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Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth
- dragansah 11y agoThe comments below the article are very interesting especially the ones about destroying the ottoman heritage.
- littletimmy 11y agoSomeone should pay more attention to preserving old heritage sites and historical structures in Mecca. The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland. What shame.
- po1nter 11y agoThere is a Wikipedia article[1] about these destruction of old monuments. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_heritage_sites_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_h...
- 1024core 11y ago> The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland. My guess is that they're doing it to put a Wahabbi stamp on things and erase everything else.
- Gibbon1 11y agoThe Wahabbi/Salifists see destroying all that old stuff as a feature not a bug.
- xsace 11y agoWhile a cool and nicely illustrated article, I fail to see how it's relevant to HN.
- josephpmay 11y agoThe HN guidelines allow for articles of general interest to the community, which this falls under.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- DanBC 11y agoJust out of interest: what do you think is on-topic for HN? Also, from the guidelines. > On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
- xsace 11y agoWell you just said it: "Anything that good hackers would find interesting" and not "Anything that anyone would find interesting".
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- delinka 11y agoAnd how does one determine whether the upvote button was pressed by "a good hacker" rather than "anyone?"
- DanBC 11y agoWhat's the difference?
- xsace 11y agoThe difference is the audience. While I found this article interesting in itself, it's something that can be interesting to anyone, regardless of its background. While harmless at first look, this can be an issue if too many content fall into this category. Then you end up with a reddit clone instead of HackerNews. I'm here to see hacker news, not interesting stuff for anyone.
- meric 11y agoAmazing city. It's unfortunate the Ajyad Fortress (1) had to be demolished to make way for the tower with the largest clock face in the world (2). I also note every time I visited a devout Muslim's small business or home, and they have a picture of the Grand Mosque, it's free of the new modern additions that will facilitate two million (and growing) pilgrims who visit every year. I suppose the Saudi government didn't care much for past heritage and tradition because, for muslims, Islam is the religion for the present, and the future. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait
- _petronius 11y agoA certain amount of almost Byzantine-style iconoclasm seems to be a feature of Wahabbism[1] in particular, rather than Islam as a whole. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism#Shi.27a_criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism#Shi.27a_criticism
- wtbob 11y agoNote that the Byzantine iconoclasts were heavily influenced by the very early Mohammedan conquests, which rather tends to support the Wahabbists' claims to be the original Islam.
- mnazim 11y agoQuran and Hadith, devoid of their historical context, leave them open to application as required, to safeguard the interests of the ruling elite. It's all about power and organised religion is one of the most potent tool to keep masses in check.
- insulanian 11y ago> for muslims, Islam is the religion for the present, and the future. Well said.
- exodust 11y ago
- bane 11y agoPerhaps somebody here knows, why are tents still used at the midway point in Mina? It seems that permanent structures and infrastructure would do a more efficient job of housing all the pilgrims. Is it tradition or a religious requirement of some sort?
- raihansaputra 11y agoafaik, it's because Mina is only populated during the Hajj and the temporary structures are deemed enough, while the other structures (additional lanes for the stone throwing, the tunnel or additional levels in the Grand Mosque) are either necessary or still usable outside of Hajj season.
- theklub 11y agoIt looks like they are building as fast as they can to be honest. I'm sure its only a matter of time.
- tdees40 11y agoMecca seems like a pretty fascinating place. It's a terrible shame non-Muslims are banned.
- petepete 11y agoI don't think the Saudi tourist board need any more help.
- notNow 11y agoNothing to see there. Not long even Muslims get bored there. Wahabis are not really big on history and artifacts. If you think that this is some kind of an open air museum, think again.
- rikacomet 11y agoIt is not a place of entertainment or sight-seeing. Hajj is a Farz for Muslims. Anyone who enter's Mecca ought to do so with the thought of his Lord on him, seeking redemption and forgiveness. Or Would you worship your Lord only if it is 'entertaining to you'?
- mangamadaiyan 11y agoWhat makes you think it's for entertainment? Why are you so touchy? Plenty of people who don't believe in Churches or other places of religious worship still visit them, purely out of curiosity if not anything else. Your last question is in extremely bad taste - and I say this as a non-believer.
- notNow 11y agoWhat would make you think that a non Muslim person would be interested in 'redemption' and 'have the thought of his Lord on him' whatever that might be when visiting or exploring Mecca? Sorry to burst your bubble but non Muslims in general are only interested in visiting Mecca for the historical value and contents that it holds nothing more. That's why I warned the OP that there is not much to see as the Saudi Wahabis destroyed virtually everything of historical value in the city and the surroundings in the same fashion ISIS has been doing in Syria or Iraq and even this is becoming a very sensitive topic for Hijazi people, the natives of the region since those Bedouins from the midlands and desert are destroying their heritage while they sitting idle and getting away with it.
- thewarrior 11y agoThat clock tower and hotel are an abomination and in bad taste.It's as if someone decided to put a Las Vegas style Casino style building right next to the Vatican.
- spacecowboy_lon 11y agoI know I used to work for Dar Al Handasha (who designed that clock tower) and even as a non mulslim I think its a shocking way to treat they holy places.
- Alex3917 11y agoIn the west we do the same thing, e.g. just look at Niagra falls.
- ericras 11y agoBetter example might be the private Gettysburg National Tower that stood from 1974 to 2000: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5481/11078991455_f4ebf6ffc0_b.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5481/11078991455_f4ebf6ffc0_b....
- spacecowboy_lon 11y agoWe haven't knocked down Stonehenge or the church of the holy nativity in Bethlehem. To build the tower I believe they demolished the prophets mothers house!
