7 ms·

And go where?

at-fates-hands 11y ago
Here's a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_hardware_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_hardware_manu...
- Redoubts 11y ago
  This isn't a helpful reply to someone looking for products without bundled crapware.
  - at-fates-hands 11y ago
    I guess I thought it was pretty common for people to understand if they don't want bundled crapware, then they shouldn't buy laptops from retailers. Maybe buying direct from another manufacturer on the list in the link I posted or buying a laptop or PC without an OS on it solves 95% of the problem. Maybe I'm just assuming too much here. I guess this confirms my initial point when it comes to hardware, people are not that well informed.
    - Redoubts 11y ago
      This is also a silly reply, manufacturers bundle crapware themselves all the time.
      - at-fates-hands 11y ago
        Remind me again how a you can buy a laptop without an OS installed and still get bundled crapware?
        dandelion_lover 11y ago
        I just quote: "Lenovo is now using rootkit-like techniques to install their software on CLEAN Windows installs, by having the BIOS overwrite windows system files on bootup. Someone detailed this here: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=ddf3e32512932172454de515091db014#p29497693 http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=dd... " via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039306 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039306
  - dandelion_lover 11y ago
    Then maybe this can help: https://www.fsf.org/ryf https://www.fsf.org/ryf
SpaghettiCat 11y ago
Lemote: http://www.lemote.com/en/products/Notebook/2010/0310/112.html http://www.lemote.com/en/products/Notebook/2010/0310/112.htm... That Rev. Stallman uses their laptop speaks for Lemote's trustfulness.
- pki 11y ago
  rms uses a Thinkpad X60 with libreboot, iirc the lemote hasn't been his thing for a while now
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
nly 11y ago
Of course, source aside, if you want a $300 laptop then you'll get the low build-quality, plastic-fantastic piece of spyware-riddled crap you pay for. If you're paying a premium, for a product range where reputation and quality actually matters, you stand a better chance. Unfortunately in the current laptop market, imho, that means paying a minimum of $1000, with low-end Apple prices being preferable. Dells business range isn't so bad. I bought a Latitude in January of last year and, although it had some superfluous fluff bundled with it, it was lean enough that I didn't bother to format and reinstall from scratch (although I dual boot). I previously bought a Lenovo ThinkPad for more and returned it because the depressing build quality (I don't remember much about the bundled software because it simple doesn't factor in to my purchasing decisions). I think the fact that this spyware was found on a refurbed ThinkPad shows just how far the brand has fallen.
- kuschku 11y ago
  The 700€ Thinkpads also are free of spyware or any preinstalled such software. So, it is possible.
  - scott_karana 11y ago
    > The 700€ Thinkpads also are free of spyware or any preinstalled such software. So, it is possible. The machine in this article is a Thinkpad.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Interesting development then. Not that I'd ever buy a device with Windows preinstalled anyway, nor do I recommend it.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - kazazes 11y ago
      A refurbished Thinkpad. Can anyone confirm if this is included in the factory install?
mey 11y ago
If you are getting a Windows box, http://signature.microsoft.com/ http://signature.microsoft.com/ is an option. Otherwise business class systems are typically better about pre-installed cruft.
- balakk 11y ago
  It's not that straightforward; there are a ton of drivers that Lenovos come with; fingerprint scanners, synaptics touchpad, Sound cards and so on. These are usually bundled in a Lenovo System Update - when it gets installed, it installs a ton of cruft. It's a pity really - I have the latest X1 Carbon; it's a marvellous gadget. Pity the software is so poor.
  - mey 11y ago
    There honestly isn't a perfect option out there, but for example I've sworn off Lenovo at this point entirely. The unfortunate thing is Google recently sold Motorola to them.
ehartsuyker 11y ago
I live in Germany and recently got a Schenker. I'm running Debian 8 on it, and it works wonderfully. I imagine they do international shipping.
rihegher 11y ago
Clevo, fully compatible with the last Ubuntu LTS, shipping worldwide.
- bgibson 11y ago
  /second. And also custom-assembled at places like http://xoticpc.com/ http://xoticpc.com/
jamiesonbecker 11y ago
UPDATE: I've made a huge mistake. seduced by the matte black dark side. Avoid all modern Intel CPU/chipsets (post 2006) if you value your privacy and security: In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can't be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. http://libreboot.org/faq/#intel http://libreboot.org/faq/#intel Original comment follows: Former Thinkpad fan. I love my new Dell Rugged Extreme. I got the 12. This thing is built the way Thinkpads used to be (complete with the price tag of a used car). The only thing(s) I don't like about it is the missing trackpoint. I really miss that. And the fact that black-box UEFI is built in (but what do we know about modern microcode anyway, might as well get some ostensible security measures for 'free'). Oh, one more: the "QD" connectors do not accept standard straps/slings -- only insanely expensive (and hard to find) Dell brand straps/handles. Everything else about it is outstanding. This thing is a brick with rounded, rubber edges. Drive over it with your truck. (watch the video) Use it as body armor. (no, don't really) Go scuba diving in the arctic. (Check out the frozen-in-an-ice-block video on Youtube.. while running on battery.) The screen is incredibly bright, but it also has a slick quick-kill for all the lights. Just the thing for when a warlord is on your tail. The multi-color LED backlit keyboard looks awesome. It runs Kali Linux (built on Debian Jessie) perfectly. Everything works, including the touch screen and stylus, out of the box.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > And the fact that black-box UEFI is built in UEFI isn't any more black-box than BIOS in general. Sure, I'd rather run entirely FOSS firmware, but in the absence of that, UEFI doesn't make things any worse. If anything, it allows quite a bit more introspection and extensibility. And its core is FOSS (https://github.com/tianocore/edk2 https://github.com/tianocore/edk2), just not the versions shipped by board/system vendors.
  - jamiesonbecker 11y ago
    UEFI starts with encrypted code and wraps additional layers of encrypted, signed code around it. It's impenetrable, and purposefully so. That's the practical definition of "black box". It's huge, too, with a much larger attack surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...
gambiting 11y ago
At the risk of getting downvoted - Apple. Sure, Apple is a huge corporation that sits deep within US government pocket, sure. But at least their software tends to be written by them and them only, their laptops come with a uniform operating system that has no 3rd party malware, for which you don't need external drivers, which has good encryption software built in(again, probably not US-government proof, but good enough for most), and really good permission settings which only allow approved apps to be installed. And then it's a great operating system for developers, programmers, web designers etc. You can say many things about Apple, but at least when you buy their hardware you know exactly what to expect. If you used one of their laptops you've used them all.
- jamiesonbecker 11y ago
  Downvoting is rude. But, to your point -- Apple hardware, like most modern laptops, are built on Intel chipsets and cryptographically signed to prevent tampering by the owner. You're locked out of your own laptop. If you're concerned about security or even if you just like to hack on the stuff you paid for, it's probably not where you want to be. You have no idea what's going on in there, and it's heavily encrypted at multiple layers to keep you from finding out. See my comment above: you were backdoored before the operating system was even installed. I was too, with my sweet new matte black Dell. (See my comment above). The sad part is that there are very few modern laptops (if any) that we're not steadily being locked out of. It's not just Apple. It's (almost) everyone. and, of course, it's our phones, too. Check out the libreboot and coreboot websites for some modern(ish) gear that isn't backdoored.

