6 ms·

Whence function notation?

47 points by djmylt 11y ago

derefr 11y ago
Reminds me: is there a name for the particular lexical operator "f(x)" of (what is apparently) Euler's notation, in the way that the syntactic operator "(f x)" is usually referred to as a reduction, and "f x" as a juxtaposition? I'm aware that the semantic meaning of "f(x)" in most languages is function application—but I want to know what term I should use when, say, talking about how I wish in Ruby you could do "f(x)" with Procs, but are stuck instead with "f[x]".
- jordigh 11y ago
  I don't think so. Mathematicians don't think of "f(x)" as evaluation or application, but as the value of the function f at x. The "at" is very important, because we generally deal with numerical functions that have well-defined geometric graphs, and even for other functions, we retain the graphical metaphors even if they may not apply anymore. We don't generally think of "f(x)" as a computation is what I mean. We discuss functions all the time whose values we agree will exist but cannot be computed (for example, a choice function that we obtained via the axiom of choice). We also don't generally pass functions around to other functions, and we don't care about syntax that much. After all, we are not computers, so we are quite comfortable changing syntax around according to habit and custom, even happily using ambiguous syntax when we think that our readers can figure out what we mean. So, no. We don't have a common name for it because it's not an important distinction for us.
javajosh 11y ago
There is a certain pleasing physicality to function notion, in the sense that empty parens make a circle into which you put things. () -> (1). Look, I put a 1 in there! f(x) is a notation that is strictly speaking only good for the author of f because they know how to access their independent data; any utility to the caller, by inferring what "x" should be, is purely conventional/accidental. Function notion in this sense mirrors our counting system, which begins with an empty circle, 0, which we replace with a succession of symbols, until we hit 9, and then 10. It's interesting to imagine what "10" means if you're treating each symbol as a function. But this requires defining some sort of analog to "counting" with functions, which I'm not sure makes much sense in any general way. What is the "successor" to a function? It seems that we have a lot of options. One simple example would be to let f return a function based on an integer input, with the understanding that this is a simple function from 0-9 but then at 10 we return the composition of f_1 and f_0. In this way we describe the composition of 9 functions in any order using only a natural number. Anyway, back to writing CRUD webapps.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  > There is a certain pleasing physicality to function notion, in the sense that empty parens make a circle into which you put things. () -> (1). Look, I put a 1 in there! This gets dropped as you go further in math, though. Take the function that reflects across the x,y plane, f(x,y,z) = (x,y,-z). Interpreting the notation your way, you'd want to write f((x,y,z)) = (x,y,-z), but that isn't done.
  - taeric 11y ago
    Doesn't matter. Often affordances are only relevant to get you thinking at the start. Once a concept is fully established, the affordance no longer matters. Consider the use of a disk to indicate that something can be saved. The fact that you no longer save to disk is ultimately irrelevant.
  - javajosh 11y ago
