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I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just trying to find a justification. Having something that says you can only can come in if you are "Black, Hispanic, Women, V
by arturventura 11y ago
I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just trying to find a justification. Having something that says you can only can come in if you are "Black, Hispanic, Women, Veterans, and International founders" kinda racist as fuck? It sounds exactly like segregation to me.
Again, not trying to be a troll. Not American, just trying to understand.
- justizin 11y agoBecause, at least in America, all of the time is 'white male time', and people of color and women often feel intimidated in spaces that are dominated in this way, so efforts are made to encourage a focus on marginalized people.
- arturventura 11y agoI see. It just that the concept just feels weird to me, targeting specifically a few types of people. I suspect having that here where I'm from (Portugal), would have been construed as being racist. Again, not being a troll, just trying to understand.
- softawre 11y agoA lot of Americans think this is racist too. It's basis is rooted in the fact that "white people" still haven't repaid "black people" for slavery.
- djtriptych 11y agoNote to reader: Generally you want to replace "A lot of Americans" with "I" in statements like this.
- anigbrowl 11y agoHow much structural discrimination is there in Portuguese society?
- spinlock 11y agoEurope is pretty anti Arab these days.
- colmvp 11y agoNotice that it's Black and Hispanic, and not Asian? At least Asian women might have dedicated office hours ("We will start with Black and Hispanic founders and if successful we hope to launch future Open Office Hours for Women, Veterans, and International founders.") Always seems like Asian men in the U.S. get the 'worst' of being a minority. Neither the societal advantages of white majority, nor the ability to access services available to Hispanics/Blacks or women.
- balls187 11y agoAs an Asian man in the US, I have to say, it ain't so bad getting the "worst" of being a minority.
- djtriptych 11y agoAsian men are not underrepresented in the tech industry.
- atg2 11y ago"Asian" is not a race.
- tptacek 11y agoWhat's your point? Neither is "military veteran".
- dragonwriter 11y agoAsian is as much a race as White or Black is. (All races are social constructed with culturally-ascribed boundaries, so really, anything that is generally perceived and treated as a race is a race; even if you restrict it to three "classical" races, White, Black, and Asian are pretty much the modern names for Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid.)
- atg2 11y agoMy point is, what about all the other people? The world is not divided into White, Black, Asian and Spanish-speaking. There are Indians, Central Asians, Arabs, Persians... Even 19th century racialists in their ignorant understanding of the world didn't lump 2/3 of the world's population into a miscellaneous category.
- 78666cdc 11y ago>all of the time is "white male time" Like black churches and communities, professional women's societies, women's shelters, scholarships for women, women's clubs at schools, and so on? In elementary schools, where >90% of teachers are female? Among psychology majors, with 60-70% women? Do you really suggest that it is always "white male time" everywhere? Go ask a white kid growing up in a mostly black, poor neighborhood whether he feels like it's "his time." Initiatives like this should be based on socioeconomics, not race.
- balls187 11y ago> Go ask a white kid growing up in a mostly black, poor neighborhood whether he feels like it's "his time." Yo Eminem, what do you think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminem#1972.E2.80.9391:_Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminem#1972.E2.80.9391:_Early_...
- 78666cdc 11y agoBy your logic, there are no social disadvantages for blacks either, because Jay-Z. Which is clearly false.
- balls187 11y agoStrawman. I made no mention of social disadvantages. I merely pointed out that Eminem fits the description of hypothetical "white kid" the parent commenter referenced.
- tptacek 11y agoHave you spent any time in or near a predominantly black church? There's one on my corner. There's white people there all the time. And did you really just suggest that "women's shelters" somehow advantage women over men? Suggested Google search: [lucky ducky comic]. You might also enjoy the editorial cartoon stylings of Stan Kelly.
- 78666cdc 11y ago
- tptacek 11y agoI'm not trying to be a troll ... kinda racist as fuck?
- arturventura 11y agoI'm sorry if I came across as trollish, I was just trying to reinforce how weird the concept is to me.
- eli 11y agoThere's probably a less confrontational way to phrase the question if you're looking to have a meaningful discussion. Are you confused by the concept of affirmative action? It's not a new idea and there's a considerable body of academic research and opinions for and against it online.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- cglee 11y agoGroup X is not well represented, due to many factors. We can't address those factors, but we can help Group X in our organization.
- tptacek 11y agoRacism is a pretty heavily charged accusation to make, and you made it very casually. I believe you weren't trying to troll, but rather than repeatedly saying "I don't mean to be a troll", you might have better luck by being more careful about how you phrase your concerns. That's all.
- bakhy 11y agowhen certain groups are underrepresented, then doing something proactive to improve that is not racism, it's fighting against it. IMO social context is key. it's asymmetric, and to fix it, you need asymmetric action. if the scale is tipped to one side, then to balance it out, you add some weight to the other.
- ignoramceisblis 11y agoWhat is "under-representation"? How do you measure it, and how do you determine when all "certain groups" (which are what, exactly?) are "represented" proportionately? These are serious questions. How do we decide: what groups should be represented (what about ugly individuals? people with specific disabilities?), and when everything is all "fair"?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- djtriptych 11y agoA look at the actual racial distribution of every major tech company hurts your point here.
- mwseibel 11y agoGood question! My best answer is that many members of these groups have an even harder time starting a startup. In addition to all the normal outreach we do to all startup founders (6500+ applied for the last batch) we also want to do targeted outreach to underrepresented groups in order to close the gap.
