9 ms·

Final update on the JetBrains Toolbox announcement

189 points by azurelogic 11y ago

LoneWolf 11y ago
My only issue with their new licensing was the lack of perpetual license, now that they added it even being 1 year behind is a good compromise if I ever have to stop paying, but considering the discount of 40% after the 2nd year it becomes even cheaper than the previous model (at least for intellij).
joesmo 11y ago
With the perpetual license, this isn't really that different than the old model for people buying one year at a time. For me, it addresses the main issues I had with the previous plan (IDE no longer working after you stop payment or without Internet connection), albeit with some of the most complex license terms I've ran across.
- lsaferite 11y ago
  I'd say it's pretty different than before. You used to buy a license and it came with 1 year of updates and you had a perpetual license to the current version when your updates ran out. Now you pay for a year+ of updates and then you get a perpetual license for a year+ old version.
  - gurkendoktor 11y ago
    Having to downgrade at the end of the subscription sounds like a huge PITA. I really want to like subscriptions, but the overhead from declaring taxes on so many $10 invoices is annoying as well. :( I'll just wait for IDEA 15 and then stick with my current (paid) license.
    - hhariri 11y ago
      You can purchase annual subscriptions also.
  - joesmo 11y ago
    If you pay ahead of time, you're getting a one year license with one year's worth of updates and a perpetual license. This is exactly the way it works now.
    - lsaferite 11y ago
      You misunderstood what they said then. (With the new plan) If I purchase a 1 year subscription, then I get a perpetual license for the version AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. Any upgrades I get during the year go away if I don't subscribe for more time. Here is a link to help you understand: https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/204784622 https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/204784622
      - binarycrusader 11y ago
        It seems like a fairly reasonable compromise that addresses the concerns of both parties -- JetBrains needs a recurring revenue stream to support updates (fixes to version at time of purchase/subscription) and upgrades (new versions), while the customer needs the right to continue to use the software they purchased. Yes, the customer doesn't get to keep the latest version if they stop their subscription, but JetBrains needs some reasonable hook to cover support costs, and quite frankly, their software is relatively cheap in the commercial market and generally works as expected. It also addresses the concerns of those who claim "they'd be willing to pay more". If you decide to stop your update subscription, you have the option of getting a perpetual license for the latest version at that point by simply buying a year's worth of updates. If there's a better option that keeps JetBrains in business and customers happy, I'm sure many would like to hear it.
        xiaoma 11y ago
        The better option would be to simply disable further updates at the end of the year instead of forcing a downgrade. People who wanted future improvements would still be incentivized to pay for them, Jetbrains would be incentivized to continue improving the software so that people would want to keep purchasing, and nobody's current working setup would be held hostage at the end of the year!
estefan 11y ago
This is how a company should do things. Good on you JetBrains for listening and responding. Can't argue now :-)
acomjean 11y ago
I'm glad they listened, and modified. One thing that should be heartening to Jetbrains is that people like their products enough to really care about licensing. Its betters than having everyone just quietly walk away to another product.
oneJob 11y ago
Earlier post on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10170089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10170089 430 points & 495 comments (many not very nice) Now everyone is quiet? How about some love here. This is awesome. MS is going with an "All your data is belonging to us" model; we all complain; nothing changes. Out of the blue, Google shuts down another service; we all complain; nothing changes. JetBrains, good on you. Way more than you had to do, and did it with class. Three cheers for JetBrains!
- LoneWolf 11y ago
  My thoughts too, 7 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 not many comments either. Come on, you were mad because you didn't like it, and now? I assume the silence means you are happy, come on! Show some love.
  - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
    Why praise someone for doing the thing they should have done in the first place? That's like congratulating a cop for not beating up a random pedestrian. Actually, that's not even completely accurate - it's more like praising a car salesman for not charging you that extra $2,000 that you caught him tacking on. People should be praising themselves for complaining so loudly that they affected a positive change.
    - erichmond 11y ago
      What I am praising is the fact they listened to their customer feedback, and came back with a plan that they feel is "better" and addresses many of the issues their customers had. I am not sure what you mean by "doing the thing they should have done in the first place", What was the thing "they should have done"? They did their own market analysis, they did what they thought was right at the time, their userbase disagreed, they incorporated feedback and adjusted. This is exactly what I want companies I support to do. If you are mad at them for not reading your mind as to how you want them to run their business, that seems a bit silly.
