11 ms·

VW emissions scandal hits 11m vehicles

86 points by jsnathan 11y ago

kodis 11y ago
There are a couple of questions that I haven't seen addressed on this issue: why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix?; and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power?
- 15155 11y ago
  > and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power Slip it into their vehicle next time they're in for some other routine issue.
  - alexpersian 11y ago
    That would cause an even greater scandal than what they are in right now.
  - hnal943 11y ago
    Who takes their car to a dealer to have it serviced? Certainly not everyone.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      In the UK all cars need a yearly MOT. https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test I guess most of Europe has something similar.
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        But MOT does not require going to a dealer, just to a garage. For sure dealers do this too but it's not a requirement MOT be done by the dealer of the brand.
  - AjithAntony 11y ago
    Only let them claim the hypothetical $1000 payout if they come in to flash the ECU.
- Handmadeby 11y ago
  My assumption is that this is a software issue because it's the engine management system switching to a mode like "sport" or "economy" by changing things like timing, fuel /air mix etc
- amatix 11y ago
  As a consumer, surely you have a fairly legitimate comeback with "the fuel economy & power is now rubbish, I'd have never bought the car in the first place if it was like that"? Pretty hard for VW to prove otherwise, and I don't know whether the outcome would look like a refund, replacement, or something else... (the first two would cost billions)
  - CWuestefeld 11y ago
    Several years back, Hyundai got in trouble for having worse fuel efficiency than their EPA numbers claimed. They had to pay off all owners of that car (I don't recall whether that was due to class action lawsuit, or an agreement with the gov't). So it seems to me that if VW has to detune their engine performance, they'll similarly have to compensate owners of the affected cars.
    - QuotedForTruth 11y ago
      That was easy to do since you could determine the difference in gas cost between advertised and actual performance. How do you value power though?
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle.
      - Evolved 11y ago
        toomuchtodo 4 minutes ago Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle. I don't think that would quite work because the new sales would also factor in distrust and changes in consumer perception and taste which further reduces the amount of sales VW might have. You'd essentially have to do this in a vacuum where the updated vehicles' sales were subtracted from the non-updated vehicles and the numbers crunched on the premise that nobody ever found out about this and it was just fixed and swept under the rug. Either way, I like your idea and I hope these owners get adequately compensated for this.
- travem 11y ago
  > how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? One option would be to make it an automatic fail of the emissions tests for any car where this has not been fixed. This obviously won't work universally but for locations where emissions testing is required periodically this could help move the process along.
- bigtech 11y ago
  As I understand it, these cars were designed with a simplified system for maintaining low emissions that used fewer parts. Evidently, software can allow the system to pass the emission test but at a significant loss of power.
  - BashiBazouk 11y ago
    I've seen a whole bunch of theories about what the practical effect of turning on test mode all the time will do. From the engine is powerful enough that the net effect will just be lower mileage up to power, mileage and reliability will get worse and everything in between. I'm surprised the chip has not already been hacked, put into permanent test mode and the performance reported. Maybe soon.
- QuotedForTruth 11y ago
  Part of the cost may be the anticipation of lawsuits since the car isnt as advertised anymore. How much less would the car have been worth to people? $1000? Thats 4% of a golf TDI's MSRP. Seems reasonable. 11m cars times $1000 and you're at $11b!
- thaumaturgy 11y ago
  > Why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix? Aside from the costs of a recall and class-action lawsuits, VW will also be looking down the barrel of some pretty ugly EPA fines. I've seen numbers as high as $32,000 per affected sold vehicle. Of course the actual fines will be a lot less, but still probably pretty substantial. > how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? It will depend on the state. In California, owners won't have a choice; if there is an emissions-related recall you have to provide proof that you've had your vehicle repaired as part of the inspection / licensing process. Which then means that vehicles from other states won't sell well to Californians, and other states may well have some kind of similar requirements (though I think California's is the most strict, as usual).
- alkonaut 11y ago
  > how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix As long as the car is under warranty (the first 3 years, for VW in UK for example) the owner is required to service it following the manufacturers recommendation. This pretty much guarantees that at least for 3 years, new cars will be brought to service regularly. If I was a manufacturer of modern cars, I'd include the requirement to always install the latest software at every service, in the terms of the warranty.
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
