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Just wanted to highlight a very important advice on the article: You do not reach [work life] balance by reducing work. You reach balance by finding a passion

Just wanted to highlight a very important advice on the article: You do not reach [work life] balance by reducing work. You reach balance by finding a passion that draws you out of work.

melling 11y ago
How does that play out when you're a parent with a spouse and 4 children?
- softawre 11y ago
  Time machine? Or find something you like to do with your kids.
- bluedino 11y ago
  I have heard once you have children, you only have time for one hobby. True?
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Not for me. I had 3 children; also did Scouts (involving the children), wrote (1 hr every morning before everyone else woke), moderated a game club (every Thursday 4:30), visit a shooting range. Once the children are older, it accelerated of course.
    - nkassis 11y ago
      I assume you had to have good time management habits to pull it off?
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Scouts was always a do-everything-at-the-last-minute thing. You just have to be present for the kids, that's the most important thing. Regularly scheduled hobbies are the easiest to pull off. If you just try to find a spare hour, you never will.
        shostack 11y ago
        How did you balance that with your job? Do you have a normal "9-5" or "10-6" type job? I always wonder how people carve out time for stuff with family and such in the early evening on weeknights when normal leaving times + commute mean I likely wouldn't get home till 6:30 at the earliest.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        I told each boss "I work with the Scouts. I camp one weekend a month, and will leave work early on that Friday. The day will come when there's a rush at work, and I really need to stay late and get something done instead. On that day, I will go camping with the Scouts." Being upfront about it like that got me a lot of credit somehow. It was never a problem. Also, when they were around 12, I was a partner in a consulting firm. So I could make my own hours. That definitely helped out during those years.
        shostack 11y ago
        Thanks for the details. I'm fortunate to work in a place where this is largely not an issue. I work hard and often put in time at night and on the weekend because I'm Type A, so I don't worry when I need to take time off because I know I've put the time in and deliver results. That said, I've definitely worked at companies that want to have their cake (in by 8:30 or 9) and eat it to (leave no earlier than 5:30-6 with expectations of frequent late nights and weekends with 2 weeks vacation). I've simply lost all tolerance for that, and always wonder how others manage it in stricter environments.
        lfowles 11y ago
        At my "generic" workplace, core hours are 9-4. Everyone is responsible for getting 8 hours in a day, so a lot of people take advantage of the spread by coming in at 7 and leaving at 4 (w/ hour lunch break).
  - maratd 11y ago
    It depends on their age. When they're babies, you won't have time for sleep. It tapers off as they get older and go to daycare/school/etc.
  - icefox 11y ago
    The best advice I was given when my daughter was born was to not only put away hobbies, but to remove them from view. Suggestions I was given where things like: packing up the game console and games and put them in the closet, donated the pile of books that I was never going to read, and clear desks/shelves, etc that contained unfinished projects. The first few months there wasn't time for any of that anyway and then as I began to have time I took out the few items that I really wanted to use, but all the while I didn't have a constant pile of fun things around the house making me feel bad because I didn't have time to play with them. Depending on the circumstances you will have different amounts of time, but most importantly is realizing that you will have less time and taking steps to adjust to your new role.
    - lfowles 11y ago
      No kids yet, but this rings true. The burden of hobbies I'm not working on sucks more time than actually sitting down with a single hobby.
  - panglott 11y ago
    Very small children are mostly loud meat slugs and easy to care for while you're playing games. Then there's a phase where they're very active but not potty-trained or good at talking. The next phase, when they are a little older, you can share your hobbies with them. Kids love to do fun things like hiking and camping and building stuff and playing games. That is awesome.
  - stvswn 11y ago
    Being 14 months into the experience, I'd say that you don't have any time for hobbies at first, but you're surprised at how much you don't really care. My family is my passion outside of work. I don't think of taking care of my daughter as work the way I would have thought about babysitting someone else's kid before I became a father.
  - jimbokun 11y ago
