9 ms·

Thinking back to my own middle/high school experiences, group work just gives the poor students a free pass to slack off, because they know the good students in

by csense 11y ago

Thinking back to my own middle/high school experiences, group work just gives the poor students a free pass to slack off, because they know the good students in their group will pick up the slack. I usually worked alone if the option was available, because if I worked in a group I'd almost always end up having to do / re-do everyone else's sub-par work anyway. It was the same workload either way, but working in a group would essentially be giving others "counterfeit" grades (based on my effort, not theirs), the existence of which necessarily devalues my "genuine" grade.

smelendez 11y ago
This seems like such a universal experience, and looking back on it, teachers obviously know it's going on. I wonder how much their plans to train kids for the "real world" are shaped by working in such unusual environments themselves. I've never had a job where my performance is judged based on how a random group of teenagers I've been assigned to does on a project, but teachers certainly have.
- gohrt 11y ago
  Many professionals in the real world work in team environments where they depend on each other, and you can't just ignore your teammates bad work. This is certainly true in all but the smallest software shops.
  - verbin217 11y ago
    Right but the usually accepted answer is not: I just give them bullshit to do or otherwise plan on having time to do their work if/when they don't do it sufficiently. That's the right answer. We just don't like it because it condemns people. We really need basic income so we can start being more ruthless about this. Honestly I think it could save some of these people from a downward spiral of bullshitting. They're just scared and we all know they have good reason to be so we give them a pass.
  - gozo 11y ago
    In my experience it's even more important in small software shops because you're going to be good at different things and there's no room for ego.
thetrb 11y ago
On the one hand I agree but on the other hand I think group work is an important skill to learn. This will be almost always necessary in a work environment. I think a good compromise is to require each team member to be responsible for an identified part of the group work so that the teacher can adequately grade each individual.
- maerF0x0 11y ago
  At that point you're not doing group work. You're doing individual work with differing assignments. Group work is the reality of the world. You can be the best and your company can fail because of crappy peers. Speak up, lead them to greatness and give them the boot (ie, tell the teacher) if they're hopeless.
vvpan 11y ago
Well, it sounds like it prepares you for adult life where this is a norm.
silvestrov 11y ago
Group work can work, but it needs a different setting. I studied at an university where half of the time was group work and it worked because: The students had 100% authority over how groups are formed, i.e. number of groups and who are in which group. The teachers had nothing to say in this. The result is that: 1) it quickly became common knowledge who the slackers were (and who were the opposite). 2) nobody wanted to have the slackers in their group, so they were kind of ostracized and had to make their own group. They often ended up with the bad marks they deserve. 3) everybody learned that you had to do your homework/groupwork if you wanted to be part of a good group. It became a lot more difficult to get away with lame excuses for not having done what you promised. People really worked hard. 3b) If a group member didn't do their work, the other members could exclude the person from the group, and that person then had to make a project on their own, which is really really difficult. Again, the teachers had nothing to say in this, they could not veto an exclusion. 4) you ended up with a notion that your reputation had important consequences, just like in real life. Introverted people who did great work were popular group members. 5) Bonus: you learned to value different skills in people. Instead of wanting to be around people exactly like yourself, you learned that people who are (and think) different are very valuable for good projects.
- stevesearer 11y ago
  That sounds like it definitely works in the university setting you're describing, and sounds like the same type of thing that would have happened in the middle school setting I used to work in. The unfortunate thing in both settings is that the slackers always get bad marks. This is especially bad for a 7th grader when poor school performance can have little to do with the student's actual skills and a lot to do with their home life and/or parental involvement.
  - morgante 11y ago
    I don't think you could possibly design a mixed-skill education model where slackers don't get bad marks. If slackers get good marks, marks are meaningless.
    - 11y ago
anigbrowl 11y ago
Of course, another way to look at this is that the assignment is not really about the work product but about developing co-working skills, as well as giving weaker students an opportunity to learn from their peers rather than an adult, which is often more effective. At least, it could be....but in the hands of a less-thoughtful teacher, it could easily turn into trickle-down education as you describe.
crpatino 11y ago
Until the nerds learn that they don't need to ace in every assignment to get a passing grade. I confess having being delighted of get a failing grade on purpose, with the full knowledge that I but not my peers was able to take the hit. Later I have met others who came to the same basic conclusion, though they were much more constructive and assertive when dealing with the situation.
engi_nerd 11y ago
This is the reason (at least, I think this is the reason) why I bombed my first serious job interview, with United Launch Alliance. Things were going great until they asked me if I preferred working alone or in teams. From memory (it's been a long while) this is how the conversation went: Interviewer: "Do you like working in teams?" "If the people I'm working with are smart and motivated, I'm fine working in teams. Otherwise I'd like to mostly work alone." Interviewer: "You mean you don't like working with other people?" "No, that's not what I said. What I mean is that my experiences in working with teams have been mostly negative because other people don't pull their weight. The few times I have been in a good team I've really enjoyed it." Interviewer: "Okay, moving on..." And a rejection email was waiting in my inbox before I even got off the plane that night. I learned after that to just say, "I love working in teams, especially when I'm working with people more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I'm also a great self-starter and I'm self-motivated, so I'm also comfortable working solo if you need me to do that." Which is much the same sentiment, but phrased in a way that people seem to take better.
