreshing comment.

97 points by jimsojim 11y ago

I relate so much to this article. Being put into a situation where you have a real connection with other people and real ideas like a boot camp is amazing. There is way too much disconnection in academia. Places where the success of the students determines the fate of the teachers, and vice versa, makes a way more real environment. Anywhere equal investment despite histories as the basis of the Thing at hand is going to make people better off. I'm rambling

a-saleh 11y ago
> There is way too much disconnection in academia. It depends. Sometimes there is, when you sit among 500 mostly disinterested peers in a lecture hall and lecturer is taunting you that he is there to make half of you fail. And sometimes you stay in the lab late into the night because you know, that your advisor needs these results to extend his grant money. And all your lab-mates are like "But you are just a master's student, you shouldn't care about this publish-grant-cycle BS untill second year of your PHD!" and you can have many in-betweens.

xrjn 11y ago

I feel that I'm in a fairly related situation myself. A week ago I packed my backpack, and flew out to London to start a startup. Since my parents are not really supportive of me as I'm not "studying or working" in their opinion - I'm mostly on my own. I've had some tough times recently, especially in the past week. But every time, I just look ahead and see what I can make, what I can build, what I want to achieve. It is _very_ difficult to get anything done if you don't have a clear vision of your future. It's _very_ important to avoid discouraging teenagers and young adults from going on their own path.

hugh4 11y ago
>It's _very_ important to avoid discouraging teenagers and young adults from going on their own path. Alternative idea: it's important to discourage teenagers and young adults from going their own path, to make sure that only those who are really prepared and committed will actually do it. Like the old Jewish tradition of telling anyone who wanted to convert "no, go away" three times before eventually letting them start the process.
- duggan 11y ago
  The problem is that this is just rephrasing "survival of the fittest," a concept misappropriated from evolutionary theory into societal planning numerous times by despots, and which - to my mind - has no place in a society mindful of its incomplete information about what constitutes "fittest."
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    It's not like "unfit" people are being left to die. They are just encouraged to live normal real lives instead of young-adult-novel lives.

li-ch 11y ago

A first world problem.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6uLL418S1GQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6uLL418S1GQ

papapra 11y ago

I'm in a similar situation, now at university, no idea for what I'm waking up in the morning, living the zombie life. Only I don't come from upper class, nor I'm very talented. So the reality for people like me is somewhat different.

tomjen3 11y ago
Lol, if that is upper class then I am upper class too. Didn't have much money growing up, so I am kinda surprised.

gozo 11y ago

I'm always split when reading stories like this. On the one hand, I really feel for the person and appreciate her sharing. Problems like these rarely consider the practicality of the situation and shouldn't be taken lightly. On the other, I know there are kids out there who never got to go to a good school, always had problems at home and never got to feel the joy of learning. They can't write this kind of story and even if they did no one would read it. They can't travel somewhere, don't have anything to be cut off from nor will ever meet someone who saves them. They can't stop doing things that hurt them and if they become depressed they might very well end up being homeless. Or the high-performing poor kids who might have to work or in other ways face academic death from a thousand papercuts. Many times because families with better resources uses all their power to make overexertion a desirable thing so other kids can't compete. Or just the normal kids who already knew from the beginning what was important and the limits to being productive. Maybe they went to a good state school and now regardless of merit have to live with being last in line after people from private schools time and time again. I guess my point is that when we contemplate a fix to these problems I hope we also don't overlook the people in different situations with similar problems.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
Whilst it's true that we shouldn't overlook the experience of others, I believe if we try to look at the issues all at once we'll not get anywhere (analysis paralysis) or will generalise too much and miss the finer details. You touched on one of the key points for me when you said "never got to feel the joy of learning". Perhaps that's the key problem in this case too, as the author didn't seem to have discovered the joy of learning, but discovered the joy of achieving, and the price you pay when you don't have other joys to balance you out. I can't wait for a time when we lose our obsession with work ethic. Not that working at something you want is automatically bad, far from it, but it's not the only way to enjoy life. One day I hope we can see that being a slacker can be a noble profession.
- roghummal 11y ago
  >Not that working at something you want is automatically bad, far from it, but it's not the only way to enjoy life. One day I hope we can see that being a slacker can be a noble profession. I have some documentation you should read: http://www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet.html http://www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet.html

jensen123 11y ago

In Japan they have this phenomenom called hikikomori - young people shutting themselves off from the world, kinda like the person in the article did for a while, until his parents threatened to cut him off. I'm wondering why we don't have much of this hikikomori phenomenom in the West - is it simply because Western parents don't tolerate it?

