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I'd say that most paradigms of grade school style learning overlook introverts by default. There's usually some sort of grade-based participation bonus for spea

I'd say that most paradigms of grade school style learning overlook introverts by default. There's usually some sort of grade-based participation bonus for speaking out and answering the teacher's questions as soon as they're posed. There's almost always group project components as well, in which introverts won't be able to shine as much. IMHO it's part of a larger system of not valuing introverts as a society. Being talkative gets people noticed, and being quiet gets people forgotten, and, as a result, neglected. I don't have any real solution to propose, just an observation that in most cases, introverts are worse off for their social disposition. Ambiverts are probably the best positioned for success, provided that they are able to play up their extraversion when around extroverts and play it down when around introverts.

maxxxxx 11y ago
I wonder if there will be a time when introverts are being viewed as a discriminated group. It's not OK to make disparaging remarks about people of certain races, sexual orientation and other groups but it seems to be OK to make negative remarks about introverted or shy people. When I hear about women having it difficult to make their way in tech professions I always remember how hard it was to be a shy teenager.
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Yeah, I'd say introversion can have debilitating/disabling downsides (especially for younger people, from my own experience), but also a few powerful upsides when it comes to information processing and focused cognition. I don't really identify with the accepted negative remarks against introverts, though. The closest I can comment on is the perpetual "why are you so antisocial" line from childhood through adulthood, which is simultaneously infuriating and isolating. Children and young adults that are introverted are almost always constantly cajoled frequently to "be more social", and, of course, it's to their detriment to be so frequently indirectly reminded that they are outsiders. Of course, introverts are almost always going to be at a disadvantage in social skills, popularity contests, job interviews, etc-- and these things are far more critical to "success" than mere skill or intelligence. I'd say introverts are also usually slightly worse at the skill of having grit, too-- frequently there's something about having to struggle alone that makes failures more final. I imagine there's some great works waiting to be written regarding the experience of introversion from the 1980s to the present. The current crop of hackers are probably the first who have seen society go from viewing them as "antisocial" to "cool nerds".
glenda 11y ago
Speaking in front of people and working in groups are extremely valuable skills, even for introverts. This is like saying that people who don't enjoy physical activity should skip P.E. class -- in both cases there is both a developmental and health component at play. I am extremely introverted, but have no problem speaking to groups of people or even working in groups. I've always felt that my voice has been heard and respected because when I do talk people know that I have definitely thought it through. However, there are always those people who expect you to act exactly as they do. The actual problem seems to be that kids aren't really taught to hold respect for one another. Because of that once you exhibit any kind of quirky behavior you become the target of joking/teasing and other forms of alienation that may only amplify your initial weirdness.
- anon4 11y ago
  Kids should be better taught how to work in groups, really. It unfortunately goes both ways - you need to teach some of them not to blindly pick on introverts and teach the introverts how to communicate with others, including the art of lying and deception.
  - verbin217 11y ago
    This. Some kids should definitely be put it special classes where they're taught to both deal with normal people and forgive them for their ways. If you don't spend much time deceiving people then you're far less able to detect lies. That or the subtle emotional manipulation demonstrated by any modern employer. It's an utterly essential skill in the "real world".
- zephyrfalcon 11y ago
  "Speaking in front of people and working in groups are extremely valuable skills, even for introverts." Yes -- and the problem is that very few places actually teach these skills to introverts. Rather, you are supposed to already know them. "This is like saying that people who don't enjoy physical activity should skip P.E. class -- in both cases there is both a developmental and health component at play." It's funny you should bring up PE here, because the same mechanism is usually at play there. PE classes don't focus on the kids who are bad at sports. They focus on those who are already good at it, for whatever reason.
zeveb 11y ago
> IMHO it's part of a larger system of not valuing introverts as a society. Of course, that's turnabout being fair play: society rejects introverts because introverts reject society (or, less absolutely, society finds less value in introverts because introverts prefer to engage less with it). Like you, I don't see any way to change it: it's like trying to get two positive charges to attract.
munchbunny 11y ago
Sounds like you and I would agree that children might grow up naturally introverted, but also that, because they are introverted, as a life skill they need to practice handling social settings especially with extroverts. I think that's what a healthy curriculum for introverted kids growing up looks like. I don't think we'll ever get around the social dominance of extroverts who naturally play this "game" well, the game exists and introverts need to know how to avoid handicapping themselves. My own parents were prescient enough to recognize this pattern in me - I'm naturally introverted, so they pushed me to learn how to flip a switch when I had to. Over time the amount of energy I had to spend to flip that switch has reduced to something I can sustain for a long time - fake it 'til you make it I guess. Within this reality, I'm quite grateful that my parents taught me this lesson before college, when arguably introversion might limit your long term personal and career prospects the most.