    As my kids got older and started playing sports, I eventually got to the point where I am now coaching one of their soccer teams. It has become a real passion, and I also joined a team myself (in my younger days, pickup basketball was more my thing). My wife helps coach, and she just started a soccer clinic/pickup group for Moms. So I guess from my perspective, I would say your passions and hobbies and interests can be molded by having children, and become something you share and develop together as a family. From an outside perspective, we probably devote too much time to this sport (I would have thought so a few years ago), but it's something we all enjoy and have found ways to participate in together.
- phn 11y ago
  The spouse and 4 children are part of the passion outside of work? :)
- kohanz 11y ago
  From the OP: Of course, family comes first on this ladder
- johnward 11y ago
  In that case you decide which is more important. Work or taking care of your family. Now I know having a job is part of the taking care of your family thing but you have to honestly weigh "if I leave work on time am I actually going to get fired". The answer is usually no.
atomical 11y ago
That's the same damn thing.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > That's the same damn thing. Not really; a side effect of finding a passion that draws you out of work is that you reduce work but simply reducing work is not the same thing.
  - atomical 11y ago
    I understand that he was trying to be clever and thought provoking, but it was neither. Reducing work just by itself is a good thing. If someone doesn't have any passions, does it make sense for them to work 12 hour days in the interim? I don't think so.
    - hinkley 11y ago
      It really isn't the same. If you have a habit you're trying to break, abstention is the most obvious tool and everybody goes for it (and everybody faults themselves or each other when it doesn't work). If you've ever heard the term "white knuckling", that concept can often describe this sort of situation. "I'll just suck it Up and stop" But many self improvement advisors across a host of problems from overeating to addiction agree that the way to kick a habit is to crowd it out of your life. You don't have time to eat a cheesecake because you're going for a run or to a volunteer event or to the park with your kids.
yodsanklai 11y ago
Not sure I understand this advice. How to explain to my employer that I'm going to spend less time working because I have better things to do?
- jayvanguard 11y ago
  If you feel that your employer knowing about outside passions is going to be a problem then you need to find another employer.
- untog 11y ago
  The same way you explain to your employer that you have defined working hours, and will be working within them.
  - deaconblues 11y ago
    Thank you. I was reprimanded once for essentially "only" being at the office for the defined time we agreed I would be there. I spent some time racking my brain until I decided I wasn't being unreasonable.
    - johnward 11y ago
      There is this hyaundai commercial ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ8Klm8vPlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ8Klm8vPlI ) that hits home for me. "When did leaving work on time become an act of courage". It's so true.
      - sanderjd 11y ago
        I've always found it humorous that the clock hits 6:00 rather than 5:00. "Leaving work on time is an act of courage, but let's not get crazy!" Presumably he courageously started at 10:00 or took an hour away from work for lunch.
        cdf 11y ago
crimsonalucard 11y ago
The work life balance is more of a necessity then a balance. You work to live while remembering to make room for the later. True balance is when the need to work no longer exists.
jkot 11y ago
Or you just give up and code with a baby on your lap. Bigger problem for me is a work/sleep balance.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  Babies stay on laps? What? Oh I remember now.
johnward 11y ago
My employer technically owns anything I create. Even outside working hours. They have even won cases where an employee patented an idea after leaving the company. The court granted the company the patent. Talk about screwed up. Obviously I'm not in CA but am in the US.
- walshemj 11y ago
  I think its technically only things "related to your day job" that are covered.
  - throwaway342526 11y ago
    In California that's (essentially) true. Other states permit far more draconian limits on employee freedom. He says he's from outside CA.
    - johnward 11y ago
      It's kind of a grey area. The court docs show that they have won. I don't know if they were directly related to the persons daily responsibilities. I think there was some wording about any thing that competes with the company but the company is in basically every market. Honestly, I just weigh the risk of weather or not I think they would actually even care about what I'm working on. I know we have people who make mobile games on the side and no one really cares. If I'm not directly competing and stealing clients I think that chances are low that they will try to claim ownership.
- zeckalpha 11y ago
  Leave.
  - zeckalpha 11y ago
    Watson is cool and all. Don't get me wrong.
    - 11y ago