- LordKano 11y ago
  I absolutely hate that we have to play the game but I suppose that there's some benefit in weeding out the people who can't. "Yes, I enjoy leveraging the different experience that each member brings to the team. When we combine a group of highly motivated and knowledgeable individuals, we can achieve a high degree of success...synergy...paradigm...core competencies"
  - engi_nerd 11y ago
    Yeah. Reflecting back on that interview process was very informative for me. I am glad I went on that interview because this was a very valuable lesson.
- hugh4 11y ago
  You know the expression "if you meet jerks all day then you're the jerk?" That's what would go through my mind if someone complained about their previous team members in a job interview.
justifier 11y ago
this competitive view of education is another unfortunate consequence of what i identify as a broken educational system i think its worth while to ask who who incites this competition with grades? what are your concerns with 'counterfeit' versus 'genuine' grades? i am more upset that another generation can get through school with, hard won, perfect grades and still be unaware of what a transformer is and how it works
- verbin217 11y ago
  Everyone knows what transformers are. And that they're powered by the Allspark. I think you're just jaded.
igorgue 11y ago
On the other hand, I'm not saying you're like this, but a lot of kids who are brilliant are incapable of working in groups, and that's pretty much what you have to do in real life. Also, growing up, I would not allow that in my group there could be a slacker... report him / her, be a snitch, I didn't care, actually, what I did was help them so they can become better and do the homework. But I didn't grow up in America where the smart kids just do the dumb kids homework because they're afraid of getting bullied, in fact, I learned about the concept up until I moved in here.
- vjoshi 11y ago
  100% agree. I think you're right. When it comes to anyone, from any background or person they need to be able to work in a social environment. My manager is super sharp/super smart, can teach me to save his life. But tough love I feel isn't always needed. Yeah the shock will stay with them but there are also more effective ways. I don't think stick on hand techniques are the way to go (metaphor here) and generally societies and communities are evolving passed that. Granted, sometimes there really is no other choice!
benihana 11y ago
I hated group work for the opposite reason: there was always some ass who thought their work and ideas were superior and they didn't let anyone else provide any input. They'd often just re-do the work I did because I didn't do it the way they demanded I do it. I eventually just stopped even bothering cause it seemed like they weren't so much interested in the quality as in having complete control over everything.
- draw_down 11y ago
  Man, I wish I would have come across such a person, I'd have let them have their way. Instead it was always a bunch of flakes clearly looking to do as little as possible.
vjoshi 11y ago
I went through phases in school, partially driven I believe by the fact I was suffering from dyslexia but didn't know it (given I made it to graduation with good enough grades from a very decent uni, I wasn't diagnosed until 25. Sadly late diagnoses is a bit more common then you think) However as some people may appreciate, particularly during exam times, I became extremely introverted. Friends noticed a difference in my attitude and some felt I had issues with them so stopped talking to me. This is was not the case from my side and I tried to explain. Teachers thought I was "slacking" in class as I wouldn't participate as much given we were asked to do quite a bit of reading and it meant that in group work, whilst I was vocal, my work was slow. From these experiences I learnt something. The way I look at the world and interpret situations and experiences when I went through months and sometimes a good year of being like this was extremely different to when I was confident and out going. Fair enough mine personality drift was triggered by my dyslexia, different people can have different triggers. The outcome is similar. Introverts are extremely affective influencers in chaotic scenarios, they are known, particularly in Asia due to their more low key and effective nurturing techniques to be powerful leaders. They have been on the receiving end of criticism more than most people and have learnt in hindsight what could have made them tick and let's be honest, in this day and age of everyone being encouraged to speak their mind, people stand out from the crowd if they have a knack for building up others and are committed to listening instead of talking. This idea is a strength of an introvert. However, these strengths take a while to come into play as to be able to recognise them as strengths within yourself requires confidence and that takes a ridiculous amount of time to attain yourself for someone who is introverted. One is only really taught to appreciate and how to harness the strengths of different personalities at business school or the working environment through various negotiation/project management or graduate workshops. The school system lacks high quality teachers who can bring these strengths out of their introverted students at younger age. Fact is, there is no doubt a negative correlation between the more students who are built up and those who become depressed or bullied. Group work could be even more better with their input and a lot of the time so would group dynamic. Sharing my two pennies worth...
Steuard 11y ago
A colleague of mine described a method for assigning groups that I'd never considered, but that she says worked surprisingly well. On the first day of class, she gave out a survey, and one question was "How many hours do you expect to spend working on this class each week?" She assigned students to groups who gave similar answers. The self-described hard workers were delighted to be together, and the folks who were hoping to coast pretty quickly realized that nobody else in their group was going to just take over and do it all, so they reluctantly buckled down, too.
verinus 11y ago
I think the focus of group works in education is not to get real work done but to learn about teamwork and leadership. In real live you can't choose your team and in my experience the motivation and knowledge of the participants may vary significantly. good management is when everybody motivated is assigned a productive work and really stubborn cases cut loose. the latter beeing very difficult from my experience...

