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Ernst and Young drops degree classification threshold for graduate recruitment
- rcurry 11y agoMaggie Stilwell, EY’s managing partner for talent, said the changes would “open up opportunities for talented individuals regardless of their background and provide greater access to the profession”.
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- gmac 11y agoMy wife's employer instituted a similar policy: instead of a qualification requirement, they now ask candidates to do a lengthy take-home exercise. Her experience is that, if anything, it's actually damaging for accessibility, because in practice the candidates who have the confidence (and possibly outside help) to do well are pretty well exclusively the ones with traditional backgrounds, a sense of entitlement, and high grades from good institutions.
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- harigov 11y agoI haven't gotten a clue but why do we need accounting firm in this day and age? Aren't those already automated?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- milhous 11y agoCompanies like them and Deloitte still offer traditional auditing and accounting services, but their cash cow is mostly in IT contracting for government and Fortune 500-type companies.
- markvdb 11y agoNot to mention that when it comes to accounting and fiscal advice, they're more tax avoidance companies than accounting companies. Take away the big four, and I wonder if $tech_multinational would dare to play things like the double Irish for some time. Just as an example, have a closer look at EU commission president Juncker's activities in his former job in Luxemburg, and you'll see what I mean.
- gaius 11y agoYou're thinking about bookkeeping. Accounting is about advice.
- noja 11y agoGood choice, but let the crash begin!
- jakozaur 11y agoGreat step! I wonder how it translate into action: 1. Lack of degree will not be a filter, but you need to be genius if you don't have it. 2. Lack of degree is a setback, but still can get through. 3. Just consider skills, interview/internship performance.
- tormeh 11y agoThe big consultancies don't really give a crap what you studied or what skills you have, they just want your intelligence and self-discipline. Now they're dropping the assumption that not having a degree means you're not smart. Nothing more, and nothing less. (Everything I've ever heard about these consultancies suggest they are very bad places to work, if anyone's tempted)
- codingdave 11y agoPeople who join consultancies at the start of their career are normally not doing it because it is a good place to work. Instead, it is a launching point. Experience, money, and the "up or out" management style which means you'll have rapid advancement until you start to stagnate, then you leave on your own personal path. Some will succeed, some will not. To me, it seems like a path for management-minded individuals that is analogous to doing YC for your startup. Put all your life into it, play the games with the people who have money, most people will wash out early, but a few notables will become wealthy and have a powerful network to continue your career.
- DCKing 11y agoTo be fair, the workplace quality of these consultancies is really dependant on which country you work in. There are barely any good stories about the U.S. member firms, but I know from experience that they can be a great and rewarding place to work in Europe.
- bluedino 11y ago4. Have no degree and get paid 1/2 as much for same job
- zkhalique 11y agoBoom! This is big.
- jamessb 11y agoThe title for the HN submission is currently very misleading. HN headline: "Ernst and Young Drops Degree Requirement for Recruitment" THE headline: "Ernst and Young drops degree classification threshold for graduate recruitment" The meaning is very different: the first suggests you no longer need to have a degree at all; the second merely suggests you no longer need to have done well in your degree. Also worth noting is that Ernst and Young already had a 'EY School Leaver Programme' (5 year training programme for people direct from school).
- rcurry 11y agoThanks for pointing this out - a friend emailed me this link with that subject line, I apologize for any confusion guys.
- NDizzle 11y agoAs someone who has earned a top performance award at a big 4 accounting firm, I think they should drop the requirement entirely. I have an Arkansas high school education. I came to work there through an acquisition.
- throw_for_throw 11y ago>Instead, the company will use numerical tests and online “strength” assessments to assess the potential of applicants. I'm not certain that focusing on numeracy tests to assess an applicant is such a great step forward. I get the sense that this will only encourage candidates to "study for the test" and will actually produce more false positives.
- blazespin 11y agoThis is a very long time coming. So extremely talented individuals who had to work through university (and so grades suffered) will have an opportunity to compete on a level playing ground. TBH, this makes sense. Many of the well rounded / think for yourself / independent people I met in university were supporting themselves while in University.