Just wanted to highlight a very important advice on the article: You do not reach [work life] balance by reducing work. You reach balance by finding a passion that draws you out of work.

melling 11y ago

How does that play out when you're a parent with a spouse and 4 children?

softawre 11y ago
Time machine? Or find something you like to do with your kids.
bluedino 11y ago
I have heard once you have children, you only have time for one hobby. True?
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Not for me. I had 3 children; also did Scouts (involving the children), wrote (1 hr every morning before everyone else woke), moderated a game club (every Thursday 4:30), visit a shooting range. Once the children are older, it accelerated of course.
  - nkassis 11y ago
    I assume you had to have good time management habits to pull it off?
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Scouts was always a do-everything-at-the-last-minute thing. You just have to be present for the kids, that's the most important thing. Regularly scheduled hobbies are the easiest to pull off. If you just try to find a spare hour, you never will.
      - shostack 11y ago
        How did you balance that with your job? Do you have a normal "9-5" or "10-6" type job? I always wonder how people carve out time for stuff with family and such in the early evening on weeknights when normal leaving times + commute mean I likely wouldn't get home till 6:30 at the earliest.
        JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        I told each boss "I work with the Scouts. I camp one weekend a month, and will leave work early on that Friday. The day will come when there's a rush at work, and I really need to stay late and get something done instead. On that day, I will go camping with the Scouts." Being upfront about it like that got me a lot of credit somehow. It was never a problem. Also, when they were around 12, I was a partner in a consulting firm. So I could make my own hours. That definitely helped out during those years.
        shostack 11y ago
        Thanks for the details. I'm fortunate to work in a place where this is largely not an issue. I work hard and often put in time at night and on the weekend because I'm Type A, so I don't worry when I need to take time off because I know I've put the time in and deliver results. That said, I've definitely worked at companies that want to have their cake (in by 8:30 or 9) and eat it to (leave no earlier than 5:30-6 with expectations of frequent late nights and weekends with 2 weeks vacation). I've simply lost all tolerance for that, and always wonder how others manage it in stricter environments.
        lfowles 11y ago
        At my "generic" workplace, core hours are 9-4. Everyone is responsible for getting 8 hours in a day, so a lot of people take advantage of the spread by coming in at 7 and leaving at 4 (w/ hour lunch break).
- maratd 11y ago
  It depends on their age. When they're babies, you won't have time for sleep. It tapers off as they get older and go to daycare/school/etc.
- icefox 11y ago
  The best advice I was given when my daughter was born was to not only put away hobbies, but to remove them from view. Suggestions I was given where things like: packing up the game console and games and put them in the closet, donated the pile of books that I was never going to read, and clear desks/shelves, etc that contained unfinished projects. The first few months there wasn't time for any of that anyway and then as I began to have time I took out the few items that I really wanted to use, but all the while I didn't have a constant pile of fun things around the house making me feel bad because I didn't have time to play with them. Depending on the circumstances you will have different amounts of time, but most importantly is realizing that you will have less time and taking steps to adjust to your new role.
  - lfowles 11y ago
    No kids yet, but this rings true. The burden of hobbies I'm not working on sucks more time than actually sitting down with a single hobby.
- panglott 11y ago
  Very small children are mostly loud meat slugs and easy to care for while you're playing games. Then there's a phase where they're very active but not potty-trained or good at talking. The next phase, when they are a little older, you can share your hobbies with them. Kids love to do fun things like hiking and camping and building stuff and playing games. That is awesome.
- stvswn 11y ago
  Being 14 months into the experience, I'd say that you don't have any time for hobbies at first, but you're surprised at how much you don't really care. My family is my passion outside of work. I don't think of taking care of my daughter as work the way I would have thought about babysitting someone else's kid before I became a father.
- jimbokun 11y ago
  As my kids got older and started playing sports, I eventually got to the point where I am now coaching one of their soccer teams. It has become a real passion, and I also joined a team myself (in my younger days, pickup basketball was more my thing). My wife helps coach, and she just started a soccer clinic/pickup group for Moms. So I guess from my perspective, I would say your passions and hobbies and interests can be molded by having children, and become something you share and develop together as a family. From an outside perspective, we probably devote too much time to this sport (I would have thought so a few years ago), but it's something we all enjoy and have found ways to participate in together.
phn 11y ago
The spouse and 4 children are part of the passion outside of work? :)
kohanz 11y ago
From the OP: Of course, family comes first on this ladder
johnward 11y ago
In that case you decide which is more important. Work or taking care of your family. Now I know having a job is part of the taking care of your family thing but you have to honestly weigh "if I leave work on time am I actually going to get fired". The answer is usually no.