WhitneyLand 11y ago
Amazing the amount effort they put into their products - even Google didn't want to compete with them and instead built Android studio on top.
infecto 11y ago
Great news for those that had an issue with the plan! I was fine with paying the monthly fee but am happy the company listened.
bpodgursky 11y ago
I'm glad they found a way to not buckle on the subscription model. I think having an option to get started on intellj for $10 for a month will really help build their customer base long term. No more $200 sticker shock. And since I'm going to upgrade yearly either way, I don't mind it getting cheaper...
aikah 11y ago
While I don't like that model, from a business standpoint, it worked extremely well for Adobe (someone pulled a chart the other day showing Adobe revenue skyrocketing since the introduction of creative cloud and the subscription model). It's no surprise many more businesses selling desktop software might be tempted to do this in the future.
- jordigh 11y ago
  Whatever makes the most money is the correct thing to do. How often do we hear something to this effect? :-( Also, creative cloud, creative cloud, creative cloud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaR2jR-RpYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaR2jR-RpYo
jrs235 11y ago
I think this is an excellent compromise.
xiaoma 11y ago
Forcing people to downgrade instead of just disabling updates sucks. It sounds like a frustrating hassle. After their previous announcement, I switched to Atom and I've actually been pretty happy with it.
tomku 11y ago
Said it on the post about this last week, but thanks for listening. I was one of the vocal critics of the original subscription plan, this new one is something that I can live with.
brightball 11y ago
This makes me very happy. I've been a JetBrains user since as far back as 2005 when IntelliJ was by far the best option for Java development. I've continued on with RubyMine. Worth every single dime.
afiedler 11y ago
This is great. I think the option to revert to a perpetual license will be a nice amount of market discipline for the team and keep them from stagnating. I actually appreciate the subscription model and I hope that it will enable them to support new frameworks more quickly. Front-end development is moving so quickly that yearly upgrades are not fast enough. For example, JSX is just now available in TypeScript, but WebStorm 10 doesn't support it and WebStorm 11 is still in EAP.
merb 11y ago
I loved the model since as a Developer who gots a Laptop and only gets the most necessary tools (which are paid) and IntelliJ isn't necessary cause of other Options. I need to buy it for my self (i own the laptop). And know I can afford JetBrains since I can pay monthly, which I couldn't. Thanks JetBrains, And thanks for the offline option :) P.S.: I love this one: > If you’re paying on a monthly basis, the software will > need to perform checks to validate the license using > JetBrains Account. If it cannot connect to the Internet > for MORE THAN 30 days, it will show you a message and > provide a grace time for connection. I hope you don't make more checks and 30 days Offline is enough for me :)
lol768 11y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008
kentt 11y ago
It's not great that when you stop paying monthly, your product reverts to version it was 1 year ago. I feel like that's a bit underhanded.
- erichmond 11y ago
  Your product reverts back to the version you've fully paid for via subscription.
tetraodonpuffer 11y ago
this is a very good system, now I wish Adobe did the same: it would definitely not be feasible to give you a full license for PS+LR after a year of $10/mo however they could easily do something like - every software has a 'price', your monthly subscription gives you credits, which you can redeem for 'permanent' versions of the software you want at the same version as when you started subscribing (so downgrade, same as here) - if you own a previous version of the software (say you own full CS6) then you get a discount so that after a year of monthly subscriptions you get a perpetual license for the version when you started the subscription (making it the same as if you had bought a boxed upgrade) this kind of model I think would make it a lot more palatable for people to get onboard with SAAS as you always have the choice of keeping to pay to be with the latest and greatest or stopping to pay and staying with a previous version if it works for you. The only issue I see is that there has to be really good forwards compatibility between the versions, because if I am subscribing and am on V2 and save my project, then end the subscription and get a permanent V1, I should be able to open my V2-saved-work without issues.
arenaninja 11y ago
Very confusing transition, but https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/ https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/ is really useful to figure out what you will pay. I think it works out in the end. For me, initial cost would be $250 for the initial two years, $149 for the third year. So I would pay $50 more over three years (and every year onwards) to have access to ALL their products. I think this is a good step. I've previously been in the awkward spot where I chose between PyCharm and PhpStorm because otherwise I'd have to pay in full for both and didn't want the swiss knife IDE. Thanks, Jetbrains!

