13 ms·

Deaths Draw Attention to Wall Street’s Grueling Pace

123 points by jackgavigan 11y ago

JumpCrisscross 11y ago
> You can’t really stand out because most of what you’re doing does not require original thinking. So the only way you can distinguish yourself is by sheer endurance. Several years ago, when I was weighing junior roles in trading and banking, a private equity manager with whom I consulted advised: "nobody became a millionaire by being a grunt". Hard work is important, but it shouldn't be your chief differentiator. On a broader level, I've always found firms that rely on over-working their junior staff to (a) have rotten pathways for internal advancement and (b) a sore bias towards throwing grunts, versus technology, at process problems.
- thomasfl 11y ago
  Thank's for sharing this inside info. It's hard to imagine a better example to explain the importance of rest and sleep even if people are motived to keep on working.
cryoshon 11y ago
Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive" firms. They can't make a robot or computer program that completely replaces these people's ability to convert life into money, yet a robot is exactly what they need, and so they find folks who are willing to be that robot and dehumanize themselves. There's always a lot of hubbub regarding Ivy league types landing in Goldman-esque shops then dying of overwork etc, and I think it's telling. Jumping through the hoops despite increasingly unreasonable demands is stereotypical behavior from these people, and it's very much to their detriment, as well as ours. Spinelessness has consequences. These are the people that society views as the elite, yet they're childish in their inability to reality-check the limits of their own lives, which results in poor mental health and suicide or drug abuse. I can't muster empathy here. They worked hard for their chance to play brutal games, and then got brutalized as a result.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- FD3SA 11y ago
  Absolutely on point. What always amazes me about these "super-lemmings" is that they are so unaware that they are being thoroughly exploited. They don't understand basic economics, that if you have zero leisure time, all of your earnings are for nothing. I'm sure their goals are some variation of: "I'll work 120 hour weeks for 5 years straight to make a seven figure nest egg, then retire off the interest forever." This single variable optimization is very childish for somebody supposedly schooled in economics. Very few human decisions are based on a single variable, as we are fragile creatures with a large number of physical, emotional and mental needs that need to be satisfied on a daily basis. Let this be a warning to all the SV hopefuls: don't be a lemming. Don't sacrifice rationality for idealism. There are severe consequences.
  - Bulkington 11y ago
    'Meh' this comment sequence. If I overreact, it's because these were at the top of comment thread when I caught the post, and (at the risk going Reddit on HN) this is pure Reddit ad hominem BS. Self-proclaimed übermenschen defy gravity in their own minds. Great. Have at it. Edit: Sorry, should have said 'self-imagined' rather than 'self-proclaimed.' Regardless, login in 20 years and let me know how it's worked out.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      Even with your edit, I'm still confused as to what point you're trying to make. You seem to be calling out the parent comments on behavior, but your ending sentence makes it seem like you agree. The kicker is that you appear to do both in a fairly negative way, so proponents of either side of the argument might find something to disagree with in both tone and message, which is probably netting you some down votes.
      - Bulkington 11y ago
confluence 11y ago
My rule is that no job is worth dying for. If the expectations are unreasonable, quit.
- BadassFractal 11y ago
  My rule is that unless yours or a loved one's basic well-being is at stake (e.g. you have family to support and no savings), you should not be putting up with a job that's causing you physical or psychological distress. Obviously situations can be complicated, but you should aim for that most of the time.
pcunite 11y ago
Greed is cruel. A lot of us here want to "make it big". Don't do this to yourself or to others on your journey. Behind every perverse way is a devil whispering in your ear, "its okay". Don't listen to that.
bglazer 11y ago
I just finished the longest stint of work that I've had in my short career. Probably 80 hours for two weeks. I didn't really keep track. I have mixed feelings. I got a lot done. The quality of work that happened around 8-10pm was pretty low, but it got done. I did no physical activity and my stress levels were through the roof, which led to some moments of intense mental anguish. On the other hand, I felt a great sense of accomplishment and knowing that I am capable of working that diligently on something is satisfying. So I understand why bankers work these hours and even defend them. I also understand why someone might feel like killing themselves after working >80 hours for months or years on end.
- pcunite 11y ago
  I've done this too. I think it is dangerous, maybe even something that could become addictive. I know, the pressure to get the product out the door. If you truly have down time and can truly get away, maybe there is a way. But that is the trick, you may get trapped in that lifestyle and "just one more all nighter".
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
001sky 11y ago
These three cases seem to be ill-linked in the correlation/causation department. One was a clear medical condition; another a suicide; and the third was linked to an event involved a relapse of substance abuse. Three deaths of this nature could easily occur in any industry with a presence in a major city like nY, sf, london, tokyo, hong kong, paris etc. How many creatives list similar CODs ? Heath ledger, amy winehouse, peaches geldof and many other creative types at varying levels of success. We can look high-risk activities and see near-suicidal behaviour in the extreme sports athletes (RIP dean potter and 250 others http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/ http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/). And similar medical related deaths and accidents occur in athletes even in standard sports (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/conditions/why-are-high-performance-athletes-having-heart-attacks/article4100522/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/healt...). Which is no apology for mis-management. Its just perhaps a larger picture issue than any single industry or particular niche. Glory and all that.
asimilator 11y ago
> there is no evidence that the incidence of suicide by young professionals on Wall Street is higher than in any other industry. Doesn't this undermine the premise of the article? The deaths are tragic, but if the suicide rate of Wall Street professionals is no higher than normal how can the suicides be tied to the "grueling pace" as opposed to whatever causes suicide in the general population?
- pm90 11y ago
  For one thing, the people that work on Wall Street are highly educated, mostly Ivy League types (from the article). I guess the premise is that if you were smart/rich enough to get that, society expected you to succeed spectacularly, not jump to your death. i.e. the expectation is that the suicide rate be negligible.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  Numeracy and journalism aren't exactly bossom buddies.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ratsmack 11y ago
Many people work long grueling shifts in stressful positions for years and don't see the need to binge on alcohol and cocaine to manage. I feel sorry for anyone that dies, but I see this as a situation where this person suffers from symptoms of a weak character and/or mental issues.
curiousjorge 11y ago
commenting on this quote from the article: "‘I’m 29. This is what you do when you’re 29" I don't know what the fuck is it with this wall street culture. I find SV culture banal and disgusting but no where close to the shit show that is the wall street glamorized by movies and tv shows. I would've done the same and I have done the same when I was 25. Working like crazy. You realize one day, this is bullshit. Everyone in this shitty place is fucking bullshit. A check at the end of the fucking month that translates into a measely minimum wage if you count the long hours and the office male bravado bullshit. High school never ends. It's only after I was chewed and spit out, I realized, no amount of glamor or prestige is worth chasing if there's no chance at MY happiness and MY health. This make it till you are 30 mentality bullshit has got to go. The anxiety it gives a person in early to mid 20s to feel like you need to keep moving to feel like you are moving closer to success. Lot of young men like ourselves are conditioned to believe that giving up a decade of our youth to live like kings and gods the rest of our lives is a pretty seductive thought, no matter how unlikely the chances, society almost expects young men to behave and perform like robots, showing no emotion, just take it and bring home the bacon. These days, I'm a bit older and beginning to think, good things, like all other things, take time. This kamikaze rags to riches type of mentality we see in movies, doesn't seem to work very well (you burn out quickly). This quote from Frank Lopez in Scarface rings true here. "Hey, Tony. Remember when I told you when you first started working for me, the guys that last in this business, are the guys who fly straight. Low-key, quiet. But the guys who want it all, chicas, champagne, flash... they don't last. " Don't think I want to be part of any work culture where shitty cocaine mixed in some shithole in colombia and commiting adultery with overpriced hookers with plastic boobs .
hiddencost 11y ago
Reality warps in some really weird ways, the more you do this. You stop being able to interact with your friends that aren't doing it; you stop taking care of yourself in ways that don't feed maintenance your ability to keep grinding; you're always "on" so you never really relax enough to reflect or see things in other contexts or perspectives; in the back of your head you might know there's something wrong but you maybe can't put the pieces together, and since you've always been told you were so smart, that scares you, and you become defensive; at some point the idea that you've been on such a wrong track for so long becomes intolerable and rather than cut your losses you decide that "saner" approaches are really weakness. That's at least part of what I experienced, in a similar life style. At some point I realized if I kept doing it, I'd end up dead or crazy in ways I didn't want, and found alternatives that let me live and explore. But quitting was one of the scariest things I've done in my life.
knight17 11y ago
This is not a new development and certainly not exclusive to Wallstreet or the City or Amazon or magic circle. It is part of the aura of these places—belief that the endurance necessary for this kind of over work isn't present outside and that they are/will be better for overcoming this ordeal— that this makes them different from others this is part of the exclusiveness of these places along with the pay. But there are many people working equally harder and sometimes even [harder]. Here is another story from less prestigious cousins of WallSt. and magic circle law firms: Big 4 auditors! A PwC associate overworked to [18 hours a day, 120 a week]. [harder] : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-nearly-died-making-ipad http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-n... [18 hours a day, 120 a week] : 1. http://offbeatchina.com/25-year-old-auditor-at-pwc-shanghai-worked-to-death-time-to-rethink-work-life-balance http://offbeatchina.com/25-year-old-auditor-at-pwc-shanghai-... 2. http://goingconcern.com/2011/4/did-a-pwc-auditor-work-herself-to-death http://goingconcern.com/2011/4/did-a-pwc-auditor-work-hersel...
Zigurd 11y ago
The tragedy is that this is unnecessary. If Wall Street compensation can support paying enormous compensation, it can support hiring enough people to do the work. As with medical residents' brutal schedules, it's tradition over rationality.
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  I've no direct experience of this, but this is my take as well. Can anyone explain why two people doing 50 hour weeks at half the salary wouldn't be better for everyone (the employees, their colleagues, the firms that employ them, their clients, society)?
  - DomreiRoam 11y ago
    I think it would be better for most people but coordination cost doesn't grow linearly. So if part of the job imply coordination or communication you will need more than doubling to have the same output.
    - dlss 11y ago
      Very much this. Also: knowledge production isn't a linear function of time. "If it takes one mathematician 12 months of work to prove a theorem, how long would it take 12 mathematicians?" ... probably 13 months :p
      - Zigurd 11y ago
        That would be true if each problem were unique, as it is in mathematics. FTA: > You can’t really stand out because most of what you’re doing does not require original thinking. So the only way you can distinguish yourself is by sheer endurance.
saintfiends 11y ago
Hard work is important and it is the only effective and reliable way to be successful. This does not mean all nighters or alcohol-cocaine binges should be the norm, it must be the rare exception. End of the day it's-just-not-worth-it over everything else. If you think it is the norm or encourage such behavior, you're selfish, you're what is wrong with the society.
nickbauman 11y ago
I have a friend who is a Market Maker on Wall St. He's very successful makes a lot of money, works very long, but he has a very low self esteem. He tells me "I don't know how to actually do anything of any use in the world." I don't really understand him but I think he ends up feeling like his life is worthless. At the end of the day he could be as rich as Midas but he hasn't figured out what life is worth even to himself. Assuming your belly is full, I think if you're not curing cancer or something like that you'd better be doing something that makes you happy: the work itself has to be fun. Otherwise you could end up like this guy or my friend.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  The funny thing is, when it boils down to it, many jobs in our society are superfluous... We survived without technology, with a less-developed finance sector, without cars and airplanes, yet here we are with entire sectors of the economy that probably aren't 'needed' for a happy life. At least in finance you can get to a number where you can finally say 'fuck it', and go do what you really want to do...
  - copperx 11y ago
    I can't help it but comment on how much posts regarding work/life balance focus on optimizing for happiness, but rare is the article that mentions how important is finding meaning in one's work to leading a fulfilling life. I would argue, for example, that finding meaning as a grunt or even as a big fish in the financial sector is harder than say, being a doctor. It's much easier to work long hours as a doctor and feel content when you see that your work has direct impact. All of this is obvious, but I rarely see it mentioned. We should optimize for meaning in our work, not happiness.
    - eanzenberg 11y ago
      It's more then that.. it's about perception (how you spin things). For example, you could look at american doctors and say they mainly work on patients of self-inflicted diseases such as heart disease, obesity, etc. Then you could look at finance sector workers and see how they help people get jobs, loans and move the economy forward which leads to furthering humanity's progress and capabilities.
sobinator 11y ago
A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Fortunately, most (who don't care for the lifestyle/can't hack it) get wise and leave. The hard thing is knowing when to exit.
- Mikeb85 11y ago
  > A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Why do you say that? Finance funds most of society's ventures, the 'system' would look much different without the capital and services that the banking sector provides...
  - sdenton4 11y ago
    What should we put as the price tag of 'increased liquidity,' just one of a few of the mantras that the middlemen of finance use to justify themselves? http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-sector-consumed-americas-economic-growth http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-secto...
    - randyrand 11y ago
      Liquidity is only tangentially related to what the financial sector does. It's finance that funds ventures. Assesses risk. Decides what ventures will have good payoffs. Its' an incredibly important sector of the economy. Tell me. Take a look at the services provided here and tell me which ones are "bad" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_services People that say we shouldn't like the financial sector are people that don't understand finance.
    - eru 11y ago
      Liquidity actually means that the middle men get less..
  - cm2187 11y ago
    I would like to say that talent is not wasted on social network and user tracking websites.
touchofevil 11y ago
My background is film production, which is an industry that I think has really tested the limits of how many hours a person can work without dying. If a film shoot could work their crew more hours, they would, but at a certain point your crew will die in car accidents on their way to and from set due to sleep deprivation. See a documentary called "Who Needs Sleep?" for more on that. Thanks to unions in the film industry there are rules about how many hours a crew can work in a day without the production incurring very expensive overtime penalties. For example, once an actor is on set for 16 hours, they hit what is called "Golden Time" and they are paid their full day rate every hour. There's also a 12 hour turnaround for actors, meaning that if an actor is wrapped at 8pm, they can't be called to set until 8:00am the following day (there is a 10 hour turnaround time for crew). Film shoots are extremely time-sensitive endeavors. You might only have rented a location for one day, so there is a lot of pressure to shoot everything you need for the movie at that location, no matter how far overtime the production must push their crew. This would quickly get out of control if overtime rules were not stringently enforced. The result is that every day of a film production is scheduled down to the minute before the day even begins, ideally. Night crews and swing-shifts get scheduled, rather than working a crew for 24 hours straight, again ideally. My point is that it is possible to do time-sensitive, high-pressure, complicated work without pushing people past their physical limits. It just requires tons of planning and scheduling. However the only way to get an employer to put resources into planning and scheduling is to make sure that there are incentives (or disincentives) for them to behave this way. There must be strict financial penalties that prevent employees at banks from working too many hours. A 29 year-old banker getting a $400,000 bonus is not going to tell his employer that he needs to leave the office by 7pm anymore than an aspiring Hollywood actress is going to tell her director that the crew must stop shooting because it is past her bedtime. In certain industries, where jobs are highly sought after and rewards are large, you cannot depend on workers to regulate themselves.
CurtMonash 11y ago
I was on Wall Street in the 1980s. Things weren't that bad yet. I was the only stock analyst in a department of ~50 who routinely pulled all-nighters, which was one of many reasons I was considered odd. There was only one guy who definitely flamed out on cocaine, and only a few others of whom debilitating substance abuse could even be reasonably suspected. And I'm pretty sure that investment banking wasn't all that much worse.
cm2187 11y ago
Junior doctors do similar hours, sleeping a couple of hours at the hospital when they can. What is absurd is that the long hours juniors do in investment banking are terribly inefficient. First because they spend them on tasks that could be automated or outsourced: compiling financials, formatting powerpoints (Microsoft shares a large part of responsability for their poor UI!). Second because the more tired they become, the less efficient they are at what they do. It is often the case that they would probably get the same done quicker by calling it a day at 9pm and coming back the next day with a fresh mind. But peer pressure prevents that. Third because even though they spend their time at the office they actually do not work continuously. Them staying late is more often than not because they were assigned something at 5pm with an unrealistic deadline. In this business managers usually disregard the implications of when in the day they give work or feedback. And I suspect it is often because they have been there, done that, as juniors, and have little sympathy for the juniors' time spent at the office. It's a kind of rite of passage.
- FelixP 11y ago
  Banker here. We actually have automated and outsourced quite a bit of the drudgery, although doing it within the framework of Excel and PowerPoint often requires some pretty strange contortions from a UI perspective.
greatthanks 11y ago
Live by greed, die by greed.
makecheck 11y ago
I knew someone doing corporate accounting who left at 6 in the morning for work, and almost always came home after midnight. 7 days a week (because who needs weekends, right?). Since the work cycled quarterly trying to get "the numbers", the only thing that resembled a break was the end of a quarter; and even then, this pathetic "break" was like a single day because they felt they had to get started on the next quarter. He actually told me that divorces were fairly common among his co-workers. I wonder why. He appeared to be paid well but (as others have noted) certainly not nearly enough when you divide a seemingly-impressive salary into an hourly rate. And frankly I think peer pressure was a big problem. All throughout the chain, it's like they're all too afraid to be the first to say "wtf is this?" and propose a sane work week. If I extrapolate this type of job to the number of large companies out there, I am astounded by the number of people whose lives are essentially ruined by quarter-to-quarter. It's garbage. Decades ago companies did not seem so pressured to show results each quarter or come up with insane ways to avoid taxes; they just pursued a reasonable profit.

123 points by jackgavigan 11y ago

> You can’t really stand out because most of what you’re doing does not require original thinking. So the only way you can distinguish yourself is by sheer endurance. Several years ago, when I was weighing junior roles in trading and banking, a private equity manager with whom I consulted advised: "nobody became a millionaire by being a grunt". Hard work is important, but it shouldn't be your chief differentiator. On a broader level, I've always found firms that rely on over-working their junior staff to (a) have rotten pathways for internal advancement and (b) a sore bias towards throwing grunts, versus technology, at process problems.

thomasfl 11y ago
Thank's for sharing this inside info. It's hard to imagine a better example to explain the importance of rest and sleep even if people are motived to keep on working.

cryoshon 11y ago

Meh. I can't imagine the mindset that would lead someone to sacrifice their entire existence on the pyre of working; what's the point of making big cash if you've got no time or people to enjoy it with? I think that these kind of aberrant/nauseating/maladapted pathological behaviors (working insane hours, money addiction) show a bewildering lack of wisdom that is intentionally selected for among the "most competitive" firms. They can't make a robot or computer program that completely replaces these people's ability to convert life into money, yet a robot is exactly what they need, and so they find folks who are willing to be that robot and dehumanize themselves. There's always a lot of hubbub regarding Ivy league types landing in Goldman-esque shops then dying of overwork etc, and I think it's telling. Jumping through the hoops despite increasingly unreasonable demands is stereotypical behavior from these people, and it's very much to their detriment, as well as ours. Spinelessness has consequences. These are the people that society views as the elite, yet they're childish in their inability to reality-check the limits of their own lives, which results in poor mental health and suicide or drug abuse. I can't muster empathy here. They worked hard for their chance to play brutal games, and then got brutalized as a result.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
FD3SA 11y ago
Absolutely on point. What always amazes me about these "super-lemmings" is that they are so unaware that they are being thoroughly exploited. They don't understand basic economics, that if you have zero leisure time, all of your earnings are for nothing. I'm sure their goals are some variation of: "I'll work 120 hour weeks for 5 years straight to make a seven figure nest egg, then retire off the interest forever." This single variable optimization is very childish for somebody supposedly schooled in economics. Very few human decisions are based on a single variable, as we are fragile creatures with a large number of physical, emotional and mental needs that need to be satisfied on a daily basis. Let this be a warning to all the SV hopefuls: don't be a lemming. Don't sacrifice rationality for idealism. There are severe consequences.
- Bulkington 11y ago
  'Meh' this comment sequence. If I overreact, it's because these were at the top of comment thread when I caught the post, and (at the risk going Reddit on HN) this is pure Reddit ad hominem BS. Self-proclaimed übermenschen defy gravity in their own minds. Great. Have at it. Edit: Sorry, should have said 'self-imagined' rather than 'self-proclaimed.' Regardless, login in 20 years and let me know how it's worked out.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    Even with your edit, I'm still confused as to what point you're trying to make. You seem to be calling out the parent comments on behavior, but your ending sentence makes it seem like you agree. The kicker is that you appear to do both in a fairly negative way, so proponents of either side of the argument might find something to disagree with in both tone and message, which is probably netting you some down votes.
    - Bulkington 11y ago

confluence 11y ago

My rule is that no job is worth dying for. If the expectations are unreasonable, quit.

BadassFractal 11y ago
My rule is that unless yours or a loved one's basic well-being is at stake (e.g. you have family to support and no savings), you should not be putting up with a job that's causing you physical or psychological distress. Obviously situations can be complicated, but you should aim for that most of the time.

pcunite 11y ago

Greed is cruel. A lot of us here want to "make it big". Don't do this to yourself or to others on your journey. Behind every perverse way is a devil whispering in your ear, "its okay". Don't listen to that.

bglazer 11y ago

I just finished the longest stint of work that I've had in my short career. Probably 80 hours for two weeks. I didn't really keep track. I have mixed feelings. I got a lot done. The quality of work that happened around 8-10pm was pretty low, but it got done. I did no physical activity and my stress levels were through the roof, which led to some moments of intense mental anguish. On the other hand, I felt a great sense of accomplishment and knowing that I am capable of working that diligently on something is satisfying. So I understand why bankers work these hours and even defend them. I also understand why someone might feel like killing themselves after working >80 hours for months or years on end.

pcunite 11y ago
I've done this too. I think it is dangerous, maybe even something that could become addictive. I know, the pressure to get the product out the door. If you truly have down time and can truly get away, maybe there is a way. But that is the trick, you may get trapped in that lifestyle and "just one more all nighter".
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