Given that they did this, then denied it for a year when challenged, surely the big question is: what else are they lying about? Normally you'd assume that basic self-interest would stop a large company from lying too much, but that theory has gone right out the window after these revelations.
- steve19 11y ago
  What else and who else
trhway 11y ago
like always - it wasn't one person doing it, it was large number of people involved ... Reminds me like at some previous employer some years ago a critical security bug was explicitly and openly waived by the product team under leadership of the same PM who had just been foaming that "security is our top priority".
dopamean 11y ago
I wonder if Audi is affected by any of this.
- 1ris 11y ago
  They are.
- mynameisvlad 11y ago
  Yes: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34298259 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34298259 "It affects 2009-14 Jettas, Beetles, Audi A3s and Golfs and 2014-15 Passats." Audi and VW share "platforms" which comprise of the core parts. Current-gen Passat, Golf, and A3, among a few others, all use the MQB platform.
- superuser2 11y ago
  Yes, Audi is a Volkswagen brand and built on the same platform(s).
jacquesm 11y ago
One more reason for publishing the source code to drive-line software in cars. And don't give me nonsense about 'millions of lines of code' (I've heard that before in another context too), an ECU is not 'millions of lines of code'. And as far as VW is concerned this is only the beginning: how many customers are going to sue VW for a sudden decrease in market value / resale value of their vehicle? The damage to the VW brand is enormous, if not fatal. But the damage to 'Made in Germany' and the rest of the German brands is collosal as well. This will surely be reflected in the GDP of Germany for many years to come.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  > One more reason for publishing the source code to drive-line software in cars. And don't give me nonsense about 'millions of lines of code' (I've heard that before in another context too), an ECU is not 'millions of lines of code'. In that case we could have aftermarket parts and/or interoperability. These are bad things that could cut into corporate profits.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    More than 16B worth of profits?
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      Well, getting caught is never part of the corporate strategy. You could always make the revolving door turn a liitle bit faster. VW and BP spill are outliers.
  - famousactress 11y ago
    > In that case we could have aftermarket parts and/or interoperability. These are bad things that could cut into corporate profits. Evidence?
    - venomsnake 11y ago
      About sarcasm?
venomsnake 11y ago
The gift that keeps on giving. It will be interesting to observe the regulators of PIGS and Eastern Europe - will they try and punish the German government over this. They have an axe to grind with Merkel.
DinkyG 11y ago
I'm curious what the reasoning was behind approving a measure which had such a high risk of backfiring very badly for vw. Is it something which was approved higher up or something an engineering team quietly hacked into place to meet an emissions target.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  All it takes is for a team and their direct managers to collude if oversight and review are lacking. As little as 5 people could have known about this, or possibly it went all the way to the top but given the risks I very much doubt that. It's one thing to have errors or bugs, quite another to deliberately mislead the authorities on a major benchmark for vehicle approval. That's way beyond the gray zone.
  - theophrastus 11y ago
    I reasoned that it would have to be 2 people or else any sensible person would know it would eventually get out. Including the executive who had to achieve some engine performance goal (but couldn't handle the software manipulation), and the software engineer (who wouldn't directly have to answer for engine performance goals) "Two may keep counsel when the third's away." --Shakespeare, Titus Andronicus
  - marbu 11y ago
    Given the sheer scale of this, I doubt it is the case.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It's just one engine type as far as I can see.
      - marbu 11y ago
        I see the initial code of this hack as just a begining. Then someone needs to test it with actual cars, maybe tweak it a bit and then make sure it gets deployed on the selected car models while assuring it works without breaking anything else. Moreover this hack was in place for few years ... On the other hand I'm not from the industry, so maybe it would be actually much easier.
JustSomeNobody 11y ago
Are we going to see any prison time for the executives in charge? The DOJ said they'd start seeking it. (Yes, I know it's a German company...)
nulldereference 11y ago
I apologize in advance, but this feels rather un-German... What was the motivating factor in this? This blowout is going to affect so many of VW's lines, and their reputation.
- acomjean 11y ago
  I think money oddly. I had a 98 Jetta TDI (Diesel). The trade off for 45 mpg was pokey performance, even with the turbo. The new ones really drive with pep, like normal cars, so I think they thought they'd sell more with better performance. There is a not insignificant price premium for diesel vehicles. Diesel owners are really really passionate about their cars (no time to redesign their web forums) and "Diesel Gate" is going to hit that loyalty hard. Summary page with graphs: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336 http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336
- jacquesm 11y ago
  It felt un-German up to about a week ago, now it is German and that's a very large problem for Germany. This will affect many more companies than just VW, 'made in Germany' used to stand for something and they just wrecked that (or at a minimum put a serious scratch and a dent in it).
nsnick 11y ago
I don't think VW has hurt their customers in any way. They gave their customers fuel economy and power that was not possible under EPA regulations. I think if anything the current VW Diesels will be more valuable in future as subsequent model years will be crippled by default to satisfy the EPA, and the government has no way to determine if a vehicle has firmware that lies to their equipment without drastically altering their testing procedures.
- gwenboog 11y ago
  Sure VW has hurt their customers. They sold them illegal cars. Those cars can only have the performance they promised if they pollute the environment and break environmental laws. All VW customers should demand full refunds. They were defrauded.
  - nsnick 11y ago
    Did you ask how much NOx your last vehicle emitted when you bought it? Did you see any advertising about NOx emissions? Do you know if/why NOx is considered a pollutant? Did you know that NOx is a substantial constituent of whipped cream? Did you know the other name for NOx is laughing gas? Saying that someone broke the law doesn't mean they did anything ethically wrong. I think it would be an uphill battle to demonstrate if/how VW harmed their customers.
    - bronson 11y ago
      You're confused. N2O (nitrous oxide) is laughing gas, charges some whipped creams, and a severe greenhouse gas. NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) is the automotive combustion product being regulated because it's toxic when inhaled. They're different. "NOx" is the label for a group of chemicals that includes NO2 (the combustion prouduct) but not N2O (laughing gas).
    - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
      >Saying that someone broke the law doesn't mean they did anything ethically wrong. It doesn't?
mschuster91 11y ago
Trickery like this has been long used in the automobile industry. VW is just the first to exaggerate it and getting caught. Not a big deal, imho. There are far bigger threats to the environment than all cars combined - just look at all those freight ships burning bunker fuel, coal power plants emitting more radioactivity than a decades old nuclear plant...
- nsnick 11y ago
  Freight ships are actually very green when compared to airplanes, cars and trains. You have to look at emissions per kg per mile.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    The problem is the fuel itself, as long as you're in international waters you can use as sulphur-rich fuel as you like. Sulphur rich fuel is the cheapest of the lot and because it has no other uses beside international water fuel for freighters, this shit accounts for huge percentages of sulphur emissions. edit: Reason for this is that burning sulphur in fuel produces sulphur dioxide, which when combined with rain or natural humidity, makes acid rain.
  - jfoutz 11y ago
    The engines are really efficient. Unfortunately, the cheapest fuel has a lot of sulphur in it, so there's a lot of sulphur dioxide that comes out of the engine. Low sulphur fuel is 4x the cost. So, yeah. I don't think the cargo ships are villains or anything, but one of them is worth 50 million cars, for that specific type of emission. (cars would be higher, but they're regulated.). Generally it's turning around, different countries are requiring low sulphur fuel, in spite of the cost. The us was January, i think.
    - LeChuck 11y ago
      >Low sulphur fuel is 4x the cost. It's more like double the cost. Your point stands, though. http://www.bunkerworld.com/prices/port/nl/rtm/ http://www.bunkerworld.com/prices/port/nl/rtm/
kw71 11y ago
Rigging cars to pass emissions tests has been a game for a long time. For a long time all you had to do was pass a tailpipe sniff test on a dyno and the car would be held at two slow speeds for the duration of the test, so you'd get results for those kinds of cruising situations but not for acceleration or highway operation. So, cars were adapted to pass these tests. Later when fuel economy rules came about, the same thing happened: the test cycles for fuel economy were examined and cars were changed to achieve better results just for these tests.
- qbrass 11y ago
  http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/pon-0509-1973-emissions-control-systems/ http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/pon-0509-1973-emissions-... Here's an example from the 70's
bane 11y ago
On the flip side, the new line of Honda Accord Hybrids are amazing. Fantastically simple drivetrain, it's basically an electric car where the "batteries" consist of a Li-On buffer bank and a gas-to-electricity 4-cylinder generator that's recruited via a clutch for high-torque/high-horsepower assist to the electric motor. Being driven by an electric motor, torque is instant and constant, there's no transmission to speak of. I've driven one, it's pretty peppy, 0-30 in 2.9 and 0-60 in ~7 seconds (it's a family sedan so I know it's not blowing the doors off of a Tesla, but it's about a full second faster than a Passat TDI) Uses cheap low-octane gasoline and can get 45-50 mpg (like a Prius), and 700 miles on a tank of gas. Emissions are 188 grams/mile (vs. VW's 298 for a Passat TDI). Trickled down Acura active suspension, wider tires than a stock Accord. Priced about the same as a Passat TDI, but with almost Tesla level engine tech and probably more reliable than either on average. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-accord-hybrid-with-video/ http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-a...
dcgoss 11y ago
Can someone track down the devs that wrote the code to dupe the system and do a documentary? I think it would be fascinating, given the ethical decisions that had to be made. Also, what the reaction was inside the company?

86 points by jsnathan 11y ago

kodis 11y ago

There are a couple of questions that I haven't seen addressed on this issue: why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix?; and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power?

15155 11y ago
> and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power Slip it into their vehicle next time they're in for some other routine issue.
- alexpersian 11y ago
  That would cause an even greater scandal than what they are in right now.
- hnal943 11y ago
  Who takes their car to a dealer to have it serviced? Certainly not everyone.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    In the UK all cars need a yearly MOT. https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/the-mot-test I guess most of Europe has something similar.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      But MOT does not require going to a dealer, just to a garage. For sure dealers do this too but it's not a requirement MOT be done by the dealer of the brand.
- AjithAntony 11y ago
  Only let them claim the hypothetical $1000 payout if they come in to flash the ECU.
Handmadeby 11y ago
My assumption is that this is a software issue because it's the engine management system switching to a mode like "sport" or "economy" by changing things like timing, fuel /air mix etc
amatix 11y ago
As a consumer, surely you have a fairly legitimate comeback with "the fuel economy & power is now rubbish, I'd have never bought the car in the first place if it was like that"? Pretty hard for VW to prove otherwise, and I don't know whether the outcome would look like a refund, replacement, or something else... (the first two would cost billions)
- CWuestefeld 11y ago
  Several years back, Hyundai got in trouble for having worse fuel efficiency than their EPA numbers claimed. They had to pay off all owners of that car (I don't recall whether that was due to class action lawsuit, or an agreement with the gov't). So it seems to me that if VW has to detune their engine performance, they'll similarly have to compensate owners of the affected cars.
  - QuotedForTruth 11y ago
    That was easy to do since you could determine the difference in gas cost between advertised and actual performance. How do you value power though?
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle.
    - Evolved 11y ago
      toomuchtodo 4 minutes ago Determine the average sales price of vehicles with the power your car now has after correcting its ECU fuel maps, subtract that from the average sales price of vehicles with the power you advertised. That number you arrive at is the compensation you owe each person who purchased your vehicle. I don't think that would quite work because the new sales would also factor in distrust and changes in consumer perception and taste which further reduces the amount of sales VW might have. You'd essentially have to do this in a vacuum where the updated vehicles' sales were subtracted from the non-updated vehicles and the numbers crunched on the premise that nobody ever found out about this and it was just fixed and swept under the rug. Either way, I like your idea and I hope these owners get adequately compensated for this.
travem 11y ago
> how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? One option would be to make it an automatic fail of the emissions tests for any car where this has not been fixed. This obviously won't work universally but for locations where emissions testing is required periodically this could help move the process along.
bigtech 11y ago
As I understand it, these cars were designed with a simplified system for maintaining low emissions that used fewer parts. Evidently, software can allow the system to pass the emission test but at a significant loss of power.
- BashiBazouk 11y ago