by csense 11y ago

smelendez 11y ago

This seems like such a universal experience, and looking back on it, teachers obviously know it's going on. I wonder how much their plans to train kids for the "real world" are shaped by working in such unusual environments themselves. I've never had a job where my performance is judged based on how a random group of teenagers I've been assigned to does on a project, but teachers certainly have.

gohrt 11y ago
Many professionals in the real world work in team environments where they depend on each other, and you can't just ignore your teammates bad work. This is certainly true in all but the smallest software shops.
- verbin217 11y ago
  Right but the usually accepted answer is not: I just give them bullshit to do or otherwise plan on having time to do their work if/when they don't do it sufficiently. That's the right answer. We just don't like it because it condemns people. We really need basic income so we can start being more ruthless about this. Honestly I think it could save some of these people from a downward spiral of bullshitting. They're just scared and we all know they have good reason to be so we give them a pass.
- gozo 11y ago
  In my experience it's even more important in small software shops because you're going to be good at different things and there's no room for ego.

thetrb 11y ago

On the one hand I agree but on the other hand I think group work is an important skill to learn. This will be almost always necessary in a work environment. I think a good compromise is to require each team member to be responsible for an identified part of the group work so that the teacher can adequately grade each individual.

maerF0x0 11y ago
At that point you're not doing group work. You're doing individual work with differing assignments. Group work is the reality of the world. You can be the best and your company can fail because of crappy peers. Speak up, lead them to greatness and give them the boot (ie, tell the teacher) if they're hopeless.

vvpan 11y ago

Well, it sounds like it prepares you for adult life where this is a norm.