189 points by azurelogic 11y ago

My only issue with their new licensing was the lack of perpetual license, now that they added it even being 1 year behind is a good compromise if I ever have to stop paying, but considering the discount of 40% after the 2nd year it becomes even cheaper than the previous model (at least for intellij).

joesmo 11y ago

With the perpetual license, this isn't really that different than the old model for people buying one year at a time. For me, it addresses the main issues I had with the previous plan (IDE no longer working after you stop payment or without Internet connection), albeit with some of the most complex license terms I've ran across.

lsaferite 11y ago
I'd say it's pretty different than before. You used to buy a license and it came with 1 year of updates and you had a perpetual license to the current version when your updates ran out. Now you pay for a year+ of updates and then you get a perpetual license for a year+ old version.
- gurkendoktor 11y ago
  Having to downgrade at the end of the subscription sounds like a huge PITA. I really want to like subscriptions, but the overhead from declaring taxes on so many $10 invoices is annoying as well. :( I'll just wait for IDEA 15 and then stick with my current (paid) license.
  - hhariri 11y ago
    You can purchase annual subscriptions also.
- joesmo 11y ago
  If you pay ahead of time, you're getting a one year license with one year's worth of updates and a perpetual license. This is exactly the way it works now.
  - lsaferite 11y ago
    You misunderstood what they said then. (With the new plan) If I purchase a 1 year subscription, then I get a perpetual license for the version AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. Any upgrades I get during the year go away if I don't subscribe for more time. Here is a link to help you understand: https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/204784622 https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/204784622
    - binarycrusader 11y ago
      It seems like a fairly reasonable compromise that addresses the concerns of both parties -- JetBrains needs a recurring revenue stream to support updates (fixes to version at time of purchase/subscription) and upgrades (new versions), while the customer needs the right to continue to use the software they purchased. Yes, the customer doesn't get to keep the latest version if they stop their subscription, but JetBrains needs some reasonable hook to cover support costs, and quite frankly, their software is relatively cheap in the commercial market and generally works as expected. It also addresses the concerns of those who claim "they'd be willing to pay more". If you decide to stop your update subscription, you have the option of getting a perpetual license for the latest version at that point by simply buying a year's worth of updates. If there's a better option that keeps JetBrains in business and customers happy, I'm sure many would like to hear it.
      - xiaoma 11y ago
        The better option would be to simply disable further updates at the end of the year instead of forcing a downgrade. People who wanted future improvements would still be incentivized to pay for them, Jetbrains would be incentivized to continue improving the software so that people would want to keep purchasing, and nobody's current working setup would be held hostage at the end of the year!

estefan 11y ago

This is how a company should do things. Good on you JetBrains for listening and responding. Can't argue now :-)

acomjean 11y ago

I'm glad they listened, and modified. One thing that should be heartening to Jetbrains is that people like their products enough to really care about licensing. Its betters than having everyone just quietly walk away to another product.

oneJob 11y ago

Earlier post on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10170089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10170089 430 points & 495 comments (many not very nice) Now everyone is quiet? How about some love here. This is awesome. MS is going with an "All your data is belonging to us" model; we all complain; nothing changes. Out of the blue, Google shuts down another service; we all complain; nothing changes. JetBrains, good on you. Way more than you had to do, and did it with class. Three cheers for JetBrains!

LoneWolf 11y ago
My thoughts too, 7 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 not many comments either. Come on, you were mad because you didn't like it, and now? I assume the silence means you are happy, come on! Show some love.
- WorldWideWayne 11y ago
  Why praise someone for doing the thing they should have done in the first place? That's like congratulating a cop for not beating up a random pedestrian. Actually, that's not even completely accurate - it's more like praising a car salesman for not charging you that extra $2,000 that you caught him tacking on. People should be praising themselves for complaining so loudly that they affected a positive change.
  - erichmond 11y ago
    What I am praising is the fact they listened to their customer feedback, and came back with a plan that they feel is "better" and addresses many of the issues their customers had. I am not sure what you mean by "doing the thing they should have done in the first place", What was the thing "they should have done"? They did their own market analysis, they did what they thought was right at the time, their userbase disagreed, they incorporated feedback and adjusted. This is exactly what I want companies I support to do. If you are mad at them for not reading your mind as to how you want them to run their business, that seems a bit silly.

