5 ms·

There's actually a pretty long tradition of agricultural cartels throughout Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Dairy_Commission https://en.wikipedi

by mcrae 11y ago

There's actually a pretty long tradition of agricultural cartels throughout Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Dairy_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Dairy_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Wheat_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Wheat_Board

aianus 11y ago
> Factors considered when setting the price include ..., and how much money the Commission thinks farmers should make.[3] The Canadian Dairy Commission is composed mostly of dairy farmers. Disgusting. Edit: doubly so when you consider dairy is an extremely basic good so they're illicitly profiting off of the poorest in society.
- dghughes 11y ago
  Well when you have a behemoth dairy market next door of 325 million versus 35 million ya gotta do some weird stuff. The TPP will add another ~500 million to that 325 million people so ~800 million versus 35 million people of which 12,000 are family farm dairies.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > Well when you have a behemoth dairy market next door of 325 million versus 35 million ya gotta do some weird stuff. If the intent is to protect domestic producers from international competition, wouldn't a sufficiently high import tariff on dairy be a better solution?
    - refurb 11y ago
      The intent of the boards is not to protect against international compeition, but rather to create a floor price for agricultural goods.
      - aianus 11y ago
        > The intent of the boards is not to protect against international compeition The parent to my comment implied otherwise by bringing up the U.S. dairy market. > but rather to create a floor price for agricultural goods Why would we want that? Poor people need cheap food (well, we all could use cheap food). We don't have a national policy of 'floor prices' on other (non-vice) goods and services, do we?
        refurb 11y ago
        I'm actually on your side, i think it's ridiculous as well. The logic is that a free market with lean and fat years would result in wild price fluxuations. When yields were really good, prices would drop and some farmers would end up out of business. The cartel brings stability to prices. Each farmer agrees to produce X and in return has confidence they will get Y price. The system undoubtably results in higher prices than a completely free market.
        aianus 11y ago
        > The cartel brings stability to prices. Each farmer agrees to produce X and in return has confidence they will get Y price. We have futures contracts that serve this role for other commodities, not cartels.
        jamiek88 11y ago
        Yes, and look at the wild swings there. Oil price being one particularly topical. Over investment in marginal fields that are economical at an artificially inflated ~$100/boe due to speculation. This is particularly evident in the US in hiring booms and busts in the industry and the direct influence at the price at the pump (it is cushioned more in other countries by taxation for example in the UK tax is circa 80% of the pump price for fuel, whereas in the US it is circa 17%). This wild variability in food prices would be very very bad for not only farmers but the public. Sure, in gluts, $0.50 milk per gallon would be great, but in times of say severe drought, $8/gallon would be devastating to those people for whom food is a large part of their budgets, or most people. That's the idea behind it anyway. The same is done world wide and cannot be unwound in isolation. The US and EU both have farm subsidies or price smoothing. I'm sure the system is gamed, like all systems are - but a completely unfettered free market, globally, for staple foods is unlikely to ever happen.
- guyzero 11y ago
  Dairy farmers are hardly a bunch of rich fat cats oppressing the poor.
  - aianus 11y ago
    > Dairy farmers are hardly a bunch of rich fat cats oppressing the poor. I don't think it really makes a difference if the wrongdoers are Nestle or a 'federation of independent dairy farmers'. They're clearly earning part of their (middle class or better) income scamming poor people.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- chris_wot 11y ago
  Actually, the State government of New South Wales in Australia used to have a Dairy Board that set prices for milk production. It was quite good, milk prices were kept quite reasonable and it stopped excessive production but allowed for it. It was stopped by the Carr giverment in the mid 1990s. Now there are concerns that dairy farmers are being completely screwed by big dairy companies. It hasn't been a good thing! The Carr government is also the government who brought in public-private partnerships and closed the quarantine service in Paramatta.
dghughes 11y ago
And also the bizarre 1886 to 1948 margarine ban and margarine with yellow dye wasn't legal until 1995 (FYI all butter is also tinted yellow).
- mirimir 11y ago
  And oranges are dyed orange. (They're really green.)
  - nkurz 11y ago
    While this may be true enough to destroy ones faith in the FDA, it's mostly false at least in the US. Here's the US FDA's official policy: http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074540.htm http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyG... Summarizing, if dyed oranges are sold, there must be a label declaring this at the point of sale. In practice, only early season Florida oranges are dyed. California has stricter rules, and does not allow it at all: http://littlelocavores.blogspot.com/2011/02/when-orange-isnt-orange-food-dyes-in.html http://littlelocavores.blogspot.com/2011/02/when-orange-isnt...
- nkurz 11y ago
  (FYI all butter is also tinted yellow) This is trivially false, in that even in the US there are many brands that do not color their butter[1], but I'd be interested in knowing the truth. Is there an FDA rule that allows coloring to be added to butter without adding it to the ingredient list? I found a rule saying that FD&C Yellow No. 5 must explicitly be listed[2], and I did not see any exceptions for carotene. [1] http://organicvalley.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/59/~/butter---do-we-add-color%3F http://organicvalley.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/59... [2] http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074644.htm http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyG...