silvestrov 11y ago

Group work can work, but it needs a different setting. I studied at an university where half of the time was group work and it worked because: The students had 100% authority over how groups are formed, i.e. number of groups and who are in which group. The teachers had nothing to say in this. The result is that: 1) it quickly became common knowledge who the slackers were (and who were the opposite). 2) nobody wanted to have the slackers in their group, so they were kind of ostracized and had to make their own group. They often ended up with the bad marks they deserve. 3) everybody learned that you had to do your homework/groupwork if you wanted to be part of a good group. It became a lot more difficult to get away with lame excuses for not having done what you promised. People really worked hard. 3b) If a group member didn't do their work, the other members could exclude the person from the group, and that person then had to make a project on their own, which is really really difficult. Again, the teachers had nothing to say in this, they could not veto an exclusion. 4) you ended up with a notion that your reputation had important consequences, just like in real life. Introverted people who did great work were popular group members. 5) Bonus: you learned to value different skills in people. Instead of wanting to be around people exactly like yourself, you learned that people who are (and think) different are very valuable for good projects.

stevesearer 11y ago
That sounds like it definitely works in the university setting you're describing, and sounds like the same type of thing that would have happened in the middle school setting I used to work in. The unfortunate thing in both settings is that the slackers always get bad marks. This is especially bad for a 7th grader when poor school performance can have little to do with the student's actual skills and a lot to do with their home life and/or parental involvement.
- morgante 11y ago
  I don't think you could possibly design a mixed-skill education model where slackers don't get bad marks. If slackers get good marks, marks are meaningless.
  - 11y ago

anigbrowl 11y ago

Of course, another way to look at this is that the assignment is not really about the work product but about developing co-working skills, as well as giving weaker students an opportunity to learn from their peers rather than an adult, which is often more effective. At least, it could be....but in the hands of a less-thoughtful teacher, it could easily turn into trickle-down education as you describe.

crpatino 11y ago

Until the nerds learn that they don't need to ace in every assignment to get a passing grade. I confess having being delighted of get a failing grade on purpose, with the full knowledge that I but not my peers was able to take the hit. Later I have met others who came to the same basic conclusion, though they were much more constructive and assertive when dealing with the situation.

engi_nerd 11y ago

This is the reason (at least, I think this is the reason) why I bombed my first serious job interview, with United Launch Alliance. Things were going great until they asked me if I preferred working alone or in teams. From memory (it's been a long while) this is how the conversation went: Interviewer: "Do you like working in teams?" "If the people I'm working with are smart and motivated, I'm fine working in teams. Otherwise I'd like to mostly work alone." Interviewer: "You mean you don't like working with other people?" "No, that's not what I said. What I mean is that my experiences in working with teams have been mostly negative because other people don't pull their weight. The few times I have been in a good team I've really enjoyed it." Interviewer: "Okay, moving on..." And a rejection email was waiting in my inbox before I even got off the plane that night. I learned after that to just say, "I love working in teams, especially when I'm working with people more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I'm also a great self-starter and I'm self-motivated, so I'm also comfortable working solo if you need me to do that." Which is much the same sentiment, but phrased in a way that people seem to take better.

LordKano 11y ago
I absolutely hate that we have to play the game but I suppose that there's some benefit in weeding out the people who can't. "Yes, I enjoy leveraging the different experience that each member brings to the team. When we combine a group of highly motivated and knowledgeable individuals, we can achieve a high degree of success...synergy...paradigm...core competencies"
- engi_nerd 11y ago
  Yeah. Reflecting back on that interview process was very informative for me. I am glad I went on that interview because this was a very valuable lesson.
hugh4 11y ago
You know the expression "if you meet jerks all day then you're the jerk?" That's what would go through my mind if someone complained about their previous team members in a job interview.

justifier 11y ago

this competitive view of education is another unfortunate consequence of what i identify as a broken educational system i think its worth while to ask who who incites this competition with grades? what are your concerns with 'counterfeit' versus 'genuine' grades? i am more upset that another generation can get through school with, hard won, perfect grades and still be unaware of what a transformer is and how it works

verbin217 11y ago
Everyone knows what transformers are. And that they're powered by the Allspark. I think you're just jaded.