And go where?

Here's a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_hardware_manufacturers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_hardware_manu...

Redoubts 11y ago
This isn't a helpful reply to someone looking for products without bundled crapware.
- at-fates-hands 11y ago
  I guess I thought it was pretty common for people to understand if they don't want bundled crapware, then they shouldn't buy laptops from retailers. Maybe buying direct from another manufacturer on the list in the link I posted or buying a laptop or PC without an OS on it solves 95% of the problem. Maybe I'm just assuming too much here. I guess this confirms my initial point when it comes to hardware, people are not that well informed.
  - Redoubts 11y ago
    This is also a silly reply, manufacturers bundle crapware themselves all the time.
    - at-fates-hands 11y ago
      Remind me again how a you can buy a laptop without an OS installed and still get bundled crapware?
      - dandelion_lover 11y ago
        I just quote: "Lenovo is now using rootkit-like techniques to install their software on CLEAN Windows installs, by having the BIOS overwrite windows system files on bootup. Someone detailed this here: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=ddf3e32512932172454de515091db014#p29497693 http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=29497693&sid=dd... " via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039306 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039306
- dandelion_lover 11y ago
  Then maybe this can help: https://www.fsf.org/ryf https://www.fsf.org/ryf

SpaghettiCat 11y ago

Lemote: http://www.lemote.com/en/products/Notebook/2010/0310/112.html http://www.lemote.com/en/products/Notebook/2010/0310/112.htm... That Rev. Stallman uses their laptop speaks for Lemote's trustfulness.

pki 11y ago
rms uses a Thinkpad X60 with libreboot, iirc the lemote hasn't been his thing for a while now
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

nly 11y ago

Of course, source aside, if you want a $300 laptop then you'll get the low build-quality, plastic-fantastic piece of spyware-riddled crap you pay for. If you're paying a premium, for a product range where reputation and quality actually matters, you stand a better chance. Unfortunately in the current laptop market, imho, that means paying a minimum of $1000, with low-end Apple prices being preferable. Dells business range isn't so bad. I bought a Latitude in January of last year and, although it had some superfluous fluff bundled with it, it was lean enough that I didn't bother to format and reinstall from scratch (although I dual boot). I previously bought a Lenovo ThinkPad for more and returned it because the depressing build quality (I don't remember much about the bundled software because it simple doesn't factor in to my purchasing decisions). I think the fact that this spyware was found on a refurbed ThinkPad shows just how far the brand has fallen.