maxxxxx 11y ago

I wonder if there will be a time when introverts are being viewed as a discriminated group. It's not OK to make disparaging remarks about people of certain races, sexual orientation and other groups but it seems to be OK to make negative remarks about introverted or shy people. When I hear about women having it difficult to make their way in tech professions I always remember how hard it was to be a shy teenager.

cryoshon 11y ago
Yeah, I'd say introversion can have debilitating/disabling downsides (especially for younger people, from my own experience), but also a few powerful upsides when it comes to information processing and focused cognition. I don't really identify with the accepted negative remarks against introverts, though. The closest I can comment on is the perpetual "why are you so antisocial" line from childhood through adulthood, which is simultaneously infuriating and isolating. Children and young adults that are introverted are almost always constantly cajoled frequently to "be more social", and, of course, it's to their detriment to be so frequently indirectly reminded that they are outsiders. Of course, introverts are almost always going to be at a disadvantage in social skills, popularity contests, job interviews, etc-- and these things are far more critical to "success" than mere skill or intelligence. I'd say introverts are also usually slightly worse at the skill of having grit, too-- frequently there's something about having to struggle alone that makes failures more final. I imagine there's some great works waiting to be written regarding the experience of introversion from the 1980s to the present. The current crop of hackers are probably the first who have seen society go from viewing them as "antisocial" to "cool nerds".

glenda 11y ago

Speaking in front of people and working in groups are extremely valuable skills, even for introverts. This is like saying that people who don't enjoy physical activity should skip P.E. class -- in both cases there is both a developmental and health component at play. I am extremely introverted, but have no problem speaking to groups of people or even working in groups. I've always felt that my voice has been heard and respected because when I do talk people know that I have definitely thought it through. However, there are always those people who expect you to act exactly as they do. The actual problem seems to be that kids aren't really taught to hold respect for one another. Because of that once you exhibit any kind of quirky behavior you become the target of joking/teasing and other forms of alienation that may only amplify your initial weirdness.

anon4 11y ago
Kids should be better taught how to work in groups, really. It unfortunately goes both ways - you need to teach some of them not to blindly pick on introverts and teach the introverts how to communicate with others, including the art of lying and deception.
- verbin217 11y ago
  This. Some kids should definitely be put it special classes where they're taught to both deal with normal people and forgive them for their ways. If you don't spend much time deceiving people then you're far less able to detect lies. That or the subtle emotional manipulation demonstrated by any modern employer. It's an utterly essential skill in the "real world".
zephyrfalcon 11y ago
"Speaking in front of people and working in groups are extremely valuable skills, even for introverts." Yes -- and the problem is that very few places actually teach these skills to introverts. Rather, you are supposed to already know them. "This is like saying that people who don't enjoy physical activity should skip P.E. class -- in both cases there is both a developmental and health component at play." It's funny you should bring up PE here, because the same mechanism is usually at play there. PE classes don't focus on the kids who are bad at sports. They focus on those who are already good at it, for whatever reason.

zeveb 11y ago

> IMHO it's part of a larger system of not valuing introverts as a society. Of course, that's turnabout being fair play: society rejects introverts because introverts reject society (or, less absolutely, society finds less value in introverts because introverts prefer to engage less with it). Like you, I don't see any way to change it: it's like trying to get two positive charges to attract.

munchbunny 11y ago

Sounds like you and I would agree that children might grow up naturally introverted, but also that, because they are introverted, as a life skill they need to practice handling social settings especially with extroverts. I think that's what a healthy curriculum for introverted kids growing up looks like. I don't think we'll ever get around the social dominance of extroverts who naturally play this "game" well, the game exists and introverts need to know how to avoid handicapping themselves. My own parents were prescient enough to recognize this pattern in me - I'm naturally introverted, so they pushed me to learn how to flip a switch when I had to. Over time the amount of energy I had to spend to flip that switch has reduced to something I can sustain for a long time - fake it 'til you make it I guess. Within this reality, I'm quite grateful that my parents taught me this lesson before college, when arguably introversion might limit your long term personal and career prospects the most.