001sky 11y ago

These three cases seem to be ill-linked in the correlation/causation department. One was a clear medical condition; another a suicide; and the third was linked to an event involved a relapse of substance abuse. Three deaths of this nature could easily occur in any industry with a presence in a major city like nY, sf, london, tokyo, hong kong, paris etc. How many creatives list similar CODs ? Heath ledger, amy winehouse, peaches geldof and many other creative types at varying levels of success. We can look high-risk activities and see near-suicidal behaviour in the extreme sports athletes (RIP dean potter and 250 others http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/ http://base-jumping.eu/base-jumping-fatality-list/). And similar medical related deaths and accidents occur in athletes even in standard sports (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/conditions/why-are-high-performance-athletes-having-heart-attacks/article4100522/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/healt...). Which is no apology for mis-management. Its just perhaps a larger picture issue than any single industry or particular niche. Glory and all that.

asimilator 11y ago

> there is no evidence that the incidence of suicide by young professionals on Wall Street is higher than in any other industry. Doesn't this undermine the premise of the article? The deaths are tragic, but if the suicide rate of Wall Street professionals is no higher than normal how can the suicides be tied to the "grueling pace" as opposed to whatever causes suicide in the general population?

pm90 11y ago
For one thing, the people that work on Wall Street are highly educated, mostly Ivy League types (from the article). I guess the premise is that if you were smart/rich enough to get that, society expected you to succeed spectacularly, not jump to your death. i.e. the expectation is that the suicide rate be negligible.
dredmorbius 11y ago
Numeracy and journalism aren't exactly bossom buddies.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ratsmack 11y ago

Many people work long grueling shifts in stressful positions for years and don't see the need to binge on alcohol and cocaine to manage. I feel sorry for anyone that dies, but I see this as a situation where this person suffers from symptoms of a weak character and/or mental issues.

curiousjorge 11y ago

commenting on this quote from the article: "‘I’m 29. This is what you do when you’re 29" I don't know what the fuck is it with this wall street culture. I find SV culture banal and disgusting but no where close to the shit show that is the wall street glamorized by movies and tv shows. I would've done the same and I have done the same when I was 25. Working like crazy. You realize one day, this is bullshit. Everyone in this shitty place is fucking bullshit. A check at the end of the fucking month that translates into a measely minimum wage if you count the long hours and the office male bravado bullshit. High school never ends. It's only after I was chewed and spit out, I realized, no amount of glamor or prestige is worth chasing if there's no chance at MY happiness and MY health. This make it till you are 30 mentality bullshit has got to go. The anxiety it gives a person in early to mid 20s to feel like you need to keep moving to feel like you are moving closer to success. Lot of young men like ourselves are conditioned to believe that giving up a decade of our youth to live like kings and gods the rest of our lives is a pretty seductive thought, no matter how unlikely the chances, society almost expects young men to behave and perform like robots, showing no emotion, just take it and bring home the bacon. These days, I'm a bit older and beginning to think, good things, like all other things, take time. This kamikaze rags to riches type of mentality we see in movies, doesn't seem to work very well (you burn out quickly). This quote from Frank Lopez in Scarface rings true here. "Hey, Tony. Remember when I told you when you first started working for me, the guys that last in this business, are the guys who fly straight. Low-key, quiet. But the guys who want it all, chicas, champagne, flash... they don't last. " Don't think I want to be part of any work culture where shitty cocaine mixed in some shithole in colombia and commiting adultery with overpriced hookers with plastic boobs .

hiddencost 11y ago

Reality warps in some really weird ways, the more you do this. You stop being able to interact with your friends that aren't doing it; you stop taking care of yourself in ways that don't feed maintenance your ability to keep grinding; you're always "on" so you never really relax enough to reflect or see things in other contexts or perspectives; in the back of your head you might know there's something wrong but you maybe can't put the pieces together, and since you've always been told you were so smart, that scares you, and you become defensive; at some point the idea that you've been on such a wrong track for so long becomes intolerable and rather than cut your losses you decide that "saner" approaches are really weakness. That's at least part of what I experienced, in a similar life style. At some point I realized if I kept doing it, I'd end up dead or crazy in ways I didn't want, and found alternatives that let me live and explore. But quitting was one of the scariest things I've done in my life.

knight17 11y ago

This is not a new development and certainly not exclusive to Wallstreet or the City or Amazon or magic circle. It is part of the aura of these places—belief that the endurance necessary for this kind of over work isn't present outside and that they are/will be better for overcoming this ordeal— that this makes them different from others this is part of the exclusiveness of these places along with the pay. But there are many people working equally harder and sometimes even [harder]. Here is another story from less prestigious cousins of WallSt. and magic circle law firms: Big 4 auditors! A PwC associate overworked to [18 hours a day, 120 a week]. [harder] : http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-nearly-died-making-ipad http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/woman-n... [18 hours a day, 120 a week] : 1. http://offbeatchina.com/25-year-old-auditor-at-pwc-shanghai-worked-to-death-time-to-rethink-work-life-balance http://offbeatchina.com/25-year-old-auditor-at-pwc-shanghai-... 2. http://goingconcern.com/2011/4/did-a-pwc-auditor-work-herself-to-death http://goingconcern.com/2011/4/did-a-pwc-auditor-work-hersel...