by mcrae 11y ago

aianus 11y ago

> Factors considered when setting the price include ..., and how much money the Commission thinks farmers should make.[3] The Canadian Dairy Commission is composed mostly of dairy farmers. Disgusting. Edit: doubly so when you consider dairy is an extremely basic good so they're illicitly profiting off of the poorest in society.

dghughes 11y ago
Well when you have a behemoth dairy market next door of 325 million versus 35 million ya gotta do some weird stuff. The TPP will add another ~500 million to that 325 million people so ~800 million versus 35 million people of which 12,000 are family farm dairies.
- aianus 11y ago
  > Well when you have a behemoth dairy market next door of 325 million versus 35 million ya gotta do some weird stuff. If the intent is to protect domestic producers from international competition, wouldn't a sufficiently high import tariff on dairy be a better solution?
  - refurb 11y ago
    The intent of the boards is not to protect against international compeition, but rather to create a floor price for agricultural goods.
    - aianus 11y ago
      > The intent of the boards is not to protect against international compeition The parent to my comment implied otherwise by bringing up the U.S. dairy market. > but rather to create a floor price for agricultural goods Why would we want that? Poor people need cheap food (well, we all could use cheap food). We don't have a national policy of 'floor prices' on other (non-vice) goods and services, do we?
      - refurb 11y ago
        I'm actually on your side, i think it's ridiculous as well. The logic is that a free market with lean and fat years would result in wild price fluxuations. When yields were really good, prices would drop and some farmers would end up out of business. The cartel brings stability to prices. Each farmer agrees to produce X and in return has confidence they will get Y price. The system undoubtably results in higher prices than a completely free market.
        aianus 11y ago
        > The cartel brings stability to prices. Each farmer agrees to produce X and in return has confidence they will get Y price. We have futures contracts that serve this role for other commodities, not cartels.
        jamiek88 11y ago
        Yes, and look at the wild swings there. Oil price being one particularly topical. Over investment in marginal fields that are economical at an artificially inflated ~$100/boe due to speculation. This is particularly evident in the US in hiring booms and busts in the industry and the direct influence at the price at the pump (it is cushioned more in other countries by taxation for example in the UK tax is circa 80% of the pump price for fuel, whereas in the US it is circa 17%). This wild variability in food prices would be very very bad for not only farmers but the public. Sure, in gluts, $0.50 milk per gallon would be great, but in times of say severe drought, $8/gallon would be devastating to those people for whom food is a large part of their budgets, or most people. That's the idea behind it anyway. The same is done world wide and cannot be unwound in isolation. The US and EU both have farm subsidies or price smoothing. I'm sure the system is gamed, like all systems are - but a completely unfettered free market, globally, for staple foods is unlikely to ever happen.
guyzero 11y ago
Dairy farmers are hardly a bunch of rich fat cats oppressing the poor.
- aianus 11y ago
  > Dairy farmers are hardly a bunch of rich fat cats oppressing the poor. I don't think it really makes a difference if the wrongdoers are Nestle or a 'federation of independent dairy farmers'. They're clearly earning part of their (middle class or better) income scamming poor people.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
chris_wot 11y ago
Actually, the State government of New South Wales in Australia used to have a Dairy Board that set prices for milk production. It was quite good, milk prices were kept quite reasonable and it stopped excessive production but allowed for it. It was stopped by the Carr giverment in the mid 1990s. Now there are concerns that dairy farmers are being completely screwed by big dairy companies. It hasn't been a good thing! The Carr government is also the government who brought in public-private partnerships and closed the quarantine service in Paramatta.

dghughes 11y ago

And also the bizarre 1886 to 1948 margarine ban and margarine with yellow dye wasn't legal until 1995 (FYI all butter is also tinted yellow).

mirimir 11y ago
And oranges are dyed orange. (They're really green.)
- nkurz 11y ago
  While this may be true enough to destroy ones faith in the FDA, it's mostly false at least in the US. Here's the US FDA's official policy: http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074540.htm http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyG... Summarizing, if dyed oranges are sold, there must be a label declaring this at the point of sale. In practice, only early season Florida oranges are dyed. California has stricter rules, and does not allow it at all: http://littlelocavores.blogspot.com/2011/02/when-orange-isnt-orange-food-dyes-in.html http://littlelocavores.blogspot.com/2011/02/when-orange-isnt...
nkurz 11y ago
(FYI all butter is also tinted yellow) This is trivially false, in that even in the US there are many brands that do not color their butter[1], but I'd be interested in knowing the truth. Is there an FDA rule that allows coloring to be added to butter without adding it to the ingredient list? I found a rule saying that FD&C Yellow No. 5 must explicitly be listed[2], and I did not see any exceptions for carotene. [1] http://organicvalley.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/59/~/butter---do-we-add-color%3F http://organicvalley.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/59... [2] http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074644.htm http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyG...