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The French are still exceptionally devoted to their culture, to an extent that is unique in the Western world. It's funny when the two collide. Sitting in Cham

The French are still exceptionally devoted to their culture, to an extent that is unique in the Western world. It's funny when the two collide. Sitting in Champ de Mars watching people walk by while enjoying sun, wine and a cigarette I was struck by how many Western tourists were too busy with their selfie sticks and massaging their online persona to give a fuck that they were somewhere beautiful and rich in history. I think a big problem is that individualism, the precursor for optimal consumer behavior, has been incredibly effective at driving people to lowest-common-denominator behaviors, chiefly narcissism, and left a good chunk of the worlds population cretinized. How can French culture or any advanced culture compete?

Dylan16807 11y ago
>It's funny when the two collide. Sitting in Champ de Mars watching people walk by while enjoying sun, wine and a cigarette I was struck by how many Western tourists were too busy with their selfie sticks and massaging their online persona to give a fuck that they were somewhere beautiful and rich in history. Or they just prefer a whirlwind of experience, moving around to take in the area from many angles, rather than stopping and passively soaking in a slice. I wouldn't say either is better. You just have your preference.
javert 11y ago
Individualism has nothing to do with it. The French people actually enjoying the Champ de Mars are not not being individualistic. Rather, enjoying private pleasures is individualistic. What you are actually lampooning is being thoughtless and having poor taste.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  He isn't saying being individualistic is bad, but that the philosophy that elevated individualism above all else leads to, among other things, narcissism. The latter is what he lampoons. Many Americans observe Millennials to be the most narcissistic generation ever. I think there is much truth in that. But I also see hopeful signs of reversal. Maybe.
  - javert 11y ago
    Complaining about "narcissism" has recently, and strangely, become part of our cultural milieu. I don't know what is really meant by that term or why it is supposed to be a problem. It seems like the intellectual boogeyman de jure. If "Millennials" really are narcissistic, they will most likely grow out of it (whatever it is) in the normal course of, you know, growing up. Separately: > the philosophy that elevated individualism above all else I don't know of any such philosophy in particular. Except possibly Ayn Rand's, which is not what he is talking about. Enlightenment philosophy in general does elevate individualism, but not "above all else."
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      > If "Millennials" really are narcissistic, they will most likely grow out of it (whatever it is) in the normal course of, you know, growing up. They might. But the Baby Boomers were also known as the "me generation", and they don't seem to have grown out of it. And the millennials are the consequence of the baby boomers' childrearing. NB: Individuals in any generation may be exceptions. I'm speaking specifically to the gross cultural, business and political trends these generations exhibit.
- icanhackit 11y ago
  > Individualism has nothing to do with it. My argument was that individualism, unchecked by introspection and consideration, drives people towards simplistic behaviors focused on the self. As a result, cultures that reward introspection and consideration are at a disadvantage to cultures focused on consumption.
eevilspock 11y ago
The other offshoot of unbridled individualism is the belief in social darwinism. I say this as no fan of the French: If American intellectuals, from Bible Belt "personal responsibility" types to Silicon Valley libertarians[1], don't reverse their deep social darwinist convictions, it will soon be "American thought once dazzled the world. Where did it go wrong?" (and no amount of down-voting will prevent that.) [1] where "meritocracy" is often code for social darwanism.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  Social Darwinism was an error of Spencer's, but the world was a billiard-ball, Determinist world then. So the end position of a particle must be determined by it's initial direction and velocity. Malthus was strikingly similar but different. Nobody's actually a Social Darwinist now. There's just the Conservative "barbarians are at the gate" thing and too much emphasis on fame. To forgive Spencer, you should at least read Social Statics. :)

Dylan16807 11y ago

>It's funny when the two collide. Sitting in Champ de Mars watching people walk by while enjoying sun, wine and a cigarette I was struck by how many Western tourists were too busy with their selfie sticks and massaging their online persona to give a fuck that they were somewhere beautiful and rich in history. Or they just prefer a whirlwind of experience, moving around to take in the area from many angles, rather than stopping and passively soaking in a slice. I wouldn't say either is better. You just have your preference.

javert 11y ago

Individualism has nothing to do with it. The French people actually enjoying the Champ de Mars are not not being individualistic. Rather, enjoying private pleasures is individualistic. What you are actually lampooning is being thoughtless and having poor taste.

eevilspock 11y ago
He isn't saying being individualistic is bad, but that the philosophy that elevated individualism above all else leads to, among other things, narcissism. The latter is what he lampoons. Many Americans observe Millennials to be the most narcissistic generation ever. I think there is much truth in that. But I also see hopeful signs of reversal. Maybe.
- javert 11y ago
  Complaining about "narcissism" has recently, and strangely, become part of our cultural milieu. I don't know what is really meant by that term or why it is supposed to be a problem. It seems like the intellectual boogeyman de jure. If "Millennials" really are narcissistic, they will most likely grow out of it (whatever it is) in the normal course of, you know, growing up. Separately: > the philosophy that elevated individualism above all else I don't know of any such philosophy in particular. Except possibly Ayn Rand's, which is not what he is talking about. Enlightenment philosophy in general does elevate individualism, but not "above all else."
  - Jtsummers 11y ago
    > If "Millennials" really are narcissistic, they will most likely grow out of it (whatever it is) in the normal course of, you know, growing up. They might. But the Baby Boomers were also known as the "me generation", and they don't seem to have grown out of it. And the millennials are the consequence of the baby boomers' childrearing. NB: Individuals in any generation may be exceptions. I'm speaking specifically to the gross cultural, business and political trends these generations exhibit.
icanhackit 11y ago
> Individualism has nothing to do with it. My argument was that individualism, unchecked by introspection and consideration, drives people towards simplistic behaviors focused on the self. As a result, cultures that reward introspection and consideration are at a disadvantage to cultures focused on consumption.

eevilspock 11y ago

The other offshoot of unbridled individualism is the belief in social darwinism. I say this as no fan of the French: If American intellectuals, from Bible Belt "personal responsibility" types to Silicon Valley libertarians[1], don't reverse their deep social darwinist convictions, it will soon be "American thought once dazzled the world. Where did it go wrong?" (and no amount of down-voting will prevent that.) [1] where "meritocracy" is often code for social darwanism.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago
Social Darwinism was an error of Spencer's, but the world was a billiard-ball, Determinist world then. So the end position of a particle must be determined by it's initial direction and velocity. Malthus was strikingly similar but different. Nobody's actually a Social Darwinist now. There's just the Conservative "barbarians are at the gate" thing and too much emphasis on fame. To forgive Spencer, you should at least read Social Statics. :)