  I've seen a whole bunch of theories about what the practical effect of turning on test mode all the time will do. From the engine is powerful enough that the net effect will just be lower mileage up to power, mileage and reliability will get worse and everything in between. I'm surprised the chip has not already been hacked, put into permanent test mode and the performance reported. Maybe soon.
QuotedForTruth 11y ago
Part of the cost may be the anticipation of lawsuits since the car isnt as advertised anymore. How much less would the car have been worth to people? $1000? Thats 4% of a golf TDI's MSRP. Seems reasonable. 11m cars times $1000 and you're at $11b!
thaumaturgy 11y ago
> Why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much for VW to fix? Aside from the costs of a recall and class-action lawsuits, VW will also be looking down the barrel of some pretty ugly EPA fines. I've seen numbers as high as $32,000 per affected sold vehicle. Of course the actual fines will be a lot less, but still probably pretty substantial. > how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel economy and a decrease in power? It will depend on the state. In California, owners won't have a choice; if there is an emissions-related recall you have to provide proof that you've had your vehicle repaired as part of the inspection / licensing process. Which then means that vehicles from other states won't sell well to Californians, and other states may well have some kind of similar requirements (though I think California's is the most strict, as usual).
alkonaut 11y ago
> how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in for the fix As long as the car is under warranty (the first 3 years, for VW in UK for example) the owner is required to service it following the manufacturers recommendation. This pretty much guarantees that at least for 3 years, new cars will be brought to service regularly. If I was a manufacturer of modern cars, I'd include the requirement to always install the latest software at every service, in the terms of the warranty.

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

Given that they did this, then denied it for a year when challenged, surely the big question is: what else are they lying about? Normally you'd assume that basic self-interest would stop a large company from lying too much, but that theory has gone right out the window after these revelations.

steve19 11y ago
What else and who else

trhway 11y ago

like always - it wasn't one person doing it, it was large number of people involved ... Reminds me like at some previous employer some years ago a critical security bug was explicitly and openly waived by the product team under leadership of the same PM who had just been foaming that "security is our top priority".

dopamean 11y ago

I wonder if Audi is affected by any of this.

1ris 11y ago
They are.
mynameisvlad 11y ago
Yes: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34298259 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34298259 "It affects 2009-14 Jettas, Beetles, Audi A3s and Golfs and 2014-15 Passats." Audi and VW share "platforms" which comprise of the core parts. Current-gen Passat, Golf, and A3, among a few others, all use the MQB platform.
superuser2 11y ago
Yes, Audi is a Volkswagen brand and built on the same platform(s).

jacquesm 11y ago

One more reason for publishing the source code to drive-line software in cars. And don't give me nonsense about 'millions of lines of code' (I've heard that before in another context too), an ECU is not 'millions of lines of code'. And as far as VW is concerned this is only the beginning: how many customers are going to sue VW for a sudden decrease in market value / resale value of their vehicle? The damage to the VW brand is enormous, if not fatal. But the damage to 'Made in Germany' and the rest of the German brands is collosal as well. This will surely be reflected in the GDP of Germany for many years to come.

venomsnake 11y ago
> One more reason for publishing the source code to drive-line software in cars. And don't give me nonsense about 'millions of lines of code' (I've heard that before in another context too), an ECU is not 'millions of lines of code'. In that case we could have aftermarket parts and/or interoperability. These are bad things that could cut into corporate profits.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  More than 16B worth of profits?
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    Well, getting caught is never part of the corporate strategy. You could always make the revolving door turn a liitle bit faster. VW and BP spill are outliers.
- famousactress 11y ago
  > In that case we could have aftermarket parts and/or interoperability. These are bad things that could cut into corporate profits. Evidence?
  - venomsnake 11y ago
    About sarcasm?

venomsnake 11y ago

The gift that keeps on giving. It will be interesting to observe the regulators of PIGS and Eastern Europe - will they try and punish the German government over this. They have an axe to grind with Merkel.

DinkyG 11y ago

I'm curious what the reasoning was behind approving a measure which had such a high risk of backfiring very badly for vw. Is it something which was approved higher up or something an engineering team quietly hacked into place to meet an emissions target.

jacquesm 11y ago
All it takes is for a team and their direct managers to collude if oversight and review are lacking. As little as 5 people could have known about this, or possibly it went all the way to the top but given the risks I very much doubt that. It's one thing to have errors or bugs, quite another to deliberately mislead the authorities on a major benchmark for vehicle approval. That's way beyond the gray zone.
- theophrastus 11y ago
  I reasoned that it would have to be 2 people or else any sensible person would know it would eventually get out. Including the executive who had to achieve some engine performance goal (but couldn't handle the software manipulation), and the software engineer (who wouldn't directly have to answer for engine performance goals) "Two may keep counsel when the third's away." --Shakespeare, Titus Andronicus
- marbu 11y ago
  Given the sheer scale of this, I doubt it is the case.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It's just one engine type as far as I can see.
    - marbu 11y ago
      I see the initial code of this hack as just a begining. Then someone needs to test it with actual cars, maybe tweak it a bit and then make sure it gets deployed on the selected car models while assuring it works without breaking anything else. Moreover this hack was in place for few years ... On the other hand I'm not from the industry, so maybe it would be actually much easier.

JustSomeNobody 11y ago

Are we going to see any prison time for the executives in charge? The DOJ said they'd start seeking it. (Yes, I know it's a German company...)

nulldereference 11y ago

I apologize in advance, but this feels rather un-German... What was the motivating factor in this? This blowout is going to affect so many of VW's lines, and their reputation.

acomjean 11y ago
I think money oddly. I had a 98 Jetta TDI (Diesel). The trade off for 45 mpg was pokey performance, even with the turbo. The new ones really drive with pep, like normal cars, so I think they thought they'd sell more with better performance. There is a not insignificant price premium for diesel vehicles. Diesel owners are really really passionate about their cars (no time to redesign their web forums) and "Diesel Gate" is going to hit that loyalty hard. Summary page with graphs: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336 http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336
jacquesm 11y ago
It felt un-German up to about a week ago, now it is German and that's a very large problem for Germany. This will affect many more companies than just VW, 'made in Germany' used to stand for something and they just wrecked that (or at a minimum put a serious scratch and a dent in it).

nsnick 11y ago

I don't think VW has hurt their customers in any way. They gave their customers fuel economy and power that was not possible under EPA regulations. I think if anything the current VW Diesels will be more valuable in future as subsequent model years will be crippled by default to satisfy the EPA, and the government has no way to determine if a vehicle has firmware that lies to their equipment without drastically altering their testing procedures.