igorgue 11y ago

On the other hand, I'm not saying you're like this, but a lot of kids who are brilliant are incapable of working in groups, and that's pretty much what you have to do in real life. Also, growing up, I would not allow that in my group there could be a slacker... report him / her, be a snitch, I didn't care, actually, what I did was help them so they can become better and do the homework. But I didn't grow up in America where the smart kids just do the dumb kids homework because they're afraid of getting bullied, in fact, I learned about the concept up until I moved in here.

vjoshi 11y ago
100% agree. I think you're right. When it comes to anyone, from any background or person they need to be able to work in a social environment. My manager is super sharp/super smart, can teach me to save his life. But tough love I feel isn't always needed. Yeah the shock will stay with them but there are also more effective ways. I don't think stick on hand techniques are the way to go (metaphor here) and generally societies and communities are evolving passed that. Granted, sometimes there really is no other choice!

benihana 11y ago

I hated group work for the opposite reason: there was always some ass who thought their work and ideas were superior and they didn't let anyone else provide any input. They'd often just re-do the work I did because I didn't do it the way they demanded I do it. I eventually just stopped even bothering cause it seemed like they weren't so much interested in the quality as in having complete control over everything.

draw_down 11y ago
Man, I wish I would have come across such a person, I'd have let them have their way. Instead it was always a bunch of flakes clearly looking to do as little as possible.

vjoshi 11y ago

I went through phases in school, partially driven I believe by the fact I was suffering from dyslexia but didn't know it (given I made it to graduation with good enough grades from a very decent uni, I wasn't diagnosed until 25. Sadly late diagnoses is a bit more common then you think) However as some people may appreciate, particularly during exam times, I became extremely introverted. Friends noticed a difference in my attitude and some felt I had issues with them so stopped talking to me. This is was not the case from my side and I tried to explain. Teachers thought I was "slacking" in class as I wouldn't participate as much given we were asked to do quite a bit of reading and it meant that in group work, whilst I was vocal, my work was slow. From these experiences I learnt something. The way I look at the world and interpret situations and experiences when I went through months and sometimes a good year of being like this was extremely different to when I was confident and out going. Fair enough mine personality drift was triggered by my dyslexia, different people can have different triggers. The outcome is similar. Introverts are extremely affective influencers in chaotic scenarios, they are known, particularly in Asia due to their more low key and effective nurturing techniques to be powerful leaders. They have been on the receiving end of criticism more than most people and have learnt in hindsight what could have made them tick and let's be honest, in this day and age of everyone being encouraged to speak their mind, people stand out from the crowd if they have a knack for building up others and are committed to listening instead of talking. This idea is a strength of an introvert. However, these strengths take a while to come into play as to be able to recognise them as strengths within yourself requires confidence and that takes a ridiculous amount of time to attain yourself for someone who is introverted. One is only really taught to appreciate and how to harness the strengths of different personalities at business school or the working environment through various negotiation/project management or graduate workshops. The school system lacks high quality teachers who can bring these strengths out of their introverted students at younger age. Fact is, there is no doubt a negative correlation between the more students who are built up and those who become depressed or bullied. Group work could be even more better with their input and a lot of the time so would group dynamic. Sharing my two pennies worth...

Steuard 11y ago

A colleague of mine described a method for assigning groups that I'd never considered, but that she says worked surprisingly well. On the first day of class, she gave out a survey, and one question was "How many hours do you expect to spend working on this class each week?" She assigned students to groups who gave similar answers. The self-described hard workers were delighted to be together, and the folks who were hoping to coast pretty quickly realized that nobody else in their group was going to just take over and do it all, so they reluctantly buckled down, too.

verinus 11y ago

I think the focus of group works in education is not to get real work done but to learn about teamwork and leadership. In real live you can't choose your team and in my experience the motivation and knowledge of the participants may vary significantly. good management is when everybody motivated is assigned a productive work and really stubborn cases cut loose. the latter beeing very difficult from my experience...