- jsprogrammer 11y agoDoes E&Y really want well rounded / think for yourself / independent people? Or do they want people who will learn the regulations; who will apply them ruthlessly; and who are always acting to maximize the profitability of the company?
- blazespin 11y agoIf it's a matter of doing what you're told, computers are great for that. Complex problems that require human level intelligence require people who can make localized decisions without being hand held all the way through. The problem of new grads that performed well at university is that they are best at solving narrow, well defined problems. If that's all that E&Y is doing, I question whether they are providing any competitive value.
- jsprogrammer 11y agoSure, but that requires sufficient hardware and a willing programmer.
- blazespin 11y agoYes, one would assume a forward thinking, competitive accounting firm is developing such software / hardware. Who's going to be more successful in the future? The accounting firm with an army of yes men that do what they're told, or the accounting firm with extremely talented / hardworking / creative individuals working alongside computers doing all the grunt work? I think E&Y recognizes that all the assembly line aspects of their job is rapidly vanishing and what's left is the hard part that has no clear, easy answers.
- gjkood 11y agoKudos to E&Y for taking a radical approach to hiring. However, as a concerned parent, I hope impressionable youngsters don't mistake this for 'Yay, I don't have to go to college to get a decent job anymore'. The lifetime earnings for a college degree holder[1] is probably a lot more than for those without a degree. If you can afford it, go to college. If you can help it, don't drop out. Get that degree. If possible, get a Masters degree. Those six years staying in school getting your undergraduate and graduate degrees, will make a huge difference in the rest of your life We are not all destined to found unicorns or be an early employee in one. For the rest of us mortals, going to college will make a difference. Even a Thiel Fellow probably needs to be admitted to a very competitive school to drop out and get the Thiel Fellowship. [1] Forbes; http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/05/05/federal-reserve-college-education-worth-830000-more-than-high-school-diploma/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/troyonink/2014/05/05/federal-res...
- mkaziz 11y agoDoes getting that graduate degree help? I stuck it out for the degree (Computer Science), and I don't think it helped much with my job prospects. I get paid the same as my peers who only did undergrad.
- blazespin 11y agoI don't think a Masters helps that much, but a PHD does, especially in AI.
- gjkood 11y agoIn certain parts of the country (the Bay Area), that need people with specialized/advanced knowledge in CS (which a Masters would definitely provide), I would expect that your graduate CS degree will definitely give you a leg up on those without one. If you have an undergraduate degree in a non-CS subject but you get a graduate degree in CS, your will have about the same or better knowledge than a person with a graduate degree in CS. Of course, there is a great amount of subjectivity given to the School that you attended and your work experience after that.
- jfim 11y ago
- gcb0 11y agoE&Y handled my taxes when i moved countries. They made so many rookies mistakes on both sides i doubted they even required literacy to work there.
- gjkood 11y agoMy reply is not intended to insult anyone associated with the Big 4/5 firms. In my experience, the model is to get one or two really smart people into the client and then a boatload of rookies to pump up the billing machine. Every client is a training on the job experience for the rookies.
- erics32 11y agoThis has been my experience as well at PWC. There are one or two seniors on the team while the rest of the team is staffed with interns/new associates/coop students.
- _pmf_ 11y agocough IBM cough
- Havoc 11y agoYou don't sound particularly impressed. Despite you're misgivings about the rookies, these firms have effectively rolled the old master & apprentice system forward into the 21st century. The billing machine you mention is also not quite right. In practice the vast majority of the fees negotiated up front (often on tender basis) & driven by hours only on paper. So effectively the Big 4 firm loses money if there are freeloader rookies on board (revenue stays the same, staff costs go up).
- gjkood 11y agoI can definitely understand the value of a Big 4 firm when it comes to accounting/auditing. It is the IT Consultancy part that I have concerns with. I understand the value of the Master & Apprentice model. However I would rather not pay for the Apprentice's training myself. I know there was a push for separating the Accounting/Auditing side from the IT consultancy side after the Enron and related scandals but they have probably coalesced back together.
