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We have a Linux distributing organizing programs in a different way: Android. It seems to be working pretty good, actually, with compartmentalization and tight

by motoboi 11y ago

We have a Linux distributing organizing programs in a different way: Android. It seems to be working pretty good, actually, with compartmentalization and tight security.

hiphopyo 11y ago
Doesn't Android borrow a lot of code from NetBSD and OpenBSD?
- duskwuff 11y ago
  Not significantly. Some parts of Bionic (Android's libc equivalent) is based on BSD equivalents, but most of userland is Android-specific.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    > but most of userland is Android-specific. Meaning Java, which makes POSIX irrelevant.
  - rhabarba 11y ago
    Android has a few hundred unmodified OpenBSD files.
    - duskwuff 11y ago
      A few hundred files is very little in a project the size of Android. :)
alphapapa 11y ago
It's funny you should say that. I've been using Android for several years after using iPhones. And I find myself wishing all the time for a phone that simply runs Debian Stable. Tight security? Well, how about Stagefright? Cyanogen no longer supports my phone. Even when they did, it wasn't well-supported: each new release had a high chance of breaking something fundamental. Right now I'm stuck on a "milestone" release that isn't even the newest one (it's over a year old now!), because later ones all have some unacceptable problem, like GPS not working or cell data not working. I can't just install an updated browser component package, because Android is monolithic. On Debian it'd be in a package like libwebkit, and it'd be a simple "apt-get upgrade" away. So I'm stuck with a vulnerable Android version. If I try to upgrade to fix it, I'll lose GPS or cellular data. The only way to get a fix is to buy a new phone. Now Google is trying to push more of the components into its Google Play Service app/framework. So, great: more parts can be upgraded independently of the monolithic core. But that also means that Google can push out updates to more components without my knowledge or consent: not great. That means more instances of feeling something warm in my pocket, pulling out my phone, and finding that Google Play Services has kept my phone awake for 10 hours and my battery is at 12%. This has happened to me on multiple occasions: one day my phone works fine. The next day it eats the battery like candy. I didn't change any settings or install any updates--Google merely decided to push out an automatic update to its APKs without my knowledge or consent, and Google Play Services constantly crashes every 5 seconds, popping up a dialog box that I have to manually dismiss. I can't even do a simple task like send an SMS or check my email, because every 5 seconds it pops up another "Unfortunately..." box. There's no practical way to roll it back, nor even to report the problem. The best I can do is find people reporting the same problem on Reddit and hope that Google gets its act together so I can actually have a usable phone again; maybe one morning I'll wake up and my phone will not be "sick" anymore. In the meantime I have a really dumb "smartphone" that keeps my leg warm. I have had high hopes for Android, but I now consider it to be a mess, and consider Google to be a highly irresponsible steward. I don't want an iPhone, but if someone wants a reliable smartphone without nasty surprises, they are probably better served with one.
- qznc 11y ago
  You can disable automatic updates. You can remove Google Play Services. Similar problems happen with Debian as well. E.g. hibernation breaks or WiFi stops working.
  - alphapapa 11y ago
    I never enable automatic app updates. However, Google Play Services is unaffected by this setting--it updates whenever Google wants it to, without any indication to the device owner. Sure, I could use Android without Google Play Services. That would also mean not being able to use the vast majority of apps in the Play Store--and I don't mean games. That would mean not being able to use, e.g. Google Maps. So to use Google Maps, I should have to give Google free rein to push updates to its software to my phone whenever it wants, including untested updates that cause breakage, crashes, and battery draining causing high temperatures? This is what's wrong with Android. And you can't seriously claim that such drastic breakage happens on a regular basis with Debian Stable.
    - tetheno 11y ago
      You can use AOSP and install the Google Maps apk without Google Play Services. It's a hassle though. I would also like to have more control over what Google does in my Android phone while not losing the ability to install apps easily.
- throwaway7767 11y ago
  I really miss maemo, it was pretty much what you're describing. Being able to rebuild packages directly from the debian archive if I wanted some new software, or patch some system software and put it in my own APT repository, are things I really liked. In addition to the problems you describe with google moving more core functionality into its "Google Apps" packages, it also means that running android without the google bits is getting increasingly hard. It's missing some core functionality that other non-google apps expect.
  - 11y ago
pjmlp 11y ago
Actually thanks to the Android architecture, having Linux as the kernel is pretty irrelevant to most users and developers. Given the thin APIs exposed in the NDK, Google could change it by any UNIX flavored kernel and no one would notice. The OEMs might be a bit pissed off if they had to change the APIs, but that's all.