WhitneyLand 11y ago

Amazing the amount effort they put into their products - even Google didn't want to compete with them and instead built Android studio on top.

infecto 11y ago

Great news for those that had an issue with the plan! I was fine with paying the monthly fee but am happy the company listened.

bpodgursky 11y ago

I'm glad they found a way to not buckle on the subscription model. I think having an option to get started on intellj for $10 for a month will really help build their customer base long term. No more $200 sticker shock. And since I'm going to upgrade yearly either way, I don't mind it getting cheaper...

aikah 11y ago

While I don't like that model, from a business standpoint, it worked extremely well for Adobe (someone pulled a chart the other day showing Adobe revenue skyrocketing since the introduction of creative cloud and the subscription model). It's no surprise many more businesses selling desktop software might be tempted to do this in the future.

jordigh 11y ago
Whatever makes the most money is the correct thing to do. How often do we hear something to this effect? :-( Also, creative cloud, creative cloud, creative cloud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaR2jR-RpYo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaR2jR-RpYo

jrs235 11y ago

I think this is an excellent compromise.

xiaoma 11y ago

Forcing people to downgrade instead of just disabling updates sucks. It sounds like a frustrating hassle. After their previous announcement, I switched to Atom and I've actually been pretty happy with it.

tomku 11y ago

Said it on the post about this last week, but thanks for listening. I was one of the vocal critics of the original subscription plan, this new one is something that I can live with.

brightball 11y ago

This makes me very happy. I've been a JetBrains user since as far back as 2005 when IntelliJ was by far the best option for Java development. I've continued on with RubyMine. Worth every single dime.

afiedler 11y ago

This is great. I think the option to revert to a perpetual license will be a nice amount of market discipline for the team and keep them from stagnating. I actually appreciate the subscription model and I hope that it will enable them to support new frameworks more quickly. Front-end development is moving so quickly that yearly upgrades are not fast enough. For example, JSX is just now available in TypeScript, but WebStorm 10 doesn't support it and WebStorm 11 is still in EAP.

merb 11y ago

I loved the model since as a Developer who gots a Laptop and only gets the most necessary tools (which are paid) and IntelliJ isn't necessary cause of other Options. I need to buy it for my self (i own the laptop). And know I can afford JetBrains since I can pay monthly, which I couldn't. Thanks JetBrains, And thanks for the offline option :) P.S.: I love this one: > If you’re paying on a monthly basis, the software will > need to perform checks to validate the license using > JetBrains Account. If it cannot connect to the Internet > for MORE THAN 30 days, it will show you a message and > provide a grace time for connection. I hope you don't make more checks and 30 days Offline is enough for me :)

lol768 11y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10239008

kentt 11y ago

It's not great that when you stop paying monthly, your product reverts to version it was 1 year ago. I feel like that's a bit underhanded.

erichmond 11y ago
Your product reverts back to the version you've fully paid for via subscription.

tetraodonpuffer 11y ago

this is a very good system, now I wish Adobe did the same: it would definitely not be feasible to give you a full license for PS+LR after a year of $10/mo however they could easily do something like - every software has a 'price', your monthly subscription gives you credits, which you can redeem for 'permanent' versions of the software you want at the same version as when you started subscribing (so downgrade, same as here) - if you own a previous version of the software (say you own full CS6) then you get a discount so that after a year of monthly subscriptions you get a perpetual license for the version when you started the subscription (making it the same as if you had bought a boxed upgrade) this kind of model I think would make it a lot more palatable for people to get onboard with SAAS as you always have the choice of keeping to pay to be with the latest and greatest or stopping to pay and staying with a previous version if it works for you. The only issue I see is that there has to be really good forwards compatibility between the versions, because if I am subscribing and am on V2 and save my project, then end the subscription and get a permanent V1, I should be able to open my V2-saved-work without issues.

arenaninja 11y ago

Very confusing transition, but https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/ https://www.jetbrains.com/toolbox/ is really useful to figure out what you will pay. I think it works out in the end. For me, initial cost would be $250 for the initial two years, $149 for the third year. So I would pay $50 more over three years (and every year onwards) to have access to ALL their products. I think this is a good step. I've previously been in the awkward spot where I chose between PyCharm and PhpStorm because otherwise I'd have to pay in full for both and didn't want the swiss knife IDE. Thanks, Jetbrains!