- McP 11y agoGood! Having done a lot of recruiting recently I've noticed no correlation between degree classification and problem solving ability. I have a 2:2 myself :)
- McP 11y agoGood! Having done a lot of recruiting recently I've noticed no correlation between degree classification and problem solving ability. I have a 2:2 myself :)
- fareesh 11y agoThis is a great step. In several cases, degrees can be a good way to filter applicants, but having them as mandatory requirements in these cases can sometimes deny a potentially good candidate an opportunity. For example, I know a lot of great front-end engineers who don't know what Big O is.
- nichochar 11y agoI think this is a good move, but I'm worried that people will understand it as "education is useless, I should go work". The problem here is very obviously that most educational systems are completely broken. The american one maybe the most, since it's so "famous". I come from France, I had a better education than you can get probably anywhere in the world (I went to les Mines de Paris, roughly equivalent to the top 10% of MIT), and EVERYTHING, since I was 5 years old, was free and based on merit. This leads to people with degrees actually being much more performant in the workplace. I am 100% sure this study would have opposite results in France, as it is very easy to look at what the alumni of my school go to become. People, education is primordial, paying for education is a sin that brings all this shit out. Someone needs to fix this, and probably no one will in my lifetime in america, it is very sad
- learnstats2 11y agoI understand it that E&Y's priorities are not with successfully educated candidates. Who can easily get onto degree courses (but may not be successful there), and then easily be coached through online tests? One type of person: rich people with connections.
- lmm 11y agoDepends very much on the course, I think, and the university. I was the only kid from my high school applying to Cambridge, and what prep they gave me was quite misguided, but I don't think it's possible to fake the process (in-person, test with ten hard problems (not requiring any knowledge outside the standard high school course, just more problem-solving ability) where you're not expected to solve more than two or three, then discussing them with your interviewers). I felt like there was some of what you describe with the people I met in humanities courses (of course you can attribute some of that to STEM snobbery), but on the side I saw, once you applied (and sure, I suspect there are people with the ability but without the wealth or connections who are too intimidated to apply), they wanted the best, and I'm sure they got them.
- learnstats2 11y ago
- markbnj 11y agoI'm somewhat shocked. This feels sort of like the Borg saying you don't need to assimilate anymore. Just be who you are! +1 for E&Y.
- m3talridl3y 11y agoWell duh. If we don't need degrees to create computer programs, then why would someone need a degree for any other job in the world, which just involve pushing buttons on software programs we create?
- phpnode 11y agoI really hope this was a sarcastic comment. Personally, I prefer my doctors, lawyers and nuclear physicists to have formal qualifications.
- sumitviii 11y agoI think OP was talking about jobs at Instagram for dogpoop of Chihuahua.
- aianus 11y ago> Personally, I prefer my doctors ... to have formal qualifications. Why? So they can charge you more? You know medical school in the US is pass/fail and has a 96% graduation rate? Its completion at that point is practically meaningless. And all so I have to pay $50 to get a vaccine administered because nobody is allowed to prescribe one without a $250k medical degree.
- rifung 11y agoI don't see an issue with a 96% graduation rate when med schools are incredibly difficult to get in to. Not only that but even within med schools, depending on how well you do you might not get in to specific programs; for example you have to do better to be a surgeon than to be a general physician. If they didn't have a 96% graduation rate I think we would be screwed because we already do not have enough doctors as it is. And with med schools it's not like you can increase the number of students easily as each student requires a lot of resources due to requiring residency and things like that.
- aianus 11y ago
- eruditely 11y agoI don't have a degree and I'm glad to hear this, I would rather I be tested on my knowledge and get a job over people who hardly know anything.
- Kinnard 11y agoMany, but I'd not say all, blanket degree requirements are a unfair and inefficiency-driving discriminatory practice along the lines of the criminal record check-box. We need a ban the box campaign for academic credentials so that applicants are judged on their skill and merit and not on too often flimsy credentials.