7 ms·

And, supposing this is true, would you actually be surprised by this? This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valle

And, supposing this is true, would you actually be surprised by this? This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valley.

scott_karana 11y ago
> This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valley. I read that as: > This is a company whose products are high-velocity 1500kg chunks of steel zooming around in public, not a company that sells an intangible virtual good/service --- Yes, I know software is historically poor with car companies, but we should still expect better. Let's not just lower our standards because of cynicism :-)
mrighele 11y ago
I found products made by car companies to be in general more reliable than those made by software companies (either in Silicon Valley or not). I trust my life to my car (software included) every day. I wouldn't do that with any software of my smartphone, not even the OS.
- Laaw 11y ago
  Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. When an engineer builds a bridge, she has to personally sign off on the bridge, saying it's safe, and is risking not only her professional career, but I think she can also be jailed and held criminally liable if the bridge kills people due to negligence. It blows my mind, at least, that no such thing exists for software.
  - jes 11y ago
    If you could have perfectly safe software, without requiring individual engineers to be licensed, would that be acceptable to you? I'm not asking if you think such a thing would be possible or not - I'm asking if you would accept an alternate means of getting what I think we both want.
  - ambrop7 11y ago
    There are many standards of engineering involving software. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C
    - angersock 11y ago
      The big problem with all those standards, frankly, is that you've gotta pay money to actually evaluate them. There aren't any guarantees that they'll be useful, that they'll match the modern development processes in your language, that they'll fit your problem domain, etc. Those standards are there primarily to make the publisher a buck--not to represent the codified wisdom of up-to-date practitioners in a field. Until we've got a truly open-source standard for people to code against, we should stop wringing our hands about these things.
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Does any one really thinks that true? http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-industry-standard/automotive-iso-26262-misra http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliability_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262
    - mreiland 11y ago
      YOU STOP THAT RIGHT NOW. OUR LORD AND SAVIOR UNCLE BOB MARTIN SEZ WE NEED STANDARDS BEFORE THE GUBBERMINT MAKES US DO IT. FOR THE LOVE OF <deity> DO NOT CONTINUE POINTING OUT THAT STANDARDS HAVE NECESSARILY SPRUNG UP IN SEGMENTS OF THE INDUSTRY THAT INVOLVE RISK. UNCLE BOB WILL FIND YOU... UNCLE BOB KNOWS ALL, SEES ALL... PUNISHES ALL. /end sarcasm
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - Laaw 11y ago
      None of those are what I described, though.
      - dogma1138 11y ago
        > Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? ISO, IEC, etc. > There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. MISRA, SCSC, etc.
        Laaw 11y ago
        Combine my individual sentences, as I did, and try again.
  - eru 11y ago
    Not sure whether software is the domain that standards should be applied to. Software is just a tool. If you use software to build a bridge, bridge standards should apply. If you use software to build a car, car standards should apply. If you use software to build a fart app, fart app standards should apply. (Which frankly, don't have to be very high.)
  - slavik81 11y ago
    A company I worked for had a permit to practice and required engineering sign-off for each release.
glenneroo 11y ago
Someone else posted this higher up: Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-.. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-.... The industry also has specific coding standard for every language that is used in embedded systems like MISRA-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C
- ScottBurson 11y ago
  But see the reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10355200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10355200
walshemj 11y ago
And a German one and from experience dealing with German companies software isn't regarded I the same light as what they would consider "proper engineering"

And, supposing this is true, would you actually be surprised by this? This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valley.

scott_karana 11y ago

> This is a car company, not a CI and code-review obsessed software company in Silicon Valley. I read that as: > This is a company whose products are high-velocity 1500kg chunks of steel zooming around in public, not a company that sells an intangible virtual good/service --- Yes, I know software is historically poor with car companies, but we should still expect better. Let's not just lower our standards because of cynicism :-)

mrighele 11y ago

I found products made by car companies to be in general more reliable than those made by software companies (either in Silicon Valley or not). I trust my life to my car (software included) every day. I wouldn't do that with any software of my smartphone, not even the OS.

Laaw 11y ago
Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. When an engineer builds a bridge, she has to personally sign off on the bridge, saying it's safe, and is risking not only her professional career, but I think she can also be jailed and held criminally liable if the bridge kills people due to negligence. It blows my mind, at least, that no such thing exists for software.
- jes 11y ago
  If you could have perfectly safe software, without requiring individual engineers to be licensed, would that be acceptable to you? I'm not asking if you think such a thing would be possible or not - I'm asking if you would accept an alternate means of getting what I think we both want.
- ambrop7 11y ago
  There are many standards of engineering involving software. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62304 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C
  - angersock 11y ago
    The big problem with all those standards, frankly, is that you've gotta pay money to actually evaluate them. There aren't any guarantees that they'll be useful, that they'll match the modern development processes in your language, that they'll fit your problem domain, etc. Those standards are there primarily to make the publisher a buck--not to represent the codified wisdom of up-to-date practitioners in a field. Until we've got a truly open-source standard for people to code against, we should stop wringing our hands about these things.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  Does any one really thinks that true? http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-industry-standard/automotive-iso-26262-misra http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliability_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_26262
  - mreiland 11y ago
    YOU STOP THAT RIGHT NOW. OUR LORD AND SAVIOR UNCLE BOB MARTIN SEZ WE NEED STANDARDS BEFORE THE GUBBERMINT MAKES US DO IT. FOR THE LOVE OF <deity> DO NOT CONTINUE POINTING OUT THAT STANDARDS HAVE NECESSARILY SPRUNG UP IN SEGMENTS OF THE INDUSTRY THAT INVOLVE RISK. UNCLE BOB WILL FIND YOU... UNCLE BOB KNOWS ALL, SEES ALL... PUNISHES ALL. /end sarcasm
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - Laaw 11y ago
    None of those are what I described, though.
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      > Doesn't it blow your mind that there are no "standards of engineering" or whatever for software? ISO, IEC, etc. > There's no licensure body for software engineers who build software running your car, and therefore no accountability on a personal level. MISRA, SCSC, etc.
      - Laaw 11y ago
        Combine my individual sentences, as I did, and try again.
- eru 11y ago
  Not sure whether software is the domain that standards should be applied to. Software is just a tool. If you use software to build a bridge, bridge standards should apply. If you use software to build a car, car standards should apply. If you use software to build a fart app, fart app standards should apply. (Which frankly, don't have to be very high.)
- slavik81 11y ago
  A company I worked for had a permit to practice and required engineering sign-off for each release.

glenneroo 11y ago

Someone else posted this higher up: Then you don't know the motor industry very much as it has very strict coding standards like ISO 26262, the code has to be audited internally and by certified 3rd parties with every release to meet the development cycle requirements of the standards. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-.. http://www.ldra.com/en/software-quality-test-tools/group/by-.... The industry also has specific coding standard for every language that is used in embedded systems like MISRA-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C

ScottBurson 11y ago
But see the reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10355200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10355200

walshemj 11y ago

And a German one and from experience dealing with German companies software isn't regarded I the same light as what they would consider "proper engineering"