gwenboog 11y ago
Sure VW has hurt their customers. They sold them illegal cars. Those cars can only have the performance they promised if they pollute the environment and break environmental laws. All VW customers should demand full refunds. They were defrauded.
- nsnick 11y ago
  Did you ask how much NOx your last vehicle emitted when you bought it? Did you see any advertising about NOx emissions? Do you know if/why NOx is considered a pollutant? Did you know that NOx is a substantial constituent of whipped cream? Did you know the other name for NOx is laughing gas? Saying that someone broke the law doesn't mean they did anything ethically wrong. I think it would be an uphill battle to demonstrate if/how VW harmed their customers.
  - bronson 11y ago
    You're confused. N2O (nitrous oxide) is laughing gas, charges some whipped creams, and a severe greenhouse gas. NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) is the automotive combustion product being regulated because it's toxic when inhaled. They're different. "NOx" is the label for a group of chemicals that includes NO2 (the combustion prouduct) but not N2O (laughing gas).
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    >Saying that someone broke the law doesn't mean they did anything ethically wrong. It doesn't?

mschuster91 11y ago

Trickery like this has been long used in the automobile industry. VW is just the first to exaggerate it and getting caught. Not a big deal, imho. There are far bigger threats to the environment than all cars combined - just look at all those freight ships burning bunker fuel, coal power plants emitting more radioactivity than a decades old nuclear plant...

nsnick 11y ago
Freight ships are actually very green when compared to airplanes, cars and trains. You have to look at emissions per kg per mile.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  The problem is the fuel itself, as long as you're in international waters you can use as sulphur-rich fuel as you like. Sulphur rich fuel is the cheapest of the lot and because it has no other uses beside international water fuel for freighters, this shit accounts for huge percentages of sulphur emissions. edit: Reason for this is that burning sulphur in fuel produces sulphur dioxide, which when combined with rain or natural humidity, makes acid rain.
- jfoutz 11y ago
  The engines are really efficient. Unfortunately, the cheapest fuel has a lot of sulphur in it, so there's a lot of sulphur dioxide that comes out of the engine. Low sulphur fuel is 4x the cost. So, yeah. I don't think the cargo ships are villains or anything, but one of them is worth 50 million cars, for that specific type of emission. (cars would be higher, but they're regulated.). Generally it's turning around, different countries are requiring low sulphur fuel, in spite of the cost. The us was January, i think.
  - LeChuck 11y ago
    >Low sulphur fuel is 4x the cost. It's more like double the cost. Your point stands, though. http://www.bunkerworld.com/prices/port/nl/rtm/ http://www.bunkerworld.com/prices/port/nl/rtm/

kw71 11y ago

Rigging cars to pass emissions tests has been a game for a long time. For a long time all you had to do was pass a tailpipe sniff test on a dyno and the car would be held at two slow speeds for the duration of the test, so you'd get results for those kinds of cruising situations but not for acceleration or highway operation. So, cars were adapted to pass these tests. Later when fuel economy rules came about, the same thing happened: the test cycles for fuel economy were examined and cars were changed to achieve better results just for these tests.

qbrass 11y ago
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/pon-0509-1973-emissions-control-systems/ http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/pon-0509-1973-emissions-... Here's an example from the 70's

bane 11y ago

On the flip side, the new line of Honda Accord Hybrids are amazing. Fantastically simple drivetrain, it's basically an electric car where the "batteries" consist of a Li-On buffer bank and a gas-to-electricity 4-cylinder generator that's recruited via a clutch for high-torque/high-horsepower assist to the electric motor. Being driven by an electric motor, torque is instant and constant, there's no transmission to speak of. I've driven one, it's pretty peppy, 0-30 in 2.9 and 0-60 in ~7 seconds (it's a family sedan so I know it's not blowing the doors off of a Tesla, but it's about a full second faster than a Passat TDI) Uses cheap low-octane gasoline and can get 45-50 mpg (like a Prius), and 700 miles on a tank of gas. Emissions are 188 grams/mile (vs. VW's 298 for a Passat TDI). Trickled down Acura active suspension, wider tires than a stock Accord. Priced about the same as a Passat TDI, but with almost Tesla level engine tech and probably more reliable than either on average. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-accord-hybrid-with-video/ http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-a...

dcgoss 11y ago

Can someone track down the devs that wrote the code to dupe the system and do a documentary? I think it would be fascinating, given the ethical decisions that had to be made. Also, what the reaction was inside the company?