- gagmaker 11y ago> harder time starting a startup and you certain its all due to their skin color etc? Sorry, I'm having a hard time to believe it. > we also want to do targeted outreach to underrepresented Having that much resources to invest (limited, are they?), you likely will end up funding a business based on founder's skin color. Sorry, but that how it looks like from outside.
- pixelcloud 11y agoIt's basically designed to the ycombinator staff can not be subconsciously racist towards founders. If a group applied with a great idea in the "normal" pool of applicants I suspect they would fair perfectly find against the 6500+ applications. Obviously, YCombinator is worried about their image and cannot figure out how to "close the gap" without this.
- pavornyoh 11y ago@Pixelcloud, very well put!!
- 13thLetter 11y ago"It's basically designed to the ycombinator staff can not be subconsciously racist towards founders." Which brings up another interesting point. Are all the ycombinator staff comfortable with being accused of being racists? What would happen to any ycombinator staff who publicly objected to this accusation?
- danenania 11y ago
- gr8b8m8-88 11y agoJust apply anyway if you're European American, Asian-American, or have familial originals in the Balkans / Middle East / SEA. Playing the race card is a political move various corporations' head-honchos in the spotlight of society must submit to doing in America, but it doesn't mean they aren't willing to help someone who is a "gem in the rough" and earnestly needs their help just because that person isn't black / hispanic / woman. But say you submit two applications of virtually same quality except one is stereotypical black/hispanic/woman, and the other stereotypical white, and the latter gets rejected, then you have a case regarding true racism, as oppose to just political correctness.
- djtriptych 11y agoYour above example assumes one cannot quantify the adverse effects of modern American racism.
- officialchicken 11y agoWhenever you are confused about our culture, just try following the money... problem + buzz + market = opportunity. These are good capitalist VC's acting normally, nothing unusual about it. And if I didn't miss it already, I wouldn't be surprised at a diversity-focused startup fund announcement some time very soon. In this light, this announcement is probably a test/market research for that fund.
- tptacek 11y agoDo you have some special insight about YC you can relate to us showing why that isn't just a bunch of stuff you made up?
- officialchicken 11y agoHe wasn't asking about YC, he was asking about the culture. Is there a reason you're so defensive? I can find links to YC "trying to open markets", but it's 2015, and I don't think you are dumb.
- tptacek 11y agoI'm not defensive about criticisms of this YC program, although I find all of them preposterous. My hackles are, however, raised by the virulent strain of HN comments written by anonymous users confidently asserting that they understand the motives of people they've never met. The word "probably" in the comment upthread is where the switch flipped in my brain that made me respond. Oh really? Probably, you say? Please tell us more. You've made an assertion; it's right there in the thread. Now stand by it and back it up with evidence.
- officialchicken 11y agoSince when can anon's can post on HN? Where's the word "probably" in my response that set you off? How can or why should I respond to you about assertions made by others? Please stop projecting your need for social justice on me, for or against - my only assertion is 'follow the money', and that's more of a fact of life of living in the USA than anything else.
- notNow 11y agoWell, at face value this could be construed as an act of "Affirmative Action". Some people in non white groups could view it as patronizing or condemn as an act of "white saviorship" or an extension of the "white man's burden" philosophy. Other critics on the other end of the spectrum would view it as counter-productive and enforcing of racial division lines or taken to an extreme as "reverse racism". I on the other tend to give people the benefit of doubt before rushing to judgements. The fact that they excluded Asians whether for the East or the South from the preferential treatment makes me think that they're acting in good faith and with the best intentions till further notice. BTW: I am not Caucasian. Since we brought up race in this discussion.
- lbotos 11y agoRecently in my workplace (I'm white/male, 11 person team is lead by 2 white males) we've been working on refocusing our branding on "Tech Entrepreneurs". Quick. Name the first person you think of when you here that? What do they look like? Probably white, twenty something, male. This was a problem for our team because we are trying to target more than that. We know we are, but communicating that and reaching more people is hard. It's cemented in our bias, but yeah, still, we realize that "tech" is a lot of "younger white dudes". This effort by YC is just trying to change that by making a safe place for people outside of "the norm" to be acknowledged and encouraged.
- Mz 11y agoIt is kind of a brute force methodology, but it is kind of all we have. We would need a more elegant understanding of the problem space in order to address such things effectively without relying on some kind of racism/classism/OtherIsm to select for who needs some help getting a leg up when they are routinely left out by our current processes. Perhaps we can gain that understanding, but if it already existed, we wouldn't have the problems we currently have. So perhaps not a good time to hold out for some perfect solution.
- sealthedeal 11y agoI agree. I understand the societal difficulties these various ethnicities have, but it just furthers segregation, at least from my perspective.
- compbio 11y agoIt is not racism. Racism is the attitude/belief that one race is superior to another race. Also military veteran is not a race. It is discrimination. Discrimination is having applicants use 23andMe to prove that they are more black than white, so you can give them a different preferential treatment. Next to making the world a better place through more black startup founders, this is a PR move. Paul Graham stopped posting on YC around the time of those terrible threads on females in tech. Hackernews became renowned for their toxic response to these issues. You can still see some of that in the rest of this thread and in my comment. What followed was Female Founders and this initiative. This discriminatory trend will only continue. YC thinks it can make their startup portfolio more diverse, by adding more black startup founders. In this lies the hidden assumption that black founders act or think differently than white founders. The terrible alternative being that YC judges the diversity of their portfolio on the skin color of their founders.
- johnathanNYC 11y agoThis was incredibly hard to read, but you are correct in one thing, it is not racism. It's Institutional racism, which is any system of inequality based on race.