    I didn't talk about how to implement (or represent) the body of the function! And besides, Church seemed to like single arguments, so actually he would write something like that. :) Physicists wouldn't (my degree is in physics). Programmers would write f(x,y,z){return {x,y,-z};}. But actually, I would say that this is nasty because of asymmetry - it can't consume it's own output. f(p){return {p.x,p.y,-p.z}} where p = {x,y,z}
tel 11y ago
I always feel like `f(a)` invokes the idea that `f` is a value dependent on some `a` where notations like `(f a)` and `f a` are more indicative of the idea that `f` is a thing which has the operation of application to `a`. This makes sense mathematically as it's taken a long time for people to come around to thinking of functions as things in their own right. Dependent quantities are a more historical notion to my understanding.
mkehrt 11y ago
As someone who has done a lot of work with ML and the lambda calculus, having to put parentheses around my arguments in most programming languages drives me crazy. It feels so heavyweight. Function argument parens are particularly weird when dealing with curried arguments. `f x y z` is so much nicer than `f(x)(y)(z)`.
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Naw. I hate using whitespace for function application. Having a binary operation that's neither associative nor parenthesized is super confusing to newbies. a+b+c = (a+b)+c = a+(b+c) // Good! f a b = (f a) b != f (a b) // WTF? BTW, that's also a good rule of thumb for defining new operators. If your new op ~-^-~ is not associative, don't make it an op!! And even if it is, consider that users won't magically know the relative precedence of your op versus someone else's =^%^=. Looking at you, Haskell.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    You provide: a+b+c = (a+b)+c = a+(b+c) // Good! f a b = (f a) b != f (a b) // WTF? So, I suppose, also: a/b/c = (a/b)/c != a/(b/c) // WTF? > BTW, that's also a good rule of thumb for defining new operators. If your new op ~-^-~ is not associative, don't make it an op!! Why should associativity be a requirement for a new op? Its not universal among common standard binary operators, after all (particularly division and exponentiation are not associative.)
    - cousin_it 11y ago
      I said either associative or parenthesized. People don't write a/b/c because they had 10 years of learning to use parens in arithmetic, but they write f a b all the time. For the same reason, my rule of thumb applies only to operators that you define. The non-associativity of exponentiation does throw people off sometimes. Not all college students will correctly parse 2^2^2. IMO it's a wart in math notation. It could've been easily avoided by e.g. drawing a box around the exponent, so stacked exponentials would have boxes nesting upward.
jordigh 11y ago
In group theory exponential notation such as x^f (picture a superscript, like x<sup>f</sup>) or composing on the right (x)f are not altogether uncommon. It's particulary convenient for homomorphisms or the action of a group on a set. Some category theorists of the mathematical kind, not the computer science kind, (i.e the kind that cares most deeply about homological algebra) also like to compose on the right, so that you can write function composition in the order that you diagram-chase.
mtdewcmu 11y ago
I found some more background here[1]. It's not clear (to me, at least) whether Euler would have employed parentheses in that case if they hadn't been necessary to avoid ambiguity, i.e. if the argument had been x, he might have just written fx. [1] http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/636332/the-origin-of-the-function-fx-notation http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/636332/the-origin-of...

