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The researchers at PARC needed lots of money. For example, they built the Alto. They then used the Alto as a tool to design lots of other great things. A produ

The researchers at PARC needed lots of money. For example, they built the Alto. They then used the Alto as a tool to design lots of other great things. A product like the Alto doesn't get done by a few hipsters subsisting on "basic income". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_alto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_alto

rjsw 11y ago
Building an Alto then required lots of money, you can prototype fairly complicated things now on a cheap FPGA.
- PhantomGremlin 11y ago
  Yes. Of course. But, to quote Wayne Gretzky: I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been. You can build today's complicated things cheaply. But if you really want to achieve a quantum leap you need to think 10 years out. It is not cheap to build today the prototypes of things that will be desirable in 10 years. That is what Xerox PARC was doing. It is tempting to look at an FPGA and say that it only costs $10. Or maybe even $1000 for the top end. But that's the tip of the iceberg. Designs that go into a high end FPGA could easily require 10 man-years of engineering time. That's for a single FPGA hardware design itself, not the system it goes into, not the associated software. Once you need to do those sorts of things you won't find the right people by recruiting basic income hipsters that are lounging around at your local Starbucks. And you will need money to pay the considerable non-salary expenses, even if you could convince all the people to work for nothing but equity. Right now, it's relatively cheap to do software-only things. Which explains why there are so many of those sorts of startups. But it's not cheap to design and build physical things.
  - rjsw 11y ago
    I was sufficiently good at building stuff in FPGAs and writing the software to use it that I don't need to work anymore. I see the kind of decisions that I need to make now on what projects to work on as the same as those that would need to be made by creative people receiving basic income. People seem happy to donate to Kickstarter projects, the amounts needed would be smaller if the participants already had enough to live on.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  You are missing the point. What would be the Alto of today designed with hardware from 2030, not with a cheap FPGA from 2015?
  - rjsw 11y ago
    I don't think I am missing the point. The Alto hardware was fairly simple, most stuff was done in software. What do you want to build today that is too expensive to try out ?
    - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
      What do you want to build today that is too expensive to try out ? That, as they say, is the $64,000 dollar question. I sure don't know. I'm not creative enough. Do you know? My intuition is that there is about 0.01% of the population that is visionary enough to properly answer that question.
      - rjsw 11y ago
        Maybe the real question is how your 0.01% can find each other in order to discuss ideas. From what I have read, the people at PARC got there by similar routes, there was one group from SDS and another from Evans & Sutherland. I'm not sure we still have the same kind of "landmarks" that will attract the right people.
        miguelrochefort 11y ago
        > Maybe the real question is how your 0.01% can find each other in order to discuss ideas. I'm one of that 0.01%. I encourage others to contact me to get the discussion going.
      - corysama 11y ago
        > That, as they say, is the $64,000 question. You are more right than you think. The initial manufacturing cost of an Alto (adjusted for inflation) was... http://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=12000+dollars+from+1973&x=0&y=0 http://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=12000+dollars+from+1973&x...

rjsw 11y ago

Building an Alto then required lots of money, you can prototype fairly complicated things now on a cheap FPGA.

PhantomGremlin 11y ago
Yes. Of course. But, to quote Wayne Gretzky: I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been. You can build today's complicated things cheaply. But if you really want to achieve a quantum leap you need to think 10 years out. It is not cheap to build today the prototypes of things that will be desirable in 10 years. That is what Xerox PARC was doing. It is tempting to look at an FPGA and say that it only costs $10. Or maybe even $1000 for the top end. But that's the tip of the iceberg. Designs that go into a high end FPGA could easily require 10 man-years of engineering time. That's for a single FPGA hardware design itself, not the system it goes into, not the associated software. Once you need to do those sorts of things you won't find the right people by recruiting basic income hipsters that are lounging around at your local Starbucks. And you will need money to pay the considerable non-salary expenses, even if you could convince all the people to work for nothing but equity. Right now, it's relatively cheap to do software-only things. Which explains why there are so many of those sorts of startups. But it's not cheap to design and build physical things.
- rjsw 11y ago
  I was sufficiently good at building stuff in FPGAs and writing the software to use it that I don't need to work anymore. I see the kind of decisions that I need to make now on what projects to work on as the same as those that would need to be made by creative people receiving basic income. People seem happy to donate to Kickstarter projects, the amounts needed would be smaller if the participants already had enough to live on.
pjmlp 11y ago
You are missing the point. What would be the Alto of today designed with hardware from 2030, not with a cheap FPGA from 2015?
- rjsw 11y ago
  I don't think I am missing the point. The Alto hardware was fairly simple, most stuff was done in software. What do you want to build today that is too expensive to try out ?
  - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
    What do you want to build today that is too expensive to try out ? That, as they say, is the $64,000 dollar question. I sure don't know. I'm not creative enough. Do you know? My intuition is that there is about 0.01% of the population that is visionary enough to properly answer that question.
    - rjsw 11y ago
      Maybe the real question is how your 0.01% can find each other in order to discuss ideas. From what I have read, the people at PARC got there by similar routes, there was one group from SDS and another from Evans & Sutherland. I'm not sure we still have the same kind of "landmarks" that will attract the right people.
      - miguelrochefort 11y ago
        > Maybe the real question is how your 0.01% can find each other in order to discuss ideas. I'm one of that 0.01%. I encourage others to contact me to get the discussion going.
    - corysama 11y ago
      > That, as they say, is the $64,000 question. You are more right than you think. The initial manufacturing cost of an Alto (adjusted for inflation) was... http://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=12000+dollars+from+1973&x=0&y=0 http://m.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=12000+dollars+from+1973&x...