by motoboi 11y ago

We have a Linux distributing organizing programs in a different way: Android. It seems to be working pretty good, actually, with compartmentalization and tight security.

hiphopyo 11y ago

Doesn't Android borrow a lot of code from NetBSD and OpenBSD?

duskwuff 11y ago
Not significantly. Some parts of Bionic (Android's libc equivalent) is based on BSD equivalents, but most of userland is Android-specific.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  > but most of userland is Android-specific. Meaning Java, which makes POSIX irrelevant.
- rhabarba 11y ago
  Android has a few hundred unmodified OpenBSD files.
  - duskwuff 11y ago
    A few hundred files is very little in a project the size of Android. :)

alphapapa 11y ago

It's funny you should say that. I've been using Android for several years after using iPhones. And I find myself wishing all the time for a phone that simply runs Debian Stable. Tight security? Well, how about Stagefright? Cyanogen no longer supports my phone. Even when they did, it wasn't well-supported: each new release had a high chance of breaking something fundamental. Right now I'm stuck on a "milestone" release that isn't even the newest one (it's over a year old now!), because later ones all have some unacceptable problem, like GPS not working or cell data not working. I can't just install an updated browser component package, because Android is monolithic. On Debian it'd be in a package like libwebkit, and it'd be a simple "apt-get upgrade" away. So I'm stuck with a vulnerable Android version. If I try to upgrade to fix it, I'll lose GPS or cellular data. The only way to get a fix is to buy a new phone. Now Google is trying to push more of the components into its Google Play Service app/framework. So, great: more parts can be upgraded independently of the monolithic core. But that also means that Google can push out updates to more components without my knowledge or consent: not great. That means more instances of feeling something warm in my pocket, pulling out my phone, and finding that Google Play Services has kept my phone awake for 10 hours and my battery is at 12%. This has happened to me on multiple occasions: one day my phone works fine. The next day it eats the battery like candy. I didn't change any settings or install any updates--Google merely decided to push out an automatic update to its APKs without my knowledge or consent, and Google Play Services constantly crashes every 5 seconds, popping up a dialog box that I have to manually dismiss. I can't even do a simple task like send an SMS or check my email, because every 5 seconds it pops up another "Unfortunately..." box. There's no practical way to roll it back, nor even to report the problem. The best I can do is find people reporting the same problem on Reddit and hope that Google gets its act together so I can actually have a usable phone again; maybe one morning I'll wake up and my phone will not be "sick" anymore. In the meantime I have a really dumb "smartphone" that keeps my leg warm. I have had high hopes for Android, but I now consider it to be a mess, and consider Google to be a highly irresponsible steward. I don't want an iPhone, but if someone wants a reliable smartphone without nasty surprises, they are probably better served with one.

qznc 11y ago
You can disable automatic updates. You can remove Google Play Services. Similar problems happen with Debian as well. E.g. hibernation breaks or WiFi stops working.
- alphapapa 11y ago
  I never enable automatic app updates. However, Google Play Services is unaffected by this setting--it updates whenever Google wants it to, without any indication to the device owner. Sure, I could use Android without Google Play Services. That would also mean not being able to use the vast majority of apps in the Play Store--and I don't mean games. That would mean not being able to use, e.g. Google Maps. So to use Google Maps, I should have to give Google free rein to push updates to its software to my phone whenever it wants, including untested updates that cause breakage, crashes, and battery draining causing high temperatures? This is what's wrong with Android. And you can't seriously claim that such drastic breakage happens on a regular basis with Debian Stable.
  - tetheno 11y ago
    You can use AOSP and install the Google Maps apk without Google Play Services. It's a hassle though. I would also like to have more control over what Google does in my Android phone while not losing the ability to install apps easily.
throwaway7767 11y ago
I really miss maemo, it was pretty much what you're describing. Being able to rebuild packages directly from the debian archive if I wanted some new software, or patch some system software and put it in my own APT repository, are things I really liked. In addition to the problems you describe with google moving more core functionality into its "Google Apps" packages, it also means that running android without the google bits is getting increasingly hard. It's missing some core functionality that other non-google apps expect.
- 11y ago

pjmlp 11y ago

Actually thanks to the Android architecture, having Linux as the kernel is pretty irrelevant to most users and developers. Given the thin APIs exposed in the NDK, Google could change it by any UNIX flavored kernel and no one would notice. The OEMs might be a bit pissed off if they had to change the APIs, but that's all.