Zigurd 11y ago

The tragedy is that this is unnecessary. If Wall Street compensation can support paying enormous compensation, it can support hiring enough people to do the work. As with medical residents' brutal schedules, it's tradition over rationality.

ZeroGravitas 11y ago
I've no direct experience of this, but this is my take as well. Can anyone explain why two people doing 50 hour weeks at half the salary wouldn't be better for everyone (the employees, their colleagues, the firms that employ them, their clients, society)?
- DomreiRoam 11y ago
  I think it would be better for most people but coordination cost doesn't grow linearly. So if part of the job imply coordination or communication you will need more than doubling to have the same output.
  - dlss 11y ago
    Very much this. Also: knowledge production isn't a linear function of time. "If it takes one mathematician 12 months of work to prove a theorem, how long would it take 12 mathematicians?" ... probably 13 months :p
    - Zigurd 11y ago
      That would be true if each problem were unique, as it is in mathematics. FTA: > You can’t really stand out because most of what you’re doing does not require original thinking. So the only way you can distinguish yourself is by sheer endurance.

saintfiends 11y ago

Hard work is important and it is the only effective and reliable way to be successful. This does not mean all nighters or alcohol-cocaine binges should be the norm, it must be the rare exception. End of the day it's-just-not-worth-it over everything else. If you think it is the norm or encourage such behavior, you're selfish, you're what is wrong with the society.

nickbauman 11y ago

I have a friend who is a Market Maker on Wall St. He's very successful makes a lot of money, works very long, but he has a very low self esteem. He tells me "I don't know how to actually do anything of any use in the world." I don't really understand him but I think he ends up feeling like his life is worthless. At the end of the day he could be as rich as Midas but he hasn't figured out what life is worth even to himself. Assuming your belly is full, I think if you're not curing cancer or something like that you'd better be doing something that makes you happy: the work itself has to be fun. Otherwise you could end up like this guy or my friend.

Mikeb85 11y ago
The funny thing is, when it boils down to it, many jobs in our society are superfluous... We survived without technology, with a less-developed finance sector, without cars and airplanes, yet here we are with entire sectors of the economy that probably aren't 'needed' for a happy life. At least in finance you can get to a number where you can finally say 'fuck it', and go do what you really want to do...
- copperx 11y ago
  I can't help it but comment on how much posts regarding work/life balance focus on optimizing for happiness, but rare is the article that mentions how important is finding meaning in one's work to leading a fulfilling life. I would argue, for example, that finding meaning as a grunt or even as a big fish in the financial sector is harder than say, being a doctor. It's much easier to work long hours as a doctor and feel content when you see that your work has direct impact. All of this is obvious, but I rarely see it mentioned. We should optimize for meaning in our work, not happiness.
  - eanzenberg 11y ago
    It's more then that.. it's about perception (how you spin things). For example, you could look at american doctors and say they mainly work on patients of self-inflicted diseases such as heart disease, obesity, etc. Then you could look at finance sector workers and see how they help people get jobs, loans and move the economy forward which leads to furthering humanity's progress and capabilities.

sobinator 11y ago

A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Fortunately, most (who don't care for the lifestyle/can't hack it) get wise and leave. The hard thing is knowing when to exit.

Mikeb85 11y ago
> A lot of good talent is wasted on Wall Street. Why do you say that? Finance funds most of society's ventures, the 'system' would look much different without the capital and services that the banking sector provides...
- sdenton4 11y ago
  What should we put as the price tag of 'increased liquidity,' just one of a few of the mantras that the middlemen of finance use to justify themselves? http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-sector-consumed-americas-economic-growth http://www.tcf.org/blog/detail/graph-how-the-financial-secto...
  - randyrand 11y ago
    Liquidity is only tangentially related to what the financial sector does. It's finance that funds ventures. Assesses risk. Decides what ventures will have good payoffs. Its' an incredibly important sector of the economy. Tell me. Take a look at the services provided here and tell me which ones are "bad" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_services People that say we shouldn't like the financial sector are people that don't understand finance.
  - eru 11y ago
    Liquidity actually means that the middle men get less..
- cm2187 11y ago
  I would like to say that talent is not wasted on social network and user tracking websites.