atomical 11y ago

That's the same damn thing.

BinaryIdiot 11y ago
> That's the same damn thing. Not really; a side effect of finding a passion that draws you out of work is that you reduce work but simply reducing work is not the same thing.
- atomical 11y ago
  I understand that he was trying to be clever and thought provoking, but it was neither. Reducing work just by itself is a good thing. If someone doesn't have any passions, does it make sense for them to work 12 hour days in the interim? I don't think so.
  - hinkley 11y ago
    It really isn't the same. If you have a habit you're trying to break, abstention is the most obvious tool and everybody goes for it (and everybody faults themselves or each other when it doesn't work). If you've ever heard the term "white knuckling", that concept can often describe this sort of situation. "I'll just suck it Up and stop" But many self improvement advisors across a host of problems from overeating to addiction agree that the way to kick a habit is to crowd it out of your life. You don't have time to eat a cheesecake because you're going for a run or to a volunteer event or to the park with your kids.

yodsanklai 11y ago

Not sure I understand this advice. How to explain to my employer that I'm going to spend less time working because I have better things to do?

jayvanguard 11y ago
If you feel that your employer knowing about outside passions is going to be a problem then you need to find another employer.
untog 11y ago
The same way you explain to your employer that you have defined working hours, and will be working within them.
- deaconblues 11y ago
  Thank you. I was reprimanded once for essentially "only" being at the office for the defined time we agreed I would be there. I spent some time racking my brain until I decided I wasn't being unreasonable.
  - johnward 11y ago
    There is this hyaundai commercial ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ8Klm8vPlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ8Klm8vPlI ) that hits home for me. "When did leaving work on time become an act of courage". It's so true.
    - sanderjd 11y ago
      I've always found it humorous that the clock hits 6:00 rather than 5:00. "Leaving work on time is an act of courage, but let's not get crazy!" Presumably he courageously started at 10:00 or took an hour away from work for lunch.
      - cdf 11y ago

crimsonalucard 11y ago

The work life balance is more of a necessity then a balance. You work to live while remembering to make room for the later. True balance is when the need to work no longer exists.

jkot 11y ago

Or you just give up and code with a baby on your lap. Bigger problem for me is a work/sleep balance.

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
Babies stay on laps? What? Oh I remember now.

johnward 11y ago

My employer technically owns anything I create. Even outside working hours. They have even won cases where an employee patented an idea after leaving the company. The court granted the company the patent. Talk about screwed up. Obviously I'm not in CA but am in the US.

walshemj 11y ago
I think its technically only things "related to your day job" that are covered.
- throwaway342526 11y ago
  In California that's (essentially) true. Other states permit far more draconian limits on employee freedom. He says he's from outside CA.
  - johnward 11y ago
    It's kind of a grey area. The court docs show that they have won. I don't know if they were directly related to the persons daily responsibilities. I think there was some wording about any thing that competes with the company but the company is in basically every market. Honestly, I just weigh the risk of weather or not I think they would actually even care about what I'm working on. I know we have people who make mobile games on the side and no one really cares. If I'm not directly competing and stealing clients I think that chances are low that they will try to claim ownership.
zeckalpha 11y ago
Leave.
- zeckalpha 11y ago
  Watson is cool and all. Don't get me wrong.
  - 11y ago