4 ms·

I think we all should agree that this is the same for every car manufacturer (except electric). Sure, european manufacturers are the target now, but i expect sa

by axx 11y ago

I think we all should agree that this is the same for every car manufacturer (except electric). Sure, european manufacturers are the target now, but i expect same results from all other manufacturers (including asian and american). Lab results never represent real street results. How could they? People drive differently and the outcome is based on many aspects that you can't reproduce in lab conditions.

eterm 11y ago
You are obfuscating the issue here. The issue isn't that we can't "represent real street results", the issue is that manufacturers took deliberate steps to alter car behaviour with the intention of obtaining better test results than would be present outside the tests.
- knowaveragejoe 11y ago
  But the results they're aiming for are ostensibly based on some measure that represents "real street" results. Otherwise, why the hell do we have these measures in the first place?
- axx 11y ago
  And that's a surprise to whom? It's the same with smartphone and notebook batteries. Tell me, when was the last time, you actually got 9 hours of battery live (in case of a MBP)? Don't get me wrong, i see it the same way as you are, but this is an issue that you can find everywhere not just in car manufacturing. For example, a lot of power supply companies try all kinds of tricks to game the efficiency test systems.
  - quesera 11y ago
    In fairness, Apple typically understates battery life in marketing materials. Most new-model reviews show that clearly. And, if you got a bad battery that doesn't live up, they'll replace it at no charge. Battery life declines with age, however.
  - simias 11y ago
    The consequences are different however, increased pollution has far reaching consequences, first of all human health. If my neighbour's smartphone has a shorter battery life it doesn't concern me, however if their car (and the cars of million of people around me) pollute more it's definitely my problem.
    - cujo 11y ago
      All these little things add up though. Every device that gets less battery life than expected is taking more power to run. That power likely comes from a non-clean source. Given, it's not on the scale of the automobiles, but dismissing it outright may be a mistake.
  - pcr0 11y ago
    MBP battery issue is a bit complicated, especially when discrete graphics is present due to switching issues with their in-house solution (no Nvidia Optimus for OS X). MBAs on the hand, I've seen them go past 13 hours easily (~1 year old, WiFi off, low-med brightness, editing documents).
  - takeda 11y ago
    Perhaps you did not read the article and responding to the title. The article points out that 1/3 of improvement in past 3 years to meet regulation requirements was real improvement and 2/3 was just manipulation. It doesn't matter that people drive cars differently than they are tested in cars, to illustrate it they highlighted that due to those manipulations that difference now can be as high as 50% which is beyond claims that people drive cars differently than when they are tested in labs.
cLeEOGPw 11y ago
> except electric Why? You have just been shown corporate cheat on tests. Why you would ever assume this has something to do with fuel type? I expect Tesla cheat as much as MB or BMW in their "range" test. And if you believe otherwise you are just someone who doesn't learn from his experience.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Tesla have, on a couple of occasions, experienced the opposite: a journalist does a range test and falsifies the result downwards by unrealistic driving conditions. On one occasion they used the car's telemetry to disprove the review. Top Gear got complaints for doing the same thing to (I think) a Leaf.
  - ams6110 11y ago
    Top Gear did it with a Tesla Roadster. But really, Tesla develop cars with high performance characteristics, and then people complain about "unrealistic driving conditions" when people drive them as they are designed? Tesla could easily program the cars to accelerate moderately and with maximum energy efficiency, but they would't be able to command $80,000 price tags if they did that. People who spend Tesla, Mercedes, or BMW money on a car, by and large, don't give a shit about economy.
- Bud 11y ago
  You "expect"? Could you perhaps cite any data, any at all? It's not like we don't have a LOT of Tesla owners out there who are obsessively testing this, every day. Do you think they're just all part of the conspiracy?
  - yoz-y 11y ago
    It is kind of weird that this is surfacing just now. There are magnitudes more VW owners than Tesla. Why have not the consumer studies revealed this a long time ago?
    - 11y ago

by axx 11y ago

eterm 11y ago

You are obfuscating the issue here. The issue isn't that we can't "represent real street results", the issue is that manufacturers took deliberate steps to alter car behaviour with the intention of obtaining better test results than would be present outside the tests.

knowaveragejoe 11y ago
But the results they're aiming for are ostensibly based on some measure that represents "real street" results. Otherwise, why the hell do we have these measures in the first place?
axx 11y ago
And that's a surprise to whom? It's the same with smartphone and notebook batteries. Tell me, when was the last time, you actually got 9 hours of battery live (in case of a MBP)? Don't get me wrong, i see it the same way as you are, but this is an issue that you can find everywhere not just in car manufacturing. For example, a lot of power supply companies try all kinds of tricks to game the efficiency test systems.
- quesera 11y ago
  In fairness, Apple typically understates battery life in marketing materials. Most new-model reviews show that clearly. And, if you got a bad battery that doesn't live up, they'll replace it at no charge. Battery life declines with age, however.
- simias 11y ago
  The consequences are different however, increased pollution has far reaching consequences, first of all human health. If my neighbour's smartphone has a shorter battery life it doesn't concern me, however if their car (and the cars of million of people around me) pollute more it's definitely my problem.
  - cujo 11y ago
    All these little things add up though. Every device that gets less battery life than expected is taking more power to run. That power likely comes from a non-clean source. Given, it's not on the scale of the automobiles, but dismissing it outright may be a mistake.
- pcr0 11y ago
  MBP battery issue is a bit complicated, especially when discrete graphics is present due to switching issues with their in-house solution (no Nvidia Optimus for OS X). MBAs on the hand, I've seen them go past 13 hours easily (~1 year old, WiFi off, low-med brightness, editing documents).
- takeda 11y ago
  Perhaps you did not read the article and responding to the title. The article points out that 1/3 of improvement in past 3 years to meet regulation requirements was real improvement and 2/3 was just manipulation. It doesn't matter that people drive cars differently than they are tested in cars, to illustrate it they highlighted that due to those manipulations that difference now can be as high as 50% which is beyond claims that people drive cars differently than when they are tested in labs.

cLeEOGPw 11y ago

> except electric Why? You have just been shown corporate cheat on tests. Why you would ever assume this has something to do with fuel type? I expect Tesla cheat as much as MB or BMW in their "range" test. And if you believe otherwise you are just someone who doesn't learn from his experience.

pjc50 11y ago
Tesla have, on a couple of occasions, experienced the opposite: a journalist does a range test and falsifies the result downwards by unrealistic driving conditions. On one occasion they used the car's telemetry to disprove the review. Top Gear got complaints for doing the same thing to (I think) a Leaf.
- ams6110 11y ago
  Top Gear did it with a Tesla Roadster. But really, Tesla develop cars with high performance characteristics, and then people complain about "unrealistic driving conditions" when people drive them as they are designed? Tesla could easily program the cars to accelerate moderately and with maximum energy efficiency, but they would't be able to command $80,000 price tags if they did that. People who spend Tesla, Mercedes, or BMW money on a car, by and large, don't give a shit about economy.
Bud 11y ago
You "expect"? Could you perhaps cite any data, any at all? It's not like we don't have a LOT of Tesla owners out there who are obsessively testing this, every day. Do you think they're just all part of the conspiracy?
- yoz-y 11y ago
  It is kind of weird that this is surfacing just now. There are magnitudes more VW owners than Tesla. Why have not the consumer studies revealed this a long time ago?
  - 11y ago