ZenoArrow 11y ago
I would suggest that we do have it in the West. It's not unknown to know people who live at their family home well into their 20s, don't work, don't go out much, spend their time getting stoned, watching TV, surfing the web, and playing computer games. The only major differences between the hikikomori and the equivalent Western stereotype is that food isn't brought to the room, and this leads to some limited social interactions with those around them. I can understand the appeal of being a recluse, and I'd much rather someone became a recluse than topped themselves.
- cloudier 11y ago
  The equivalent Western stereotype is probably the neckbeard. It's prevalent enough to have shown up in mainstream media, e.g. South Park's Make Love, Not Warcraft.
  - roghummal 11y ago
    What do you call a female neckbeard, then?
    - JD557 11y ago
      I believe that the most common term is legbeard[1], although its usage is quite rare. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=legbeard http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=legbeard
    - invisible_dust 11y ago
      a feminist

forthefuture 11y ago

So I'm a similar situation except I'm hopelessly introverted. The idea of a bootcamp seems good to my parents, but to me it's just another word for school. At this point it would be easier to get a computer science degree than to do a bootcamp because doing work in groups is the first thing I check for on a syllabus before I drop a class. It sure looks good though, pay $15,000 for a 97% chance at getting a job. I just don't want to pay someone to teach me something I already know just to get a job. That's why I dropped out of college.

cwyers 11y ago
It's not like "group work" doesn't exist once you get to the working world.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- fivealarm 11y ago
  The group work required of students isn't even remotely representative of the type of collaborating that is required in the workplace. It's just a bullshit excuse to tick a box they know appeals to potential employers.
  - cwyers 11y ago
    I think it probably resembles the workplace about as much as anything about being a student resembles the workplace, which is to say, not much at all. But the original post was about not wanting to do a coding boot camp because of the personal interaction. And how he doesn't want to pay someone to teach him "something he already knows" to get a job. But a job is about a lot more than just technical proficiency, and it sounds like something is being... if not taught, at least tested for in these contexts that is also needed to succeed at working life for most people.
jokoon 11y ago
I really believe the person in the article is just strongly introverted, and that's it. School puts a lot of pressure into socializing students, without caring about individual sensitivities. I personally hate working with other people, and there are actually plenty of people who do. Learning is a tedious task, so I'll never understand why school must be social. There is always the same situation that occurs to me. Some guy just start talking to me while I'm doing something. I'm obviously uninterested in talking with the guy, and for some reason I'm the sociopathic weirdo. Interacting has become a standard, and those who fails to do so are quickly put away or seen at failing in society. I really believe that society can't tolerate outcasts. Society really feels like an army of acolytes who only hold social norms. Maybe it's the remnants of instituting civilization through religion, maybe that's why people can't behave without having a set of beliefs who don't have any ideas behind them.

mwhuang2 11y ago

My peers in high school were overachievers who seemed to have everything figured out. I had no idea what I was doing and often had close to failing grades, despite scoring high on standardized tests (2390 SAT + 800 SAT II Math). I got rejected from almost every college I applied to and ended up dropping out after a year when I actually did go. I worked two jobs and took community college classes for a year before returning to university. I'm definitely more focused and mature now. I think people shouldn't feel the need to conform to the "normal" path of going off to college right away. There's really no single correct way to go through life. I needed time to figure things out for myself instead of adhering to a system I wasn't comfortable in.

55555 11y ago
You had a 2390 on your SATs and were rejected from colleges?
- mwhuang2 11y ago
  I applied mostly to Ivies and similarly competitive colleges. They get plenty of applicants with near-perfect test scores and GPAs, so my poor grades made me a subpar candidate.
  - Moto7451 11y ago
    This happened with people in the highly gifted magnet at my High School. It didn't matter that they were taking nothing but AP classes by teachers hell bent on being extremely difficult. They saw consistent C and B grades and a 1600/2400 (I went to High School during the transition from 2 part to 3 part SAT). Some didn't get accepted anywhere due to the fact they only applied two a few Ivy League schools.
- theVirginian 11y ago
  It can look bad to have high test scores and poor grades because it implies you were a lazy student. It's not a sentiment that I agree with but our guidance counselors basically put it to us that way.
11y ago

dopeboy 11y ago

It takes a lot of courage to write something like this. Lindsay, if you're reading this, I tip my hat off to you for sitting down and delving deep into some of these challenges. Only when we make ourselves truly vulnerable do we grow and I hope both the actual act of writing this piece and the subsequent commentary you get makes you a better human being. As a "traditionally educated" person who went to a public school and an ivy, university is very much optimized for people who can be programmed easily. And I don't mean that in a nefarious / brainwashy type of way. School is a game with rules and objectives. Follow the rules, modestly achieve the objectives, and you're validated with a degree. This validation is sanctioned by society and in some places (law, medicine), mandated by law. Go off path? Deviate and carve your own path? Refuse to go on a path? You're off reservation and labelled a "dropout." You're not in the box everyone is used to conceptualizing you in. They don't understand you which leads to one of two reactions: 1) they fear you or 2) they dismiss you as a non-threat.

Futurebot 11y ago
I'd add to that list "couldn't go on the path in the first place", too, as there are plenty of people who fall into that bucket. I wish there were more public acknowledgement of the sentiments in your last paragraph. Refreshing comment.