- dantheman 11y agoLas Vegas style casinos have more class than that building, it's truly terrible.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- riffraff 11y agoto be fair, someone did decide to put a new design right thing next to the Vatican, and Via della Conciliazione[0] is widely criticized. (Yet, nowhere as bad as the clock tower, I would say). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_della_Conciliazione https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_della_Conciliazione
- rikacomet 11y agoIslamic Perspective in Rough (need citation): Prophet Adam (Peace be upon Him) created the first House of Worship at Kaaba. During the time of Prophet Nuh (Noah) (Peace be Upon Him), it was in one sense, 'lost'. Then Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) 'the true' and Prophet Ismail (?) (Peace be Upon them) rebuilt the Kabba again. Again and Again, Kabba and Mecca with it, were lost (to what?) Until At last, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) cleaned it for the last time. Removing the 360+ idols placed within. A interesting story, just Before the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is that a certain king vowed to destroy the Kaaba, and plunder the city of Mecca. To which he was roughly told 'The Owner of this House is well capable of protecting it'. The Army of that King was killed by a hailstorm of stones carried by countless birds, a sign for those who believe.
- jdmichal 11y agoTo fill in your (?), I believe Ismail would be otherwise known as Ishmael: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael
- exodust 11y agoSuggestion: 'Peace Be Upon Him' => 'PBUH'
- chroma 11y agoYour username looked familiar. I finally figured out where I'd seen it. Earlier this year, we both commented on an article about the Charlie Hebdo massacre.[1][2] You said, "I think both parties were at wrong here." and, "…the level of Satire in question here, was perhaps too much."[3] I recall being utterly astonished by your comment. People were murdered for drawing cartoons and you insinuate that it was partially their fault. Shame on you. 1. HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879215 2. My comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879389 3. rikacomet's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879528
- tboyd47 11y agoOne thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more. This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudis to expand the masjid, build camps at Mina, allow hotels to be constructed, modernize the facilities, etc. that every person is able to actually perform the rites of hajj at the proper times. Hajj consists of a number of rites that have to be performed in certain places at certain times on certain days. Think about what it takes to organize millions of people trying to do this. It's very different than organizing thousands, or tens of thousands. You have to accommodate all their sleeping arrangements. You have to provide enough space for marketplaces so they can get something to eat. You have to widen the roads, air condition the facilities, make sure each group leaves at their own time, etc. It's true that the Saudis aren't perfect, and they make mistakes, but my point is that it's easy to get the impression from the massive construction projects that they are just trying to make another Dubai or Olympics. But really, there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money, and there is also a lot going on behind the scenes that you can't see in the pictures. It would be easier for the Saudis to just restrict the visas to a tiny fraction and not go through with all of the construction and organizing, but they are making the effort as you can see. I know this is not going to be a popular comment here but I'm just trying to offset all the negative comments with some positive.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoWait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.
- tboyd47 11y agoHajj visas are very restrictive. You aren't allowed to go anywhere except Mecca and Medina, and you're only allowed to stay for the length of hajj plus a few days extra for travel. And many of the people who go to hajj have spent their life's savings just to get there. So not a lot of foreign money is flowing, at least not compared to those other places.
- gnyman 11y agoIn case you don't see any pictures, unblock "Optimizely". At least with the standard ghostery install it did not load any pictures before I allowed Optimizely.
- codezero 11y agoIt's amazing how many people implement Optimizely in a way that breaks the site if you block it.
- chippy 11y ago"The most comprehensive database of Hajj and Umrah ratings and reviews worldwide! Find out what pilgrims say before you choose your Hajj or Umrah travel agent, company, or group." http://www.hajjratings.com/ http://www.hajjratings.com/ Like trip advisor but for pilgrims. Wonderful comments. "They are terrible guys. They gave me wrong transportation and they overcharged me for the airline ticket as opposed to other people. Avoid at any cost!!!! " People just like us and many from HN travel to these places and they experience it in a great many ways. Hajj is not a holiday, but it's certainly travel!
- njharman 11y agoThe huge towers are pretty amazing. I have never seen them in any other pictures of the Kabba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait
- sandworm101 11y agoI'm not muslim but did live in Saudi Arabia for many years (aramco) and have to say that the saudi government is very devout when it comes to hajj. When accidents happened, the entire country was upset regardless of the news blackouts. The ability to provide hajj underpins the royal family's authority. They take is very personally. But a few things... (1) The ban on non-muslims is not as tight as portrayed. More than a few westerners have been to mecca, many to advise on hajj matters. There are also legendary stories of non-muslim children being brought on hajj by saudi families. I heard stories from neighbours, things more than rumours, but never met anyone who actually witnessed this. (2) Lots of the people sleeping rough do so by choice. Many simply do not want pillows and beds during hajj. For them it isn't meant to be comfortable. More hotel-type rooms may help, but it will never get everyone off the streets. (3) Security is a huge issue. Religious extremists have caused plenty of trouble. The Saudis have large numbers of soldiers hidden just out of sight to quell any repeat. (4) The clockface is horrible, but that is the style in the country. People who go to Vegas sometimes remark about that style, but it is just a matter of taste. If you were living there it wouldn't seem nearly as bad. The clock itself also serves a purpose. Many pilgrims do not wear watches, most all are suffering jet lag and much of the process is now indoors. So like vegas, it is very easy to loose track of time. The various clocks are all big and horrible, but do serve some function. (It also has to be a mechanical clock, else everyone would insist on arabic numerals, which I've never seen on any digial wallclock.) (5) The King actually does hajj each year, during the appropriate time. He has guards, but they could do nothing for him in a crush. For a man his age we have to give him some credit.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]