47 points by djmylt 11y ago

Reminds me: is there a name for the particular lexical operator "f(x)" of (what is apparently) Euler's notation, in the way that the syntactic operator "(f x)" is usually referred to as a reduction, and "f x" as a juxtaposition? I'm aware that the semantic meaning of "f(x)" in most languages is function application—but I want to know what term I should use when, say, talking about how I wish in Ruby you could do "f(x)" with Procs, but are stuck instead with "f[x]".

jordigh 11y ago
I don't think so. Mathematicians don't think of "f(x)" as evaluation or application, but as the value of the function f at x. The "at" is very important, because we generally deal with numerical functions that have well-defined geometric graphs, and even for other functions, we retain the graphical metaphors even if they may not apply anymore. We don't generally think of "f(x)" as a computation is what I mean. We discuss functions all the time whose values we agree will exist but cannot be computed (for example, a choice function that we obtained via the axiom of choice). We also don't generally pass functions around to other functions, and we don't care about syntax that much. After all, we are not computers, so we are quite comfortable changing syntax around according to habit and custom, even happily using ambiguous syntax when we think that our readers can figure out what we mean. So, no. We don't have a common name for it because it's not an important distinction for us.

javajosh 11y ago

There is a certain pleasing physicality to function notion, in the sense that empty parens make a circle into which you put things. () -> (1). Look, I put a 1 in there! f(x) is a notation that is strictly speaking only good for the author of f because they know how to access their independent data; any utility to the caller, by inferring what "x" should be, is purely conventional/accidental. Function notion in this sense mirrors our counting system, which begins with an empty circle, 0, which we replace with a succession of symbols, until we hit 9, and then 10. It's interesting to imagine what "10" means if you're treating each symbol as a function. But this requires defining some sort of analog to "counting" with functions, which I'm not sure makes much sense in any general way. What is the "successor" to a function? It seems that we have a lot of options. One simple example would be to let f return a function based on an integer input, with the understanding that this is a simple function from 0-9 but then at 10 we return the composition of f_1 and f_0. In this way we describe the composition of 9 functions in any order using only a natural number. Anyway, back to writing CRUD webapps.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
> There is a certain pleasing physicality to function notion, in the sense that empty parens make a circle into which you put things. () -> (1). Look, I put a 1 in there! This gets dropped as you go further in math, though. Take the function that reflects across the x,y plane, f(x,y,z) = (x,y,-z). Interpreting the notation your way, you'd want to write f((x,y,z)) = (x,y,-z), but that isn't done.
- taeric 11y ago
  Doesn't matter. Often affordances are only relevant to get you thinking at the start. Once a concept is fully established, the affordance no longer matters. Consider the use of a disk to indicate that something can be saved. The fact that you no longer save to disk is ultimately irrelevant.
- javajosh 11y ago
  I didn't talk about how to implement (or represent) the body of the function! And besides, Church seemed to like single arguments, so actually he would write something like that. :) Physicists wouldn't (my degree is in physics). Programmers would write f(x,y,z){return {x,y,-z};}. But actually, I would say that this is nasty because of asymmetry - it can't consume it's own output. f(p){return {p.x,p.y,-p.z}} where p = {x,y,z}

tel 11y ago

I always feel like `f(a)` invokes the idea that `f` is a value dependent on some `a` where notations like `(f a)` and `f a` are more indicative of the idea that `f` is a thing which has the operation of application to `a`. This makes sense mathematically as it's taken a long time for people to come around to thinking of functions as things in their own right. Dependent quantities are a more historical notion to my understanding.

mkehrt 11y ago

As someone who has done a lot of work with ML and the lambda calculus, having to put parentheses around my arguments in most programming languages drives me crazy. It feels so heavyweight. Function argument parens are particularly weird when dealing with curried arguments. `f x y z` is so much nicer than `f(x)(y)(z)`.

cousin_it 11y ago
Naw. I hate using whitespace for function application. Having a binary operation that's neither associative nor parenthesized is super confusing to newbies. a+b+c = (a+b)+c = a+(b+c) // Good! f a b = (f a) b != f (a b) // WTF? BTW, that's also a good rule of thumb for defining new operators. If your new op ~-^-~ is not associative, don't make it an op!! And even if it is, consider that users won't magically know the relative precedence of your op versus someone else's =^%^=. Looking at you, Haskell.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  You provide: a+b+c = (a+b)+c = a+(b+c) // Good! f a b = (f a) b != f (a b) // WTF? So, I suppose, also: a/b/c = (a/b)/c != a/(b/c) // WTF? > BTW, that's also a good rule of thumb for defining new operators. If your new op ~-^-~ is not associative, don't make it an op!! Why should associativity be a requirement for a new op? Its not universal among common standard binary operators, after all (particularly division and exponentiation are not associative.)
  - cousin_it 11y ago
    I said either associative or parenthesized. People don't write a/b/c because they had 10 years of learning to use parens in arithmetic, but they write f a b all the time. For the same reason, my rule of thumb applies only to operators that you define. The non-associativity of exponentiation does throw people off sometimes. Not all college students will correctly parse 2^2^2. IMO it's a wart in math notation. It could've been easily avoided by e.g. drawing a box around the exponent, so stacked exponentials would have boxes nesting upward.

jordigh 11y ago

In group theory exponential notation such as x^f (picture a superscript, like x<sup>f</sup>) or composing on the right (x)f are not altogether uncommon. It's particulary convenient for homomorphisms or the action of a group on a set. Some category theorists of the mathematical kind, not the computer science kind, (i.e the kind that cares most deeply about homological algebra) also like to compose on the right, so that you can write function composition in the order that you diagram-chase.

mtdewcmu 11y ago

I found some more background here[1]. It's not clear (to me, at least) whether Euler would have employed parentheses in that case if they hadn't been necessary to avoid ambiguity, i.e. if the argument had been x, he might have just written fx. [1] http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/636332/the-origin-of-the-function-fx-notation http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/636332/the-origin-of...