kuschku 11y ago
The 700€ Thinkpads also are free of spyware or any preinstalled such software. So, it is possible.
- scott_karana 11y ago
  > The 700€ Thinkpads also are free of spyware or any preinstalled such software. So, it is possible. The machine in this article is a Thinkpad.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Interesting development then. Not that I'd ever buy a device with Windows preinstalled anyway, nor do I recommend it.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - kazazes 11y ago
    A refurbished Thinkpad. Can anyone confirm if this is included in the factory install?

mey 11y ago

If you are getting a Windows box, http://signature.microsoft.com/ http://signature.microsoft.com/ is an option. Otherwise business class systems are typically better about pre-installed cruft.

balakk 11y ago
It's not that straightforward; there are a ton of drivers that Lenovos come with; fingerprint scanners, synaptics touchpad, Sound cards and so on. These are usually bundled in a Lenovo System Update - when it gets installed, it installs a ton of cruft. It's a pity really - I have the latest X1 Carbon; it's a marvellous gadget. Pity the software is so poor.
- mey 11y ago
  There honestly isn't a perfect option out there, but for example I've sworn off Lenovo at this point entirely. The unfortunate thing is Google recently sold Motorola to them.

ehartsuyker 11y ago

I live in Germany and recently got a Schenker. I'm running Debian 8 on it, and it works wonderfully. I imagine they do international shipping.

rihegher 11y ago

Clevo, fully compatible with the last Ubuntu LTS, shipping worldwide.

bgibson 11y ago
/second. And also custom-assembled at places like http://xoticpc.com/ http://xoticpc.com/

jamiesonbecker 11y ago

UPDATE: I've made a huge mistake. seduced by the matte black dark side. Avoid all modern Intel CPU/chipsets (post 2006) if you value your privacy and security: In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy, and the libreboot project strongly recommends avoiding it entirely. Since recent versions of it can't be removed, this means avoiding all recent generations of Intel hardware. http://libreboot.org/faq/#intel http://libreboot.org/faq/#intel Original comment follows: Former Thinkpad fan. I love my new Dell Rugged Extreme. I got the 12. This thing is built the way Thinkpads used to be (complete with the price tag of a used car). The only thing(s) I don't like about it is the missing trackpoint. I really miss that. And the fact that black-box UEFI is built in (but what do we know about modern microcode anyway, might as well get some ostensible security measures for 'free'). Oh, one more: the "QD" connectors do not accept standard straps/slings -- only insanely expensive (and hard to find) Dell brand straps/handles. Everything else about it is outstanding. This thing is a brick with rounded, rubber edges. Drive over it with your truck. (watch the video) Use it as body armor. (no, don't really) Go scuba diving in the arctic. (Check out the frozen-in-an-ice-block video on Youtube.. while running on battery.) The screen is incredibly bright, but it also has a slick quick-kill for all the lights. Just the thing for when a warlord is on your tail. The multi-color LED backlit keyboard looks awesome. It runs Kali Linux (built on Debian Jessie) perfectly. Everything works, including the touch screen and stylus, out of the box.

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> And the fact that black-box UEFI is built in UEFI isn't any more black-box than BIOS in general. Sure, I'd rather run entirely FOSS firmware, but in the absence of that, UEFI doesn't make things any worse. If anything, it allows quite a bit more introspection and extensibility. And its core is FOSS (https://github.com/tianocore/edk2 https://github.com/tianocore/edk2), just not the versions shipped by board/system vendors.
- jamiesonbecker 11y ago
  UEFI starts with encrypted code and wraps additional layers of encrypted, signed code around it. It's impenetrable, and purposefully so. That's the practical definition of "black box". It's huge, too, with a much larger attack surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_In...

gambiting 11y ago

At the risk of getting downvoted - Apple. Sure, Apple is a huge corporation that sits deep within US government pocket, sure. But at least their software tends to be written by them and them only, their laptops come with a uniform operating system that has no 3rd party malware, for which you don't need external drivers, which has good encryption software built in(again, probably not US-government proof, but good enough for most), and really good permission settings which only allow approved apps to be installed. And then it's a great operating system for developers, programmers, web designers etc. You can say many things about Apple, but at least when you buy their hardware you know exactly what to expect. If you used one of their laptops you've used them all.

jamiesonbecker 11y ago
Downvoting is rude. But, to your point -- Apple hardware, like most modern laptops, are built on Intel chipsets and cryptographically signed to prevent tampering by the owner. You're locked out of your own laptop. If you're concerned about security or even if you just like to hack on the stuff you paid for, it's probably not where you want to be. You have no idea what's going on in there, and it's heavily encrypted at multiple layers to keep you from finding out. See my comment above: you were backdoored before the operating system was even installed. I was too, with my sweet new matte black Dell. (See my comment above). The sad part is that there are very few modern laptops (if any) that we're not steadily being locked out of. It's not just Apple. It's (almost) everyone. and, of course, it's our phones, too. Check out the libreboot and coreboot websites for some modern(ish) gear that isn't backdoored.