touchofevil 11y ago

My background is film production, which is an industry that I think has really tested the limits of how many hours a person can work without dying. If a film shoot could work their crew more hours, they would, but at a certain point your crew will die in car accidents on their way to and from set due to sleep deprivation. See a documentary called "Who Needs Sleep?" for more on that. Thanks to unions in the film industry there are rules about how many hours a crew can work in a day without the production incurring very expensive overtime penalties. For example, once an actor is on set for 16 hours, they hit what is called "Golden Time" and they are paid their full day rate every hour. There's also a 12 hour turnaround for actors, meaning that if an actor is wrapped at 8pm, they can't be called to set until 8:00am the following day (there is a 10 hour turnaround time for crew). Film shoots are extremely time-sensitive endeavors. You might only have rented a location for one day, so there is a lot of pressure to shoot everything you need for the movie at that location, no matter how far overtime the production must push their crew. This would quickly get out of control if overtime rules were not stringently enforced. The result is that every day of a film production is scheduled down to the minute before the day even begins, ideally. Night crews and swing-shifts get scheduled, rather than working a crew for 24 hours straight, again ideally. My point is that it is possible to do time-sensitive, high-pressure, complicated work without pushing people past their physical limits. It just requires tons of planning and scheduling. However the only way to get an employer to put resources into planning and scheduling is to make sure that there are incentives (or disincentives) for them to behave this way. There must be strict financial penalties that prevent employees at banks from working too many hours. A 29 year-old banker getting a $400,000 bonus is not going to tell his employer that he needs to leave the office by 7pm anymore than an aspiring Hollywood actress is going to tell her director that the crew must stop shooting because it is past her bedtime. In certain industries, where jobs are highly sought after and rewards are large, you cannot depend on workers to regulate themselves.

CurtMonash 11y ago

I was on Wall Street in the 1980s. Things weren't that bad yet. I was the only stock analyst in a department of ~50 who routinely pulled all-nighters, which was one of many reasons I was considered odd. There was only one guy who definitely flamed out on cocaine, and only a few others of whom debilitating substance abuse could even be reasonably suspected. And I'm pretty sure that investment banking wasn't all that much worse.

cm2187 11y ago

Junior doctors do similar hours, sleeping a couple of hours at the hospital when they can. What is absurd is that the long hours juniors do in investment banking are terribly inefficient. First because they spend them on tasks that could be automated or outsourced: compiling financials, formatting powerpoints (Microsoft shares a large part of responsability for their poor UI!). Second because the more tired they become, the less efficient they are at what they do. It is often the case that they would probably get the same done quicker by calling it a day at 9pm and coming back the next day with a fresh mind. But peer pressure prevents that. Third because even though they spend their time at the office they actually do not work continuously. Them staying late is more often than not because they were assigned something at 5pm with an unrealistic deadline. In this business managers usually disregard the implications of when in the day they give work or feedback. And I suspect it is often because they have been there, done that, as juniors, and have little sympathy for the juniors' time spent at the office. It's a kind of rite of passage.

FelixP 11y ago
Banker here. We actually have automated and outsourced quite a bit of the drudgery, although doing it within the framework of Excel and PowerPoint often requires some pretty strange contortions from a UI perspective.

greatthanks 11y ago

Live by greed, die by greed.

makecheck 11y ago

I knew someone doing corporate accounting who left at 6 in the morning for work, and almost always came home after midnight. 7 days a week (because who needs weekends, right?). Since the work cycled quarterly trying to get "the numbers", the only thing that resembled a break was the end of a quarter; and even then, this pathetic "break" was like a single day because they felt they had to get started on the next quarter. He actually told me that divorces were fairly common among his co-workers. I wonder why. He appeared to be paid well but (as others have noted) certainly not nearly enough when you divide a seemingly-impressive salary into an hourly rate. And frankly I think peer pressure was a big problem. All throughout the chain, it's like they're all too afraid to be the first to say "wtf is this?" and propose a sane work week. If I extrapolate this type of job to the number of large companies out there, I am astounded by the number of people whose lives are essentially ruined by quarter-to-quarter. It's garbage. Decades ago companies did not seem so pressured to show results each quarter or come up with insane ways to avoid taxes; they just pursued a reasonable profit.